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Aversion and the 2nd house?
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1368
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Summarizing. Reply with quote

Good evening Clelia,

Clelia Romano wrote:

Okay Margherita, first of all what is the Hellenistic method you´re referring to when saying that Ptolemy did not follow it?


The method of ascensions. For being clear for example the one mentioned in Paulus Alexandrinus, chap.34 On crisis.

Quote:

Secondly, in the phrase:"in the prorogation from the horoscope a number equal to the times of ascension in the latitude concerned", I understand that he is using the ascensions of the signs.
Robert Schmidt and Robert hand in their commentaries of the directions in Ptolemy quote Hephaisto, Book 2, chapter 11, explaining the method to the region of Hellesponto.


I don't have that book but surely Robert Schdmidt and Robert Hand write there that Ptolemy uses oblique ascensions for directions to Asc, RA for directions to MC, and "something else" for intermediate points.


Quote:

It is a long explanation, and perhaps here is not the place to put these comments, perhaps in other thread...


There is no need of explanation. You have the three examples of III book of Tetrabiblos. See by yourself if Ptolemy is using ascensions method or something else.
Try the Hellenistic method and try "Placidean" (no under the pole) and see which fits.

margherita
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hervaro wrote:
Quote:
There are some interesting mitigations that might help explain the remarkable reversal of fortune that permitted Bannatyne to become so wealthy.


Also, being a night-chart, the triplicity rulers of his sect-light are in order: Jupiter, Sun, Saturn (Moon in Aries).
Jupiter, governing the 1st part of life is miserably placed in his fall and (most important) cadent. Indeed, not a good period.
2nd part of life comes under the responsibility of the Sun. He is badly placed essentially, but mighty in the pivot of the 7th (and as you noted, the King has raised and taken Mercury ruler of the 2nd sign, to sit on his Lap on the Throne!).
3d part of life is (will be) taken care of by Saturn. Saturn is peregrine yet still has some power by placement in succedent house. One might fear though that some of this man's richness will dissappear, or be taken away... (Saturn retro).

But/and Jupiter together with Venus being in Fortuna's 7th house, with Fortuna's dispositor itself (the Moon, the Light of the Time) in the 10th house of Fortuna, certainly will have helped (and keep on helping)!

Herman


How do you know when each part of life begins?
I am 50,so I thought I was entering third part??!! Confused
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4981
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damon wrote:
Quote:
How do you know when each part of life begins? I am 50,so I thought I was entering third part??!!


Fair question!

The first step would be to calculate the Hyleg /Natal Predominator as the ancient and medieval astrologers did. There were quite a lot of variations on how to calculate the Hyleg/Predominator and you see different approaches between astrologers like Ptolemy, Valens and Antiochus-Porphyry.

Each planet in ancient astrology had its own cycle lasting the same amount of years as its synodic cycle.

The three rulers preside over a portion of the person's life. The condition of the first ruler will show the condition of life during the years of the cycle of that planet - ie A person born with an air sign hyleg/predominator during the day is ruled by Saturn for the first 30 years of life, then ages 30 to 50 are ruled by the condition of Mercury, Then the condition of Jupiter blends with these for the rest of the lifetime.

Synodic cycles of the planets (Minor periods):

Sun 19 years
Moon 25 years
Mercury 20 years
Venus 8 years
Mars 15 years
Jupiter 12 years
Saturn 30 years

The whole issue of the Hyleg and Alchoden is quite complicated and gets more so in medieval and renaissance astrology. This article by Bernadette Brady goes some way to explain the intricacies of the topic:

http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf

Mark
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:46 am    Post subject: Aversion and the 2nd house Reply with quote

Good morning,

Obviously, one cannot delineate something (aversion) when one is not sure what it refers to (topical place). Some modern schools of astrology, ex. gr. Herr Reinhard Ebertin's Aalen School (also know as 'cosmobiology'), dispensed with astrological houses altogether. Others rejected all popular quadrant systems due to their results in polar regions.

As far as historians know to date (i have not read all of them Smile ), Hellenistic astrologers including Klaudios Ptolomaios did not work with tables of houses but with tables of ascension times of signs by zones of geographical latitude. Calculations of semi-arcs, if and when performed, were interpolated from such tables. Apparently, some tables of ascension times of ecliptical constellations or bright stars thereof were also used, perhaps concurrently, as these are easier to observe.

In view of the few and inconclusive references in Tetrabiblos, Ptolemy was not 'house happy' in contrast to ex. gr. Monsieur Jean-Baptiste Morin de Villefranche. The 5 degrees offset mentioned apparently intended to include pivotal phenomena based on primary motion. Thus, to me it seems that 5 degrees measured in right ascension might be more appropriate than in ecliptical longitude. Perhaps i might gain astrological fame and immortality by amending the 'classical' houses system accordingly, copyrighting and publishing it. Smile

Of course it seems convenient as Signora Margherita has stated to use the same system for places of topical delineations and for directions. Proponents of primary directions according to Herr Johannes Müller of Königsberg, Bavaria, (Regiomontanus), generally apply his house system as well. From a practical perspective, for lives lasting a few decades, using the same key, ex. gr. Ptolemy's, the dates of primary directions yielded by Müller's system often differ by years from those yielded by Placido di Titi's. If one has a fairly accurate birth time (within some minutes) and exact salient event times, comparison is not difficult.

If one includes house Al-Mubtazz, however, whole sign houses are much simpler in practice because, once the astrologer has selected parameters of essential dignities, the Al-Mubtazz per sign is constant.

To the meagre extent of my knowledge, no proper scientific, statistical investigations have been conducted to date to ascertain if a) the notion of topical places as such is valid and, if so, b) which system. Much speculation, little organised data - a feeding frenzy for sceptics.

Best regards,

lihin
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark
In my ZET software when I click in Firdaria I see Period -Jupiter. Is that what youre referring to?
But I cant find calculation for Hyleg there
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4981
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi damon,

My apologies as I rather confused matters above.

Essentially, there are two basic views on how to work with triiplicity ruler periods.

The hellenistic view (according to Robert Schmidt, Chris Brennan etc) seems to have been to divide the life into two basic periods with the third participating ruler having an influence throughout both periods of life.

However, in medieval astrology this was applied differently with the life divided into three periods controlled by each of the triplicity rulers.

I refer you to this old thread on the topic. In particular the comments of astrojin which are typically excellent in summarising the topic.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4299&sid=2b89243a9bd55b0557af828bb172b4b9

Mark
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