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Aversion and the 2nd house?
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Herman:

I´m at the gym and here we have a computer to use, do you believe in the middle of an exercise I realized that the division by whole signs messed up my mind! The ASC was at 23 Leo so the DSC was in the same opposite degree and...it is a nocturnal chart as you said, so we have to deal with the Moon, to give testimony of the 3 periods of life

I will write more later: back to the exercices!

regards

Clelia
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark, Clelia, Herman and all

Mark wrote:
Venus in Capricorn located in the 6th gives some interesting pointers to how Bannatyne has made in his money in businesses focused on pleasure (Ice Cream), care for the elderly and and in a series of health clubs, spas etc.


I never heard before about Bannatyne, still the chart is interesting (I will use Placidus houses in my reading)

I mostly agree with Mark that Venus is very important.

First for profession. Venus is the ruler of MC, and this is not enough, but it is on sixth house cusp (which is one of the houses mentioned in Paulus Alexandrinus chapter about activities and trades), in sect and in its heliacal phase. In fact it will be in heliacal setting on 4th February ( inside the 7 days interval mentioned by the same astrologer).

So no doubt it is the ruler of activities. It is with Jupiter, the natural significator of riches. Ptolemy says that this means support from women (I don't know if this is the case).

Venus is the ruler of the Ptolemaic Part of Fortune which falls in Libra, so that's a good sign.

There is no aspect between the PoF and its ruler, and this is not good, still both they are ruled by Saturn, which so put them together in some way.

This is not nice too in my opinion because Saturn is peregrine, retrograde, and out of sect in an angle, so I wonder if these riches will last.

margherita
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to fix some statements I did, missing the fact that it was a nocturnal chart and this changes things quite a bit.

Quote:
In this chart we have some remarkable features: there is a Doriphory (or spear bearer) helping the Sun: Jupiter and Saturn are oriental to the Sun and rise before him. it´s not a firsthand doriphory because the essential dignity os the planets is poor and they are in feminine signs, out of sect: but it is a doryphory, anyway.[/

The doryphory gains importance since the planets, Jupiter and Saturn are in sect. The Moon, above the earth in very important in a nocturnal chart and being in sect and and in haym , in antiscia with Venus, ruler of the Fortune is an important help to the nativity. She also has a doryphory, Venus, which is in a feminine sign, so Venus is a real help for the Moon.

Quote:
In second place the ruler of the 2nd, Mercury, in the 7th, is cazimi, and looking to the ASC, so the ASC is able to take notice of the " movable possession´s problem". I would consider that even in the second sign Saturn is configured to the ASC, as well as to the 2nd ( he is by dinamical houses near the cusp of the ASC), so the generosity, as pointed out by Mark, works between planets configured by both the 2nd and the first house.

The 3rd and more important fact is given by the Fortune. The Moon is in the 10th of the Fortune, and this says about his work with the public and women. Venus and Jupiter are diametrical to the Fortune. They are not in a real good shape but they are benefics and are angular to the Fortune, showing that the native was able to earn money from women again and from activities pro health in general (remembering that in the radical chart these planets are in the 6th). In the radical chart Venus rules the MC and the Moon is the MC ruler by exaltation.

In my opinion the most important factor justifying wealth in this chart is the Part of Fortune.


I maintain this point.

Quote:
It is interesting to note that, being a day chart, the triplicity rulers of the Sun give the 3 parts of the native´s life: the first part is ruled by Saturn, and it was tough, the native was poor, and this shows that Saturn is not able to do much by itself even with Mercury generosity and help.

The 2nd part of life is ruled by Mercury, cazimi, and thanks you Mark for bringing the example, because it is a proof of the cazimi´s power, since by this time he made his fortune!

The 3rd part of life, where he is in, is ruled by Jupiter, a benefic cadent but angular to the Fortune, so everything says he will continue to enjoy a wealthy life.


Please do not consider the last paragraph, since it is a night chart.
The Moon is in a fire sign and the triplicity by night is Jupiter (first part of life), Sun, second part of life, and Saturn, last part of life.

Probably Jupiter cadency and bad celestial state is able to justify the difficult first part of life.
The Sun, being angular by whole signs, ruler of the ASC and having Mercury ( ruler of the 2nd) in his heart, was able to do more.
Saturn, the last part of life is, being disposed by Mercury, can justify his writings and his success writing about finances, a matter of the 2nd.


Clélia
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Quote:
The Moon, above the earth in very important in a nocturnal chart and being in sect and and in haym , in antiscia with Venus, ruler of the Fortune is an important help to the nativity.


I don't think the Moon in Aries can be in antiscia relationship with Venus in Capricorn - its antiscia degree falls in the 26th degree of Virgo!
Capricorn is in anticia relationship with Sagittarius.

Quote:
She also has a doryphory, Venus, which is in a feminine sign, so Venus is a real help for the Moon.

Ben Dykes:
The consensus seems to be that a planet is in doryphory if it either rises before the Sun(albeit not combust or under the beams) or sets after the Moon. But it is unclear whether a) it must be in the same sign as the luminary and if so, b) before or after it.
http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/UsingMedievalAstrologyPartI.pdf
I wonder what kind of doryphory definition you had in mind, because Venus isn't in the same sign as the Moon and doesn't set after it(as the majority of the authors seem to suggest should be the case with the doryphory of the Moon?)

Regards,
Goran
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="cor scorpii"]Olivia wrote:
Quote:
The Moon, above the earth in very important in a nocturnal chart and being in sect and and in haym , in antiscia with Venus, ruler of the Fortune is an important help to the nativity.


Hi Goran:

It was not Olivia who wrote it but me.


Quote:
I don't think the Moon in Aries can be in antiscia relationship with Venus in Capricorn - its antiscia degree falls in the 26th degree of Virgo!
Capricorn is in anticia relationship with Sagittarius.


For a moment I forgot that the Moon was in Aries. I calculated the antiscia in my mind and it felts at 4 degrees of Sagittarius but of course not at 4 degrees of Aries!
Anyway the Moon is strong enough in the chart and the presence or absence of the antiscia does not mean that her importance is lost.

Me:
Quote:
She also has a doryphory, Venus, which is in a feminine sign, so Venus is a real help for the Moon.


Quote:
I wonder what kind of doryphory definition you had in mind, because Venus isn't in the same sign as the Moon and doesn't set after it(as the majority of the authors seem to suggest should be the case with the doryphory of the Moon?)


I agree: the doryphory conditions for the Moon are opposite to those expected for the Sun!
I is always useful to pay attention to the details, thanks :-)


regards

Clelia
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for that typo - I meant Clelia Wink

Regards,
Goran
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it´s OK, Goran Smile

cor scorpii wrote:
Sorry for that typo - I meant Clelia Wink

Regards,
Goran

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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My apologies to anyone caught out by the whole sign chart. I usually display charts in Placidus on the mundane forum simply because it’s still the most popular house system. However, I use Whole sign as my personal house system of choice. Plus as the discussion was about aversion it seemed especially an issue for those using whole sign houses. Still, I should have highlighted this when I first posted. Its a pity software doesn't still indicate the ASC-DESC axis with a dotted line when displaying WS charts.

Herman: Yes I looked at the triplicity rulers of the Moon as sect light. Forgot to mention it. I agree it seems significant that his second triplicity ruler passes over to the Sun from that debilitated Jupiter. I do think the scale of the natives wealth is very hard to establish from the radical chart though.

Herman/Clelia: Thanks for suggesting the derived chart from the lot of Fortune. With the Moon its dispositor and the sect light in the derived 10th that really presents the chart in a quite different way. All the more appropriate with a Moon in Aries for an entrepreneur. I am going to have to routinely check charts this way in future.

I had thought as this has mostly been achieved through his own efforts ( no inherited wealth) the derived chart from the lot of spirit might be revealing too. Certainly this puts both benefics in the angular 4th house and the Moon as sect light angular in the 7th. The Sun, Mercury and Mars in the 5th house. The Lot of Fortune falls in the 10th house from a chart derived from the lot of spirit.

Clelia: Glad you agree the cazimi mercury is very significant too. A cazimi planet is like a planet in the chart with lights and bells screaming look at me! Pity its not the second triplicity ruler of the sect light. Still it is Lord 2!

Margherita: Yes I agree Venus is important here. Both MC ruler and Lord 10. Also dispositor of the lot of spirit. Venus is benefic in sect so is more inclined to bring good things to the native than Jupiter. Venus/6th house seems descriptive of the way the native initially accumulated wealth. I agree the fact it is in the 6th does not prevent it influencing 10th house affairs since it trines that house. Good point on the heliacal phase of Venus too. That oriental Venus in sect is quite pushy too. Of course from a mainstream traditional outlook ( ie everyone except Ptolemy!) there is an aspect between the lot of Fortune and its ruler –an exact square. Taking the lot of Spirit (the Ptolemaic Lot of Fortune) while Venus does not form an applying aspect it can see the house of the lot of spirit.

I still think the generosity between Saturn and Mercury aids a lot too. Despite its poor position the trine of Saturn to the MC from the 2nd must be useful too.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
btw I think you missed that aspect between the lot of Fortune and its ruler –an exact square.

Mark


"MY" PoF is at 15 Libra ( I don't reverse) and Venus is at 25 Capricorn, so no real aspect.

In every case it is really a nice chart.

margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep I just noticed. I should have guessed you would follow Ptolemy even when he is the odd one out. Smile You dont use the lot of Spirit then? Your missing out. Shocked

This question is a bit off topic but I wondered if you aware of renaissance astrologers who adopted Ptolemy's unreversed calculation approach to the lot of Fortune? I know Lilly and the English 17th century astrologers all used this approach but I assume they were relying on older european authorities. The Persians and Arabs all stuck with the approach of Dorotheus and Valens. However, early European astrologers like Bonatti reversed the lots too. I assume this is linked to translation of the Tetrabiblos and its influence on European astrologers in the renaissance especially. For example what approach does Cardano adopt in his commentary on the Terabiblos?

Still, whatever we call it the Lot ruler can see the house whole sign in a powerful angular relationship to it even if the aspect is well past separation by orb.

Mark
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark:

As a matter of fact you told you would be showing the chart using whole signs;-) I simply jumped into dinamical houses in the middle of the way, since i saw where the cusp of the ASC was.
I used whole signs for delineation, too and in order to see the planet´s strengh I use quadrants, Alchabitius.

I think that Saturn was configured both for the 1st and the 2nd. I don´t remember if I read it in Dorotheus ( I can´t find the source just now) but is pretty clear in my mind that he(?) said that for length of life purposes we have to consider a planet distant until 15º from the cusp of the ASC as pertaining to the first house, even if in the 2nd sign.

Astrology is a tricky science: I was very happy with my whole signs delineations when some facts caught me and pointed out to the necessity to use dynamical houses. As Zoller used to say: use both;-)

Quote:
Herman/Clelia: Thanks for suggesting the derived chart from the lot of Fortune. With the Moon its dispositor and the sect light in the derived 10th that really presents the chart in a quite different way. All the more appropriate with a Moon in Aries for an entrepreneur. I am going to have to routinely check charts this way in future.


If you allow me to suggest on thing more: construct a new chart departing also from the Moon. If all three speak the same language, we feel really reassured to delineate and predict things :-)
Quote:
I had thought as this has mostly been achieved through his own efforts ( no inherited wealth) the derived chart from the lot of spirit might be revealing too. Certainly this puts both benefics in the angular 4th house and the Moon as sect light angular in the 7th. The Sun, Mercury and Mars in the 5th house. The Lot of Fortune falls in the 10th house from a chart derived from the lot of spirit.


This is an interesting point! Usually I give a good amount of importance to the lot of Spirit and I agree with you on its meaning, but charts constructed departing from it frequently give poor result and are not descriptive as in this example, perhaps because people in general are much more related to habit and repetition( Fortune) than to create solutions or use their will to surpass difficulties.

Quote:
Clelia: Glad you agree the cazimi mercury is very significant too. A cazimi planet is like a planet in the chart with lights and bells screaming look at me! Pity its not the second triplicity ruler of the sect light. Still it is Lord 2!


This example was excellent to show that!
Liz Taylor had also a Mercury cazimi, but in Pisces, so it was not so strong as the one in you chart example.
Don’t forget, however, the native had Mars in the cusp of the 7th as the more angular planet: and here you have the importance of looking to dynamical houses. Mars angularity can explain the entrepreneur but also some disobedience .


regards

Clelia
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Yep I just noticed. I should have guessed you would follow Ptolemy even when he is the odd one out. Smile You dont use the lot of Spirit then? Your missing out. Shocked



I'm not so fond of Lots, I almost never use (that's not Cieloeterra method, they use Lots more than me). I used here just because riches and money were involved.

I gave a quick look to Cardano (my Latin is not really shining); it looks he is more concentrated on different rulers than calculation.

margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not so fond of Lots, I almost never use (that's not Cieloeterra method, they use Lots more than me). I used here just because riches and money were involved.


Yes I know exactly what you mean. For example most of the Hermetic lots-The whole idea of lots calculated from the lot of Fortune/Spirit and another planet seems quite far removed from the basic horoscope to me. With convoluted concepts like this I dont think traditionalists have any right to reject without examination modern ideas like midpoints. The thing I question is why place so much emphasis to what are after all derived points using universal significators? With the Sun and Moon ok but I find some of the other lots harder to accept. I have some sympathy with the view of Ptolemy on this topic even though I use the reversed lot of fortune calculation at night. Maybe its because I utilise fixed stars so much. If I started to incorporate all the possible lots in the chart too it would be a miasma of points to delineate. Confused

In Dorian Greenbaum's article in Culture and Cosmos ‘Calculating the Lots of Fortune and Daemon in Hellenistic Astrology’, Vol. 11, no. 2, Autumn/Winter 2007 she notes that research into surviving hellenistic charts show there are only a small minority of charts that ever used lots other than the lot of fortune or spirit. Lots of astrologers may have theoretically discussed other lots e.g. Dorotheus, Valens, Paul of Alexandria and Olypiodorus but actually utilizing them in charts was a much rarer phenomena than this might suggest.

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clelia wrote:
Quote:
I used whole signs for delineation, too and in order to see the planet´s strengh I use quadrants, Alchabitius.


I dont deny dynamical houses have an important place too to assess planetary strength. My problem is deciding which dynamical system to use. Confused It seems to me that the original purpose of any dynamic system was simply to assess the proximity a planet to the angles to assess its strength. I dont concur with using such a system as a back up reference for the topic of the house. Currently, I favour Porphyry as I am not convinced the more sophisticated maths of later quadrant house systems really add that much to this fundamental issue of angularity. Another plus for me is that Porphyry , like Alcabitius, leads to less stretched/shrunken houses in northern latitudes.

Quote:
I think that Saturn was configured both for the 1st and the 2nd. I don´t remember if I read it in Dorotheus ( I can´t find the source just now) but is pretty clear in my mind that he(?) said that for length of life purposes we have to consider a planet distant until 15º from the cusp of the ASC as pertaining to the first house, even if in the 2nd sign.


Benjamin Dykes gets into quite a detailed discussion of this. Ironically its in his Introductions to Traditional Astrology: Abu Ma'shar & al-Qabisi
I suggested to him that much of this introduction to the book might fit better as an article in its own right on early house systems. He also discusses the 8 house dynamic system of Nechepso and suggests this as a dynamic system to work in combination with whole sign houses rather than the more conventional 12 division systems. Its really quite advanced material. There is also discussion of this in Robert Schmidt's translation of Antiochus.

Dorotheus and following him Antiochus and Porphyry all suggest a special rule for planets in the second house by whole sign. However, Dykes does not think these authors were saying that 2nd house planets within 15º of the ascendant actually partake of the meaning of the 1st house. Rather that they partake of its power, activity or busyness. So a second house planet within 15º of the ascendant is effectively angular in power but still relevant to the topic of the second house.

I wonder if this is where we got the equal house system from? Some years back Robert Hand suggested in his book on whole sign houses that Firmicus Maternus was utilising whole sign houses but using equal house 'cusps' as key points in the houses. It will be interesting to see what Benjamin Dykes makes of this theory when he translates the text over the next year or two. Vettius Valens was clearly using dynamic houses (Porphyry) for his length of life calculation. We therefore have the possibility of using two (or even three?) house systems in one delineation. Combining whole sign houses with equal house divisions (similar to Firmicus and some Persian and Arabic astrologers) or Whole sign with quadrant sign divisions ( similar to Valens and later Persian and Arabic astrologers. Alternatively , One could abandon the 12 sector dynamic houses altogether and adopt the 8 division system of Nechepso. The whole subject is very interesting but exceeds the scope of this thread.

Looking at Bannatynes chart it seems that because Saturn is close to the ascendant it gives it more power and activity than a planet in a whole sign succedent house would otherwise have.

Clelia wrote:
Quote:
If you allow me to suggest on thing more: construct a new chart departing also from the Moon. If all three speak the same language, we feel really reassured to delineate and predict things :-)


I know Indian astrologers do this routinely with women's charts. In what ways have you used it? What information do you seek from it in charts?

Thanks

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The thing I question is why place so much emphasis to what are after all derived points using universal significators? With the Sun and Moon ok but I find some of the other lots harder to accept. I have some sympathy with the view of Ptolemy on this topic even though I use the reversed lot of fortune calculation at night. Maybe its because I utilise fixed stars so much. If I started to incorporate all the possible lots in the chart too it would be a miasma of points to delineate. Confused


I fuly agree!
I was taught to use the lots related to the houses. So, if you want to delineate marriage it is important to take a look at the Lot of Marriage. But what author we have to follow? Valens, Hermes or other? This is a problem.

I frequently take a look at them, anyway. But only as one of the tetimonies about the examined issue. If they agree with the basic delineation it´s good, if not I put them aside;-) So they work as a plus, not as the basic foundation of a house delineation.

But the Lot of Fortune and Spirit are anothe kind of fish, though:-)

Clelia
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