I was looking at an electional chart and realized that the reason I was having a hard time with it is because when I'm looking at a NON natal chart I think of the planets something like this

Kiron - wounded healer - awkward situations
pluto - death, regeneration, harder changes
Neptune - good side rose colored glasses, bad side illusion or deceit
uranus - chaos, good or bad
Saturn - authority - tradition - old ways - conservative.
Jupiter - benefit - luxury - new ways - liberal
mars - passion - energy - mechanical things - sharp things
Venus - money - beauty -
mercury - communication - transportation - internet/cable
moon - emotion - mother or maternal - the translator (as in its movement from one alignment to the next tells you how something is unfolding)

Sun - I have trouble with sun, self? energy? what? what player is it in a chart that is not a birth chart? do you always see it as a person or ? what characteristics does it represent ? oddly it doesn't come up that often for me as main role player in non natal charts, but it is in this one.

thanks in advance for your thoughts, Granny.

Hi, granny!

This could be a very interesting discussion!

I'd say that it depends. After reading your list, I realised that, even when examining my own natal chart, I attribute different qualities to some of the planets. That is not to say that have a better list but rather that I have stopped examining the planets alone and have accepted them as a part of a bigger picture that includes all sorts of different influences.

Let me give you an example- I have an interception inside the 10th house and, although my MC is placed inside the rulership of Venus (I, indeed, i have graduated on an arts academy) the intercepted sign is Gemini and it has Mars inside it. With my 6th house Aquarius Moon, i have had to change quite a few jobs and accept some jobs that have got nothing to do with my main profession. My first job outside my field of studies was a media (Gemini) representative of a company that sells (Mercury again) army equipment (Mars). Then I got a job at an airport (Gemini- transportation) and had to start wearing a uniform (Mars).
I could think of at least 20 more jobs that would fir this combination (and I hope I will never have to cut the envelopes open with a pen-knife in a post office for living ).

But, in a way, finding the most appropriate symbolic meaning of each planet in a chart is somewhat like examining a picture in a kaleidoscope - all the pieces that have their original value and meaning, become parts of a complex picture and create a very specific and unique unit.
That is why I don't always see a uniform in other people's charts even when Mars falls into gemini . Because it can have a completely different value when found inside the 12th or 4th.

Planets in conjunctions can be especially tricky and interesting because the two (or more planets) mutually influence each other in a very profound way. I have a partile Jupiter/Mercury conjunction inside Leo in the 12th. (With a benevolent sextile with Mars in 10th and in Gemini, it is really no wonder that i got a job as a media representative of a firm with a bad reputation).

Different types of charts require different approach, needles to add. Since you're mentioning the Sun, i have to say that, in Horary charts cast for romance question, in most cases where either the ruler of the Querent or the Quesited was in a bodily contact with the Sun, the situation included one married partner. This is just an impression, 'tho!

So, instead of a general list, I will share a list of the meanings of the planets that i have found to be most obvious in my own chart

Khiron- I'm still really not sure about this one but it does appear to be a representative of certain tension and heaviness in some spheres of life turning suddenly into important areas. I'm not sure i can even explain it properly

Pluto - VERY HARD changes. regeneration, yes, but also degeneration. The sphere of live ruled by the house where it is found can really put some extremely difficult tasks in front of the Nativity

Neptune - great story teller especially when in 'communication' with Mercury. Great liar too. Being seduced, being non-realistic, sailors, islands and people who live there, drug abuse, alcoholism (Neptune/jupiter conjunctions often result in extreme examples of this type of behaviour), imagination

Uranus- oddly enough, I have found it to be very stimulative for certain professions (engineering or transportation for instance) that share its nature in many charts. When it influences a certain person (father, sibling etc.) it can be suggesting a somewhat distant person or someone very different (the only drop-out in a family or simply the only child that wants to go to a law school )

Saturn- age! Older people in the life of the Nativity or, activities and qualities will come with time. this does not necessarily mean when they grow old- a benevolent Saturn/Venus often brings about the effect of "mature beauty" and this can mean that a woman in her 30es will attract more men than when she was in her 20. All the planets that Saturn touches with an aspect and all the meanings that they carry should, this way or the other, become important 'later', 'with time' or when either the Nativity or the activities themselves become older. Sometimes, it simply means that it will take more time than expected for some things to mature.
It also means seriousness and dedication. (Can you imagine my situation; I have Saturn in Virgo inside the 1st and people percieve me as a very strict and serious person. And, at the same time- I have Mercury and Jupiter conjunction and enjoy the company of pranksters and people who tell hilarious joke. I'm a latent schizophrenic. )
Saturn is someone who is often alone, someone distant and someone patient.

Jupiter- is a teacher in the most traditional sense (wise old man, a priest, a spiritual leader). It it someone with a liberated spirit. Wits! A dedicated husband, a foreigner, an impressive personality. I tend to see it more as a ruler of non-material wealth (i leave Venus to the bankars ). It is also a dedicated student, a non egoistic personality, a leader who is attractive to both younger and older people.
It gives some special qualities to the planets that it touches with its rays- if Jupiter is well placed and if the aspect is good, whatever it is that is reciving this influence becomes gold-coated
Healthy type of authority

Mars - uniforms!!!! speed, male principle, fiery personalities, young active men, sports and sportsmen, arms

Venus - material wealth, femininity, appearance, beauty, all forms of arts but also banks and people who work with money, young women, food and cooking (I have a really cool example of a person who accepted an astrologer's advice on how to stop the never ending series of professional failures caused by Venus in capricorn on the 10th cusp and started importing frozen vegetables ), gardening and gardeners

Mercury - oh, my! communication, transportation, precise mechanics, sales, publishing, anything that includes precise work and preoccupation with details, microscopic things, writing, newspapers, news, young people, education, schools, stations, advertising, marketing

Moon- tradition, emotions, mothers, wives, pregnant women, instability or common changes, domestic life, care

Sun- father, male principle, authority, ego and self-esteem, prosperity, success, Moon/Sun aspects - eye-sight, father-mother, male-female relationships, visibility, very dark (burnt) or red haired people, people with freckles, important persons, powerful people, with strong Sun- generous and famous people, with badly placed Sun- hard to reach, authoritative people even tyrants, husbands, impressive male figures

Sorry I wasn't more clear, you did eventually answer what I wanted to know, but I can see why you went there via the Romulan Home world (insert sense of humor here) I was very specifically knocking off house and sign and sign ruler-ship from what I was looking for, to look at what attributes are aligned with the heavenly body itself, when NOT signifying a Person.

Success, eye-sight, tyranny I can get from your description,

Thank you Ever so much, But now a question for you Aglaya, why Authority and Father? I've always thought that was Saturn? (which in my own chart fits perfectly with a Cap 4th house) I've always read Saturn as father/king/authority which may just be a Baylonian interpretation. Thought Sun was supposed to be younger male??? when a person not a description or thing. more like Jupiter age, not Saturn age? a male person in his prime.

thanks in advance for your thoughts and help!

Granny

Hello,

granny_skot:
Interesting associations with a mix of ancient and modern!

My two cents of general descriptions of sun (w/o considerations of houses, aspects, etc.) ? the few things that I can think of:

Sun is hot and dry, hence, energy (like Mars, the other planet with nature of hot and dry) but more controlled and refined energy (unlike Mars which is wayward raw energy).

Sun represents fusion (capable of making a new whole greater than the sum of its parts - synergistic power, gestaltic effect). After all, fusion is literally occurring in the sun's core to produce all that energy.

Sun is the central planet according to the Chaldean order of the planets, hence, central figure or a person who holds the center of attention, the authority (where appropriate). When you are near the sun (conjunct), you are ?caught? by or under the influence of the authority. As it is the central planet, it represents the ego or the self (the I in us ? first person singular).

Sun is father, especially in a day chart (as Moon is mother especially in a night chart) as both luminaries are the general principles of male and female in a chart, right and left, yang and yin, etc.

Sun (as is also Moon) represents life as the luminaries (like life) are never retrograde. There is only one direction of time/life - forward. They should be the first to be considered as indicators of time - in fact they are the ones used in our calendars! While Moon represents a month at most, sun represents at least a month (as we observe in Decumbiture). Saturn does not rule cyclical time in motion like sun and moon. It represents more of the limits of time as it is the outermost orb of the seven planets. It also represents what time can do to others, decay, breaking down, that which has been forgotten but still lingers at the edge of consciousness...

Sun as all seeing eye (where things become visible during the day), is the principle of where and when things are revealed. Connections to sun may tell us that something is about to come to light (and vice versa). It is the planet that singles out something (the One) whereas Moon is the one that includes everything (the Many).

Sun also represents knowing something through its ontological being (and not through common knowledge - Moon, or through dialectical/logical thinking - Mercury, or through revealed knowledge ? Jupiter or through traditions, authority and time tested knowledge ? Saturn).

As sun is the spark of the chart, it also represents the spark in us i.e. the soul. With its spark (heat and power/energy) it literally awakens us every morning and make things moving (Hellenistic ? principle of motion) and it figuratively awakens/moves our soul to act accordingly.

Because the sun represents knowing something through its ontological being and also the spark in us (soul - the Lot of spirit is the Lot of Sun), it represents the abstract as Moon represents the tangible (the Lot of fortune is the Lot of Moon). As an example, aspect made by a planet representing profession to sun represents a profession that requires abstract thinking (episteme) and aspect made by a planet representing profession to moon represents a profession that is more skilled based/tangible (techne).

Sun represents the Standard that others should be referred to just like the path of the sun (i.e. the ecliptic) is the standard by which other planets are referred to.

It is interesting to note that sun (hot and dry) is the principle of fire (he provides energy) and moon (cold and moist) is the principle of water or fluid (she does have effect on the waters of the earth and our emotions). The purification of the body (generally represented by Moon) is done by water and the purification of the soul (represented by the sun) is done by ?fire? (baptism through water and fire?).

granny_skot wrote:Sorry I wasn't more clear
Granny

You were! I wasn't reading carefully!

Thank you Ever so much, But now a question for you Aglaya, why Authority and Father? I've always thought that was Saturn? (which in my own chart fits perfectly with a Cap 4th house) I've always read Saturn as father/king/authority which may just be a Baylonian interpretation.

I think there are two main reasons why many astrologers (including me) perceive it that way. One of them has already been explained by Astrojin. The Sun is the ruler of the fiery and powerful masculine energy as opposed to the universal (fertile, watery) female principle. The Sun is the generous Father whilst the Moon is the birth-giver i.e. the Mother.
Someone might ask- why not simply use Mars and Venus? Or even Saturn as you're suggesting?
I can tell you as to how I see it although it is not a universal principle. Venus represents the energy of a young female . It it the ruler of all the things feminine. So, why the Moon and not Venus for a mother? I'll risk being misunderstood and say that the energy of Venus is 'potential' energy. It is a woman ready to become self-accomplished. Venus is a plant that has not yet started producing fruit. Mars is her male equivalent. When the two meet, they share love and passion as they're compatible. Once they form an union, they become The Moon and The Sun. Mother and Father.
I tend to see Saturn as their ruler when they grow old- the ruler of both male and female older people. Once that their reproductive age is over, male and female get a single ruler-they both represent the principle of maturity and infertility (which is not to say that they become less important only now, they have a different position in the circle of life- they are not the Parents any more, they are now the parents of the parents). Similarly, Mercury, a 'unisex' planet, rules kids- the part of the population that has not yet matured and reached its reproductive age.
Of course, this should not be taken literally because, every woman keeps her ruler for ever and so does every man but I'm just try give you a simple explanation of how i percieve the symbolical meaning of the luminaries. If we'd have to delineate a chart cast for a question concerning a 90yo father, surely, we will never skip to notice that he is a male and a father.

Anyway, that is how I see it!
My friend who is also an astrologer, once asked me- but, you never mentioned Jupiter ! I said that jupiter is wisdom and, unlike aging, wisdom is not something that comes naturally and 'by default'.

The second reason is connected to the values and virtues traditionally assigned to the Sun- Lilly describes the Sun as the natural ruler of noble men, authorities, kings and so on. In modern days, this planet is usually assigned to modern-type kings i.e. presidents. Or judges. Important and influental figures. To people in power and people who rule something. Greatest authorities in a community.
The parallel with fathers is obvious. Of course, this does not mean that, by assigning the Sun to the father, we are accepting patriarchal values or suggesting that it is the father who is or should be the Head of the family but rather that he is perceived as the main MALE person in each family. And a partner of the main FEMALE person, the mother, ruled by the Moon.

That being said- once that young Venus is ready to marry her sweetheart, the ruler of her man becomes Sun. That is why many astrologers use it as the natural significator of husbands in the charts of female persons.
It is a very common practice among modern astrologers to determine the number of potential marriages for a woman by counting the number of applying aspects that the Sun will make before leaving the sign. The same thing is done with the Moon in the charts of male Nativities.

Needles to add- it all spins around the Sun and, symbolically speaking, the most important men in the life of a female person is someone around whom everything spins- HE is the centre of HER world. The Sun.


Here, i might also want to draw a parallel with what Astrojin mentioned in regard to another symbolical vallue of the two luminaries- the Sun as an individual and the Moon as 'masses'. I have recently read a very interesting article about Cancerian Sun and Mon in Leo in charts of policital leaders- the author made an impressive list of revolutionists, presidents, kings , even tyrants and especially nationalists with these placements. The Sun has a huge ego and wants to rule whilst the moon represents the masses- his potential followers. In addition- the Moon represents tradition and national heritage and the Sun represents fiery masculine energy- this is a great combo for a nationalist and a president. And sometimes, unfortunately, it is a spark for horrible crimes committed under the excuse of patriotism. Add the 4th house and a few stressful aspects and you have all the main ingredients for a mad president capable of seducing masses and sending them into insane wars 'of national interest'.

I hope I managed to explain it well.

As for the eye-sight, it refers to stressful Sun/Moon aspects and I have never seen it fail. Moon/Sun oppositions especially. This aspect also involves certain tension between the parents. It would be impossible to say what type of tensions exactly because it will highly depend on the shape of the planets, their placement and the rest of the chart but is is a rather dynamic contact. I've seen everything from minor domestic troubles to real tragedies. One of my best friends is (unfortunately) one of the best examples that I have seen so far: her Sun is strong in Leo but it is in exact opposition with the Moon inside the 8th, detrimental and in the fall of Sun- she is an 'illegitimate' daughter. She has never met her father and has not been recognized by him. He died when she was only 2 (and didn't know that he had a daughter). She lost her mother at the age of 14 and became an orphan because, by that time, all of her close relatives had already passed away too. And she wears glasses. (Oddly enough, her name derives from the word "sun").

Stressful contacts between the luminaries in astrological charts obviously obey to the laws of optics. The Sun's light is reflected by the Moon. When the sunlight reaches the surface of a crystal, it defracts and such defracted rays of light are very harmful for the eye-sight. The moon is cold water (very much like crystals) and so, it is no wonder that the opposition with the Greater luminary has such difficulties as a result.

Naturally, any planets near the Sun will suffer certain damage too. This is why we can examine the Sun as a potential danger in charts with combust planets. Again, impossible to say what kind of negative influence the Sun will bring but combustions are obviously very powerful and important.

I like the term 'spark' used by Astrojin. To that, i could also add that it is often the spotlight of a chart. The house in which it is found usually becomes very important and, if the Sun is well placed, some great achievements can be expected in the area of life ruled by that house. it also makes the matters connected to that sphere of life more public. Publically exposed people often have an angular Sun (1st, 10th). The Sun on the 10th cusp is a good indicator of a profession that is perceived as 'important' - The Sun in libra on MC is a great position for a judge (authority and law), But, in charts of powerful politician is can easily be found inside the 12th (powerful position in background games).

Finally, another thing- you have mentioned 'non-natal' charts and I have noticed one very interesting thing in Horary charts. I have seen quite a few Horary charts cast for romance questions in which the Sun was actually the ruler of the spouse. In most cases, of the cheated spouse. Or, at least, the ruler of the marital status. It is commonly accepted that Saturn represents the third party (the spoiler of fun) but I am now very inclined to believe that the Sun plays an important role in such questions. I have no concrete explanation for this but it might close to what i mentioned before- the sun as the ruler of the most important person in someone's life (yet, thrown into a chart cast for the questions about his wife and her lover! ). Here I have to stress that it appears to be a pattern (at least in the charts that I delineated) that does not make a difference between male and female spouses. So, again, it appears that it was only suggesting that the Quesited (because most of the questions involved love triangles) has got an even more important person in her/his life already. The last time I found it, the Querent skipped to mention that her lover was married. I saw his ruler applying into a conjunction with the Sun by 2 degrees. I aksed- she admitted. her 'boyfriend' was about to get married (to another woman ) in 2,5 months.

I believe that there is a nice example provided by another astrologer somewhere here on forum as well. The lover was ruled by retrograde Mercury, leaving combustion and applying to the L1. He was married (combustion), temporarily separated (leaving combustion), in a relationship with the Querent (applying to its ruler) and yet, with no intention of leaving his wife for ever (retrograde motion= unattractive qualities of the affair and an obvious plan to go back to his wife- after turning direct again, it will meet the Sun for the second time in the same sign. a top of all this, it was cadent.).

Astrojin wrote:

As sun is the spark of the chart, it also represents the spark in us i.e. the soul. With its spark (heat and power/energy) it literally awakens us every morning and make things moving (Hellenistic ? principle of motion) and it figuratively awakens/moves our soul to act accordingly.

Because the sun represents knowing something through its ontological being and also the spark in us (soul - the Lot of spirit is the Lot of Sun), it represents the abstract as Moon represents the tangible (the Lot of fortune is the Lot of Moon).

What a great post. Beautifully put. I totally agree. Indeed I less elegantly raised essentially the same point on the traditional forum a while back.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5952

A lot of traditionalists seem to resist this idea. I think they are keen to dissociate themselves from modern ideas of the Sun=self=spiritual evolution. Equally, the more materialist paradigm of Ptolemy stemming from Aristotle leaves little room for such ideas. Its fine to have the sun determining domiciles, exaltations, sect and planetary phases but any discussion of the soul or divine is omitted.

Its not too hard to find differing perspectives in the tradition which take a more spiritual outlook whether in the Stoicism of Valens, the Neo-Platonism of Ficino or in the Indian tradition. For Stoics like Vettius Valens for example the Sun was not a symbol for spiritual 'evolution' but rather alignment with the divine mind. Hence for Valens the Sun is the 'light of the mind'.

Helena Avelar and Luis Ribeiro offer a useful definition of the astrological Sun in traditional terms in their book, The Heavenly Spheres:

The Sun, the lord of the day, is masculine and its nature is moderately hot and dry. The Sun is the King of the stars, the greatest luminary. It is the giver of light, heat and life, a symbol of radiance, power and force. It represents the creative principle and is a symbol of the divine. It is also a symbol of sight since its light enlightens , revealing the truth. It represents dignity, nobility, and authority figures in general , the father in particular.

Its element is fire. But the fire of the Sun is moderate: it illuminates and warms in contrast with the fire symbolised by Mars , which destroys. Due to its qualities of moderation and light ,the Sun represents vital energy and spirit, the principle underlying all things. However, if the Sun is too close , it becomes excessive : its light blinds and its heat consumes.

When dignified, the Sun represents fidelity, promises kept, and the ability to govern. It symbolizes prudence , good judgement, majesty, and status and the search for fame, honor and riches. It also indicates sumpuousness and magnificence. If debilitated, the Sun indicates arrogant, prideful, and disdainful behaviour, when its nobility is false and its discernment weakened. Its manifestations are restless , disorderly, dominating, and inconsequential, and there is an underlying feel of personal entitlement.
The Heavenly Spheres: A Treatise on Traditional Astrology by Helena Avelar and Luis Ribeiro p32-33.

I think in a horoscope which is not a natal reading, such as mundane astrology, the sun represents the king or ruler. However, the sun can represent one's father; or in a woman's chart, her husband. Beyond that, you might consider the sun's various rulerships, as appropriate to the electional chart's purpose and circumstances.

I don't know when the concept of the sun changed to being one's own identity in a chart, but I am guessing the theosophical movement of the late 19th/early 20th century had something to do with it. In past times, very few people had any kind of self-actualizing potential. The people who got to do what they wanted to do were royalty (or at least aristocrats.) At the family level, it was the father. In centuries past, one's own identity was better described by the ascendant.

In modern astrology, natal chart division, I think the term "identity" best captures the sun's meaning. Where (by house) and how (by sign and aspect) do you most feel like yourself?

The best illustration of this principle for me is that so often I get to know people on an acquaintanceship or superficial level. Then once I get to know them better, I find out what makes them tick. Where and how do they feel most alive? Maybe it's not the career or their careful exterior packaging. What do they live for? The answer to those questions points to their sun.

Just wanted to thank everyone for contributing, I've been away at a conference and just got back to my computer, and was pleased to find such elegant responses to the question of "When not a human, what is the sun?"

and to paraphrase Mark and Aglaya - Astrojin, WOW, great explanation! Thanks!

granny