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RegulusAstrology



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 132
Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the fallacy of Solar Return Relocation

When I first studied astrology, I did modern and working with a modern astrologer, I relocated about 5 years in a row. Then I started traditional astrology and saw how worthless the relocation exercise was. Let me give you one example. In a particularly awful return, Moon/Libra separated from Saturn/Cancer and applied to Mars/Cancer in an almost partile square.

For the return cast for the natal birthplace (no longer living there at the time), the Moon fell in the 9th, Mars/Saturn in the 6th.

For the 'relocated' return - and I do not recall the rationale made for relocation, the Moon fell in the 10th, Mars/Saturn in the 7th.

What happened: within a week of my birthday two events occurred within 48 hours. my nephew overdosed on heroin devastating his family, especially my sister-in-law; in addition, one of my paternal aunts unexpectedly died. sister-in-law is 7th from the 3rd (brother's wife) or the 9th which was the location of the afflicted Moon for the birth place return. paternal aunt is assigned to the 6th house, 3rd from the 4th (father's siblings) which is where the Mars/Saturn conjunction was located for the birth place solar return.

My wife and mother suffered no major problems that year which would be consistent with the afflicted Moon in the 10th and Mars/Saturn conjunction in the 7th of the relocated solar return.

Going further, the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Cancer of the solar return was recapitulated in the nephew's horoscope who died; he had Mars/Saturn conjunction in Scorpio which was partile conjunct the MC of the birthplace solar return.

If anybody believes relocated solar returns have any validity after this story, let me direct you to a few gravesites. I am sorry but the entire premise and practice of relocated solar returns is total crap.

Zagata: thanks for the mention of solar returns in Chapters 9, 10, and 11 of A Rectification Manual.

As I detail in Chapter 11, when solar return planets are conjunct natal lots, the lot is typically activated during the year. Worth concern are solar return malefics conjunct either of these lots within 2 or 3 degrees: the 6th house Lot of Chronic Illness or the 12th house Lot of Accusation, Exile, and Injury which are both Mars-Saturn lots.
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dr. H,

Thank you for sharing with us your SR example, and I'm so sorry for the loss you had in the particular year.

As of the Solar Returns, I think both ways (relocated and SR for the birth place) works well. Because there are some very serious traditional astrologers (like Robert Zoller for example), who works with relocated Solar Returns. I don't say that Zoller must be right, but his great experience in this subject makes me to believe that the relocated solar returns should not be neglected.
Now, you gave us an astonishing example that the Solar returns for the birth location works quite accurate as well, and my conclusion would be that they work in both ways.
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RegulusAstrology



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NatanEpsilon

Thanks for your kind response. My approach to astrology has been empirical and accordingly I operate on a "what works" basis. Not on a flippant basis, mind you, but starting with theory and what teachers say, then subjecting various methods to as many examples as I can find time to research. Based on my experience, I can't find any validity in relocated solar return, either for myself or for clients.

But mine is one opinion. If you can garner benefit from them, then more power to you!

Best wishes,
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr H wrote:
Quote:
My approach to astrology has been empirical and accordingly I operate on a "what works" basis. Not on a flippant basis, mind you, but starting with theory and what teachers say, then subjecting various methods to as many examples as I can find time to research. Based on my experience, I can't find any validity in relocated solar return, either for myself or for clients.


This is the approach I have also settled on although I cant claim to have done anything like the scale of research you have done. Having said that many astrologers claim their experience confirms the validity of relocated charts.

I well recall Bernadette Brady stating this in a workshop a few years ago. While she rejected the shallow notion of flying off for a good return chart she did argue that as her 'home' had relocated to the opposite side of the world from Australia the return chart was relevant for her new home in England.

Whether one accepts this view or not it occurs to me that such people make exceptionally good case studies on testing out the radix vs the relocated SR chart. I would be very interested to know if you have experience of such situations from your client work.

Mark
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ciuboda



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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RegulusAstrology wrote:
On the fallacy of Solar Return Relocation

If anybody believes relocated solar returns have any validity after this story, let me direct you to a few gravesites. I am sorry but the entire premise and practice of relocated solar returns is total crap.



I agree with you if you see relocated SR as a way to avoid events.

I'm using SR relocation for me and my clients and is working very well. For me relocating on your birthday is not to change events in your life but to improve how you are dealing with what will come. Also you can reduce some risks. My main goal on relocation is to clear 12th and 8th house and allow that person to have a better control of what will happend.

For example: Moon in 8th house is a difficult position because the person will lose energy (under all forms) for the entire year. Is not necessary to lose money or death appear in your life but that person will not be on his best shape.

Also I'm always relocating someone based on what he/she wants to do next year. If someone say that his priority is to change his job I will try to make a stronger MC - I'm taking into consideration also transits and progressions.

Try to see SR as a chart showing how you are dealing with events taking place that year. It's more a chart of 'levels of controls'.

Dan
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Tom
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I live so close to where I was born that relocating a solar return is meaningless for me. Therefore I cannot give any personal anecdotes one way or the other.And we also need to keep in mind that the "only" thing relocation affects are the houses. The the SR planets aspects to each other and aspects to the natal chart are identical. A nasty Saturn is going to remain a nasty Saturn. However whether Saturn rules the MC or the 3rd house is of importance. For most of us, even if we live "far" from our birthplace, things don't change all that much in the relocated chart.

That being said I can relate some second hand chart information that sort of persuaded me that it is better to use the relocated chart than the natal chart.

For about a year I moderated a Yahoo group dedicated to solar returns. We ran charts of celebrities that had recently enjoyed some fame and/or notoriety and tried to relate that to the SR. In other words it was pretty much ex post facto astrology. What I observed is that the relocated chart worked better when looking for the particular incident, but even this has a caveat.

From solar return to solar return is one year. For the most part, we looked at and discussed one incident in the year. The return chart should show more than that. But these were celebrities and we just don't get to peek inside their daily lives to see what else is going on, even if they died that year.

This brings me to one of John Frawley's observations. He thought the chart cast for the relocated area showed the potential of the area and the chart cast for the nativity showed the potential for the year for everything. If I recall correctly this may have been borne out in the case of Arthur Ashe when he won the Wimbledon Men's championship in 1975. I'd have to look this stuff up in order to check my memory, but for now bear with me - the point is valid even if my details are not exactly correct. Ashe was born on July 10. The 1975 final was on July 6, so we had to use the 1974 solar return. I could not discover where Ashe was on July 10 1974. For whatever reason I chose London probably because he would have been present at the 1974 championships. Regardless, the point is that I cast a relocated chart and I didn't know where he was on his 1974 birthday. The chart worked nicely showing honors coming to the native prior to July 10 1975.

His natal solar return, cast for this birthplace of Richmond Virginia, was one of those years when the angles reversed. Old astrologers recoiled in horror when they saw that, thinking the native was going to get seriously ill, if he was lucky - dead if he wasn't. However the group seemed to believe, more reasonably, that it showed a year of upheaval in the life for good or ill. Ashe had seriously committed to winning a major championship in '74-'75 and he put aside the many causes in which he was active to allow more time to improve his game.

So London was the scene of his triumph, but he did uproot his life or a good part of it in order to accomplish that end. Maybe Frawley is on to something.

On the other hand, I could not bring myself to relocate for the purpose of changing destiny. I think the idea is silly, but if it happens that I'm someplace else at that time, I might use the chart for that location.


Last edited by Tom on Thu May 03, 2012 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ile



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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Can I know the name of the yahoo group dedicated for study of the Solar Returns?
I'm interested in joining the group.

Thanks
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Tom
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It no longer exists. Sorry.
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RegulusAstrology



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


I well recall Bernadette Brady stating this in a workshop a few years ago. While she rejected the shallow notion of flying off for a good return chart she did argue that as her 'home' had relocated to the opposite side of the world from Australia the return chart was relevant for her new home in England.

Whether one accepts this view or not it occurs to me that such people make exceptionally good case studies on testing out the radix vs the relocated SR chart. I would be very interested to know if you have experience of such situations from your client work.

Mark


Hi Mark. My primary clients were born half way across the world and have emigrated to the United States. Reviewing a string of solar returns over the course of ten years now, the birthplace solar returns have worked without fail. As inciteful as the study of single year solar returns can be, believe study of a series of returns for many years will yield the real takeaway findings.
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Vasanth



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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Dr H,

I had one basic question.
If an event is shown by a primary direction, is the same event shown in some form in the solar return? or vice-versa?

In your book 'A Rectification Manual', you wrote -
"The effects of the solar return or any other predictive technique are additive.
Solar returns do not blend their influences with the natal figure"
I didn't understand this quite well. Could you elaborate on this if possible?

Thanks
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jean-baptiste morin book 23 chapter 4 goes into relocated solar returns.. then there is the idea of relocated charts which jim lewis did a very good job presenting to the world of astrology.. it would seem some want to work with a relocated chart and some don't.. i am not sure how much of this has to do with the particular style of the astrologer, but my personal experience is relocated charts have great bearing on life and events..
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Tom
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morin's "logic" for using relocated returns is not one a 21st century astrologer would likely accept. He argued that when any planet returned to its natal position the native was somehow "infused" or perhaps rejuvenated with the planet's energy. The Sun is the most important planet and therefore, its return to its natal position the most important of any of the planets. Since the Sun infuses its influence at the time of its return, the location of the infusion must be the correct place to cast the chart.

This is kind of "new agey" and won't find much support today. However the charts he used to demonstrate his idea are impressive. The main one is that of King Gustav Adolphus of Sweden. He uses the year of his death and casts the charts used for the location of the native at the birth, solar return, and lunar return. It only took a little desktop research to verify the King's location at the time of the returns, so Morin was on the money there. However Morin's use of the Rudolphine tables resulted in lunar return calculations that worked real well, but were way off. The SR was on the money.

He did the same thing with the charts of his one time beneficiary and later enemy Cardinal Richelieu. The astrology is very impressive.

Morin claims that previously astrologers used the natal location, and therefore he is among the first, if not the first, at least in his mind, to use relocated charts. I don't know if that's accurate, but as was his custom, he was quite adamant about his beliefs.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reading morins book 23 right now, i see he factors in location and time in a fluid manner.. the way i understand many practicing astrology today - time is fluid but the location remains static at the place of ones birth.. i think morin would relate to the work of jim lewis, but he isn't around for us to know.. at the very least he considers place and time as relevant to the unfoldment of events for a person and not stuck in the place of a persons birth if they are no longer 'located' in the same place..
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###



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Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, when a person is born something a life is set into motion. Radix means root. When the person is born and acquires a natal, or radix, chart the root is set into the earth. Most astrological work is done with that radix chart. Thus, all returns remain valid for that location.

On a more superficial or surface level relocated returns can be descriptive. BUT not the off-to-Vegas-for-a-birthday-bash sort of relocated chart. Sometimes I get cranky, and such silliness really gets me going. If a relocated chart is used it needs to be based on the current home, the place where the personal belongings, the job, friends, and daily routine are to be found. That is where the personal energy, focus and consciousness are to be found. But the natal return is always the foundation and can be used without any reference to a relocated chart.

In my case, at the age of 4 years and 1 month we moved over 1000 miles away. I am still in the same region. I've found the natal location to be best, with interesting and relevant things to be found using the current home location. The same for work I've done with the charts of celebrities and historical persons. However, I can't make any claims for having done a thorough job of research.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kirk,

i agree with you.. this ciro fellow seems to be treating relocation as some type of entertaining circus act for his clients.. i think it is a bad joke what he is doing myself..
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