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Aversion and the 2nd house?
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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However, why do these rulers need to be in angular houses and similar sect (to the ASC sign or domicile ruler?) when no such requirements are necessary for exaltation rulers?


Hmmm, I promise that I did not invented that... :-P It is somewhere in Sahl... but thinking about it, he doesn´t say that it has to be a dispositor, I think any planet will do, if he is in an angle, and reflecting light back to the ASC
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hmmm, I promise that I did not invented that... :-P It is somewhere in Sahl... but thinking about it, he doesn´t say that it has to be a dispositor, I think any planet will do, if he is in an angle, and reflecting light back to the ASC


No no I wasn't accusing you of inventing stuff. This is the traditional forum after all. Laughing I suppose this might explain it since a non-dispositor would have no obvious connection to the house. Setting higher criteria for a connection makes some sense. Although, I find it hard to accept a non-dispositor acting as a caretaker over a house. I suppose it would help if the non-dispositor planet was a universal significator for the mattter concerned. For example, in an instance where Lord 2 was in aversion to its house Jupiter aspecting the second house could be seen as a lower level mitigation. However, as you suggest if we concede numerous mitigations to aversion the notion will rather lose its power.

I have meant to study more Sahl. A good time to get my copy of Benjamin Dykes Works of Sahl & Masha'allah out. Smile

Mark
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yuzuru



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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Although, I find it hard to accept a non-dispositor acting as a caretaker over a house.


Just to clarify, the planet in an angle would not act as a caretaker, but as a transmiter?, messenger?

And, I believe Sahl said that they both had to be joined, so whole sign aspects won´t do.
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astrojin



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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Yuzuru
Quote:
For the dispositor of the planet to help mitigate aversion, it wasn´t usual for the arabs to demand that he would be angular? Even for the new helenistics, I would expect that the dispositor would need to be of the same sect then the planet. The way you describe, aversion becomes a very rare ocurrence indeed.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I do not consider the three mitigations (like engirding, equal power or equal rising) in the case of fulfillment of primary motivation. In the case of dispositors of ascendant, I usually look to the domicile ruler and if primary motivation is not fulfilled directly or indirectly, then to the exalted ruler. I do not consider the lower dignities. On the indirect fulfillment of primary motivation, I will look if the domicile/exalted ruler is in applying aspect to another planet that aspects the ascendant sign (yes, you are right! It should be applying aspect).

Generally:
I still think that a planet should have a share in the sign and looking at it to manage it. So, if a domicile or exalted lord of a house/sign does not see the house, it does not manage it. If a planet sees a house/sign but does not have a share in it, it can't manage it. If a planet is in the sign/house but does not have a share in it, it can manage it simply because it has made that house/sign its temporary residence (when both domicile and exalted lords can't manage it). I still consider the trip lords but they only rule part of the house (unlike domicile and exalted lord) but they must aspect the house.
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello:

astrojin wrote:
Hello,

Quote:
Now I suppose I just have to test it out in practice.

In practice, I find that the primary motivation is not extracted only from the ascendant (as I was taught before) but in some charts, the primary motivation is best answered through the strongest from among the big three viz. sun, moon or ascendant (we should not always default to ascendant). Do consider this in your practice.


I have a client with Scorpio Ascending in the 4th degree. The second house is Sagittarius where he has in longitude: Mars, Jupiter, Moon and Venus. In Capricorn he has Mercury, and the Sun is in the 2nd degree of Aquarius in the 4th.

The Sun has no dignity at all in Scorpio but I found your opinion interesting, because I imagined that the Sun,(one of planets you called " big"), even not being the luminary of the sect was responsible for fulfilling the native´s PM. Saturn is in Taurus in the 7th, but it is at 15 degrees of Taurus, more distant in degrees than the Sun.
Anyway the Sun and Saturn are in an angle and Saturn receives the Sun by domicile. I think that probably the Sun is one of the ways by which the native fulfills his motivation in life.
Is this in the same line of your thoughts?

best wishes

Clelia
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astrojin



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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clelia,

Yes, based on the information you supplied, sun is where pm is extracted and it seems that his pm is fulfilled via domicile.

However, we should always confirm our theoretical analysis with the native in real life. No matter how good the theoretical analysis is, it means nothing to the client if it does not reflect the native's life. It is like making predictions. We make some retrodictions to confirm that we are looking at the right predictive technique for this native (there are many predictive tecniques to choose from!) e.g. finding key years that important things happenened to the native and when our client confirms this, we can then proceed to the predictions. In the case of pm and its fulfillment, if the strongest of the Big three is Sun in Aquarius in the fourth, the client should also potray an Aquarian life that centers on the fourth.
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin wrote:
Hi Clelia,

Yes, based on the information you supplied, sun is where pm is extracted and it seems that his pm is fulfilled via domicile.

However, we should always confirm our theoretical analysis with the native in real life. No matter how good the theoretical analysis is, it means nothing to the client if it does not reflect the native's life. It is like making predictions. We make some retrodictions to confirm that we are looking at the right predictive technique for this native (there are many predictive tecniques to choose from!) e.g. finding key years that important things happenened to the native and when our client confirms this, we can then proceed to the predictions. In the case of pm and its fulfillment, if the strongest of the Big three is Sun in Aquarius in the fourth, the client should also potray an Aquarian life that centers on the fourth.


Agreed Astrojin Thumbs up It´s like an horary question: if it does not reflects the real situation maybe it is not radical.

Other thing I want to mention is that the ASC is at 4ª Scorpio, Mars at 1º of Sagittarius and Jupiter at the same degree. The Sun is at 2] of Aquarius.
So the Sun is not able to translate the light from Mars to the ASC.
By whole sign, yes, but by aspect the quality of the Sun is what counts here, since the sextil aspect between Sun and Mars is separative. Even being a natal chart I understand that the translation is not occurring but in the past. What we have actually right now is the Sun applying to the ASC.

I have been using this kind of situations between planets (as applying or separating) to calculate the years given by the alcocodem, for example.
Let´s say that Mars is the Hyleg and Jupiter the Alcocodem( because Mars is applying to Jupiter and Jupiter has domicile in Mars sign). Mars is separating from Saturn.
Then, Jupiter will give his years depending on his angular or succedent position and he will not get deprived from the less years of Saturn because Mars is in between them.
This is the way I have been able to reach more sound results.

I´m telling all this because I had the sensation you was doing a similar thing. Correct me if not!

Clelia
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Other thing I want to mention is that the ASC is at 4ª Scorpio, Mars at 1º of Sagittarius and Jupiter at the same degree. The Sun is at 2] of Aquarius.
So the Sun is not able to translate the light from Mars to the ASC.By whole sign, yes, but by aspect the quality of the Sun is what counts here, since the sextil aspect between Sun and Mars is separative. Even being a natal chart I understand that the translation is not occurring but in the past. What we have actually right now is the Sun applying to the ASC.


I have to disagree on this point Smile

If the positions of the planets are really exactly as you've stated, than the Sun is actually a strong helper(especially if angular by quadrant division) and it enables Mars to "see" his domicile Scorpio. Since Mars is the slower of the two, the only way the Sun(or any other faster moving planet) may play a role of 'helper' is to be separating(not applying to) from Mars and thus rendering his light to the ascending degree.
The only two other candidates which would be able to reflect Mars's light back to the ASC by application(I mean Mars's application to them) are Jupiter and Saturn, hence slower moving planets than Mars.

Goran


Last edited by cor scorpii on Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cor scorpii"]
Quote:
Other thing I want to mention is that the ASC is at 4ª Scorpio, Mars at 1º of Sagittarius and Jupiter at the same degree. The Sun is at 2] of Aquarius.
So the Sun is not able to translate the light from Mars to the ASC.By whole sign, yes, but by aspect the quality of the Sun is what counts here, since the sextil aspect between Sun and Mars is separative. Even being a natal chart I understand that the translation is not occurring but in the past. What we have actually right now is the Sun applying to the ASC.


Quote:
I have to disagree on this point Smile
The positions of the planets are really exactly as you've stated, than the Sun is actually a strong helper(especially if angular by quadrant division) and it enables Mars to "see" his domicile Scorpio. Since Mars is the slower of the two, the only way the Sun(or any other faster moving planet) may play a role of 'helper' is to be separating(not applying) from Mars and thus rendering his light to the ascending degree.


O Gore, I agree on your disagreement! Laughing I said something really silly, since the Sun is translating the light from Mars/Jupiter to the Ascendant! ( where is the blushing emoticon?)

Quote:
The only two other candidates which would be able to reflect Mars's light back to the ASC by application(I mean Mars's application to them) are Jupiter and Saturn, hence slower moving planets than Mars
.

Well, Saturn is already seeing the Ascendant, since he is in the 7th, at approximatelly 15º of Taurus, and Mars does not aspec Saturn in this sign, so I did not get your point here.

Thanks for warning me!
Clelia
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, Saturn is already seeing the Ascendant, since he is in the 7th, at approximatelly 15º of Taurus, and Mars does not aspec Saturn in this sign, so I did not get your point here.


I was just making a general statement about Saturn and Jupiter as the two superiors which are slower than Mars and hence to whom Mars normally can only apply when in "need" i.e. when they can help him see his own domicile by reflecting his light toward it.

BTW - no need for blushing emoticons, Clelia Wink we all make mistakes now and then.

Greetings,
Goran
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello!

I decided to write because I came to know personally the native which chart I was studying: the one with the Sun in the 4th house in Aquarius. And he had eyes with large iris as has been described in people whose Venus aspects closely the ASC.

He had a 2nd house full: Mars at zero degrees of Sagittarius, Jupiter at 1 degree, Moon at 11º and Venus at 15º. The Sun is at 2º of Aquarius in the 4th house. The ASC is Scorpio, 4º27'.
The LOT was at 25º of Sagittarius and the planet near by degreee was Venus.

Well, what is bugging me is that the Sun would not be able to translate the light departing from Mars, Jupiter to Moon/Venus to the ASC, because the Moon is faster than the Sun. Kind of confusing, hu? I´ll try again: we imagined that the Sun translated the light from Mars, ruler of the ASC to the ASC. But how to translate the light of the Moon, being the Moon faster than the Sun and much more closer to Venus than the Sun, to the same ASC in order to justify the native´s eyes?

The Moon aspects Venus but does not aspect the ASC and the ASC is responsible for physiognomy.

My only shot is that the Hellenistics, like Valens, were right standing for a chart departing from the Moon or from the Lot as complementary to the one constructed according to the minute and second of birth.

I imagine that if we are not able to see the Primary Motivation through the horoskopus and his rulers, we have to construct a chart departing from the position of the Moon and the LOT. Perhaps the scenary will change a lot.

any thoughts?

Clélia
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it might be useful to display a real chart which illustrates the issue of aversion. In particular, one where the domicile and exaltation Lord is in aversion to a whole sign house it rules.

I have looked at several charts of Scottish millionaires (birth times all AA as verified by birth certificate).

Below is the chart of the Scottish millionaire Duncan Bannatyne which has some interesting features. Bannatyne is a well known face on British Television as one of the panel of millionaires in the long running BBC TV show ‘The Dragon’s Den’. The Dragons in this instance are a panel of millionaires/entrepreneurs who assess a series of inventions and creative business ideas. There are some similarities to the US TV show ‘American Inventor’, However, the UK show also expects participants to prepare detailed business plans and projected profits etc. Bannatyne is known for his tough, no nonsense personna on the show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Bannatyne



Bannatynes chart seemed interesting as his second house ruler(Mercury) is in aversion to its house (Virgo) by whole sign in the 7th house. As Mercury is also the exaltation ruler of Virgo there is no way for it to help out directly. Bannatynes poverty and financial insecurity in his early life is well reflected by an out of sect, Rx, peregrine Saturn in the 2nd. However, around the age of 29-30 ( coinciding with his Saturn return) Bannatyne seems to have found his true vocation as a businessman /entrepreneur. Starting out with an ice cream van he went on to purchase a Nursing home and after selling this purchased a string of successful health clubs across Scotland. His business portfolio now includes hotels, health clubs, spas, media, TV, stage schools, property and transport. His wealth as of 2011 was estimated at £430 million by the Sunday Times Rich List.

Bannatyne was honoured with the Order of the British Empire (OBE) for his contribution to charity and supports many good causes, especially for children. He is heavily involved with Comic Relief and UNICEF, and is a passionate anti-smoking campaigner.

There are some interesting mitigations that might help explain the remarkable reversal of fortune that permitted Bannatyne to become so wealthy. Mercury (Lord 2) conjoins the Sun ( Lord 1). In fact Mercury is exactly cazimi of the Sun! Both planets are in an angular house that can see the MC and 10th. There is also a generosity between Mercury and Saturn with Mercury in the domicile of Saturn and Saturn in the domicile, bound and face of Mercury. Jupiter the natural significator of wealth and Lord 8 is not well placed. Its in the cadent 6th house. Jupiter is also in its fall and out of sect. However, it can see the 2nd and 10th house. Venus Lord 10/MC ruler is also in the 6th house. It is in sect but peregrine. Its perhaps significant that both benefics are trining the MC.

The lot of Fortune is in the 12th. Both the lot and its dispositor are cadent. This reflects the humble origins Bannatyne came from. In his teens Banatyne served in the Royal Navy and spent 18 months in military Prison after attempting to throw an officer off a boat landing jetty in Scotland. He left the service with a dishonourable discharge. The dispositor of the Lot of Fortune is a peregrine Moon in Aries the 9th house. Bannatyne left his home in Scotland at 15 and never returned to live there again. Bannatyne made all his wealth outside Scotland. He has tenaciously remained in the same location where he married and founded his first business (Stockton-On-Tees in North-East England) and still commutes down to London several times a week. Indicated by both the fixed sign on his 4th house cusp (Scorpio) and its ruler Mars in the 7th in the fixed sign of Aquarius.

The lot of Spirit is at 15 Libra in the 3rd house. Its dispositor is Venus in Capricorn located in the 6th gives some interesting pointers to how Bannatyne has made in his money in businesses focused on pleasure (Ice Cream), care for the elderly and and in a series of health clubs, spas etc. Bannatyne has written 4 books; Anyone Can Do It sold more than 200,000 copies; Wake Up and Change Your Life quickly entered the Sunday Telegraph top selling books list, as did How To Be Smart With Money closely followed by How To Be Smart With Your Time.

I tend to think Saturn (plus the cazimi Mercury) is key here. It is trining his MC/10th house quite closely. In his early life Bannatyne seems to have clashed repeatedly with authority figures. As Lord 7 it seems that once Bannatyne found the stability of his marriage and the need to provide for a family he released those tough self disciplined Saturnian qualities in himself symbolized in his angular Sun, Mercury and Mars and was able to focus these abilities through their dispositor in the 2nd house.
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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hervaro



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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There are some interesting mitigations that might help explain the remarkable reversal of fortune that permitted Bannatyne to become so wealthy.


Also, being a night-chart, the triplicity rulers of his sect-light are in order: Jupiter, Sun, Saturn (Moon in Aries).
Jupiter, governing the 1st part of life is miserably placed in his fall and (most important) cadent. Indeed, not a good period.
2nd part of life comes under the responsibility of the Sun. He is badly placed essentially, but mighty in the pivot of the 7th (and as you noted, the King has raised and taken Mercury ruler of the 2nd sign, to sit on his Lap on the Throne!).
3d part of life is (will be) taken care of by Saturn. Saturn is peregrine yet still has some power by placement in succedent house. One might fear though that some of this man's richness will dissappear, or be taken away... (Saturn retro).

But/and Jupiter together with Venus being in Fortuna's 7th house, with Fortuna's dispositor itself (the Moon, the Light of the Time) in the 10th house of Fortuna, certainly will have helped (and keep on helping)!

Herman
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello!

Herman, it is not a night chart: the Sun is above the horizon;-)

But I agree with you that the Fortune has a long story to tell us.

In this chart we have some remarkable features: there is a Doriphory (or spear bearer) helping the Sun: Jupiter and Saturn are oriental to the Sun and rise before him. it´s not a first hand doriphory because the essential dignity os the planets is poor and they are in feminine signs, out of sect: but it is a doryphory, anyway.

In second place the ruler of the 2nd, Mercury, in the 7th, is cazimi, and looking to the ASC, so the ASC is able to take notice of the " movable possession´s problem". I would consider that even in the second sign Saturn is configured to the ASC, as well as to the 2nd ( he is by dinamical houses near the cusp of the ASC), so the generosity, as pointed out by Mark, works between planets configured by both the 2nd and the first house.

The 3rd and more important fact is given by the Fortune. The Moon is in the 10th of the Fortune, and this says about his work with the public and women. Venus and Jupiter are diametrical to the Fortune. They are not in a real good shape but they are benefics and are angular to the Fortune, showing that the native was able to earn money from women again and from activities pro health in general (remembering that in the radical chart these planets are in the 6th). In the radical chart Venus rules the MC and the Moon is the MC ruler by exaltation.

In my opinion the most important factor justifying wealth in this chart is the Part of Fortune.

It is interesting to note that, being a day chart, the triplicity rulers of the Sun give the 3 parts of the native´s life: the first part is ruled by Saturn, and it was tough, the native was poor, and this shows that Saturn is not able to do much by itself even with Mercury generosity and help.

The 2nd part of life is ruled by Mercury, cazimi, and thank you Mark for bringing the example, because it is a proof of the cazimi´s power, since by this time he made his fortune!

The 3rd part of life, where he is in, is ruled by Jupiter, a benefic cadent but angular to the Fortune, so everything says he will continue to enjoy a wealthy life.

Clelia
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hervaro



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Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice this man's earning's history can be made to fit a day-birth, but I think you were misled by the whole-sign house chart, Clelia.
With the descendant at 24 Aquarius, and the Sun at 13 Aquarius, I'd say we might be beyond dusk allready!
Leery
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