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Scottish Independence?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1716
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

thanks for sharing. i find it always challenging how astrologers can't operate with full confidence as they don't know if the chart they are working with is the best or most correct one.. you mention this chart for scotland was worked on my someone and is generally accepted by others in scotland, however i pick up a window of doubt in your comments as well.. have you considered how you might be able to predict the idea of scottish independence using another chart such as one from britain which this idea of seperation would have much bearing on? i am sure you have, but i thought i would toss it out to you..

the idea of engaging younger voters by lowering the voting age to 16-17 might seem self serving, but how does this differ from so much of the way laws are designed at present? if someone can drive a car when they are 16, why can't they vote too? one is considered an adult by 12 when they want to go see a movie in a theatre which many might say is just a money grab, but this is actually the state of the world today.. these attempts to define what is an adult and what is not seem so self serving to me on many levels..
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4173
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
thanks for sharing. i find it always challenging how astrologers can't operate with full confidence as they don't know if the chart they are working with is the best or most correct one.. you mention this chart for scotland was worked on my someone and is generally accepted by others in scotland, however i pick up a window of doubt in your comments as well..


Your right. Although in part my reservations with that chart are ones I have with the notion of all national charts. Lets not forget in historical terms the national chart is a very modern development in mundane astrology. Probably the first popular advocacy of national charts came with the publication of Charles Carter’s Introduction to Political Astrology in 1951.

Traditionally the main tool of mundane astrologers for centuries had been ingress charts along with other timed charts for eclipses, lunations etc. However, Charles Carter had, along with his British contemporaries, completely failed to predict the outbreak of WWII. Carter concluded that the traditional ingress chart was therefore inadequate and proposed national charts as a new way forward. However, as someone who has studied the pre-war ingress charts I have to say the fault lay not in these charts but in Carter’s delineation of these charts. Carter was in many ways an excellent astrologer but I think his failure to predict WWII was a reflection of the decline in traditional understanding of ingresses. In any case national charts caught on like wild fire and quickly established themselves as the dominant type of mundane chart in modern astrology. The rest as they say is history.

Nevertheless, the national chart throws up a number of difficult issues. Not least of these is can a nation really have a single birth moment like a person? In older countries this can be problematic when there may be many formative moments. Even a comparatively modern nation like the USA throws up intense debate. Should we use a chart for the 4th of July 1776? If so what rising sign? Sagittarius, Gemini, Scorpio, Virgo or Libra? All have had their astrological advocates. Moreover, there are numerous other key dates in terms of the formation of American statehood such as the signing and coming into effect of the Articles of Confederation or the Federal government. Which is the one true national chart? I engaged in a mega thread on this topic here on Skyscript some years ago regarding the chart for the USA. It taught me that this kind of thinking is futile. Part of the problem is that people seek different things in a national chart. Some seek a chart that gets to the heart of supposed national character while others are content with a chart that responds well to historical events. Ingress charts never create this kind of dilemma.

I am not saying national charts are of no value. However, I think we need to accept that a country may have numerous key moments. Generally I prefer constitutional charts as the most reliable kind of chart. Hence I tend to favour the US Constitution chart for 1789. At least we avoid interminable debates over timing and the latest innovation in rectification of ‘the true chart’. Clearly, the 4th of July chart says something very significant in regards the American spirit. I do look at the Sibly chart in that respect.

Getting back to the 1005 chart it is a chart for the coronation of King Malcolm II. The Scottish astrologer who first proposed this chart (Violet Milne) is one of my predecessors as Chair of the Scottish Astrological Association. Violet was clearly following the same kind of logic as that behind using the 1066 chart for England which marked the Coronation of William I (The Conqueror). It should be said we don’t have accurate times for either chart. In both instances a noon time is used as the assumed traditional time for coronations. However, these events happened in an era before mechanical clocks. I personally therefore tend to use the Solar Noon so that the MC is exactly on the Sun. I do have a reservation about the timing of the 1005 chart. Still, I have put numerous other historical dates through the grinder and the 1005 seems as good as anything else.

Of course as I stated earlier no medieval astrologer would have considered using such a single coronation chart as a representative chart for the nation forever. All it would symbolise would be the reign of Malcolm II. I think it could be argued the coronation of King William marked a pivotal date in English history. The Norman conquest instituted a fundamental social change. I have found the 1066 chart quite good at reflecting events in England even today.

I am not so convinced 1005 marked the same kind of historical rubicon for Scotland. I think the main argument that might be made for the reign of Malcolm II is that his Kingdom possibly represented the first Scottish Kingdom to link the Gaelic & Pictish North (Alba) and the south-east and west of the Kingdom (Anglo-Saxon Bernicia and ‘British’ Strathclyde). Although I have read historical research that disputes whether Strathclyde really joined a united Scottish Kingdom at this point or significantly later.

Enough musing. Time for some charts for people to get their teeth into!

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

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Last edited by Mark on Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



The Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond has signalled the start of a two-year campaign to persuade the Scottish electorate to embrace independence, after agreeing a referendum deal with British Prime Minister David Cameron today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19942638

After more than eight months of intense negotiations, the Scottish first minister and the UK prime minister signed a detailed 30-clause agreement in Edinburgh to stage a referendum before the end of 2014 asking a simple yes or no question on whether Scotland should become independent.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/About/Government/concordats/Referendum-on-independence

The "Edinburgh Agreement" means that the Scottish Government can now propose legislation on the precise wording of the question, the exact date, extending the vote to 16 year olds, finance rules and conduct.

The Scottish National party leader said the deal, agreed less than 18 months after he won a landslide victory to take control of the Scottish parliament, "paves the way for the most important decision that our country, Scotland, has made in several hundred years. It is in that sense an historic day for Scotland, a major step forward in Scotland's home rule journey".

Salmond said he believed "heart and soul" he could win the referendum but, in a rare admission about the scale of the task facing his government and the Yes Scotland campaign, he acknowledged he still needed to persuade a majority of the country's 4 million voters to back independence.

The agreement paves the way for the most important vote in Scotland for 300 years when the Acts of Union bound England and Scotland together.

Main Provisions:

-UK Government gives Scottish Government power to determine date of election. A retreat from its previous position this should happen in 2013.

-UK Government drops opposition to 16 and 17-year-olds voting

-The Scottish Government drops the idea of a second question on 'devo-max' to secure vote in autumn 2014

The date of the actual referendum favoured by Alex Salmond is believed to be October 14th 2014. This is a Saturday and would be controversial UK elections historically occur on Thursdays. Salmond is keeping the precise date a secret for now as he is believed to be holding announcement until the Scottish National Party Conference this Saturday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_general_election,_2011

I wasn't around to check media reports when this agreement was signed earlier today. However, I have seen this photo with Cameron and Salmond shaking hands just after signing the agreement. Its looks like 1.15pm to me but I will be checking with some other Scottish astrologers on this. I will be using that time provisionally

Data: 1.15pm on October 15th , Edinburgh, Scotland



Very interesting that the chart features a new Moon right on the MC. Modern astrology suggests New Moons are good for new beginnings but traditional astrology takes a quite different view and sees such times best for secret actions or magic.

However, if the time for this chart is correct the Moon is actually cazimi here. Cazimi means literally in the heart of the Sun. Such a planet avoids all the negativity of combustion and according to William Lilly makes the it 'wondorous strong'. While the cazimi planet is meant to partake in the power of the Sun here the Sun itself is somewhat weakened by being in its astrological sign of fall (Libra). Moreover, the dispositor of the Sun/Moon is Venus which itself is in its sign of fall (Virgo).

In terms of aspects it is applying across the sign boundary to a conjunction of Saturn. Alternatively, if you only count aspects that perfect before leaving sign it is void of course. Moreover, the moon is totally, out of sect here in a day chart, above the horizon in a masculine sign. The Moon rules the 8th house , traditionally 'the idle place' which reinforces associations of fear, anxiety and distress.

Still this chart looks like it could have been astrologically elected by a modern astrologer.

The question is who is really the winner or loser here astrologically? The SNP, Scotland or the United Kingdom? Its true the independence and pro-union campaigns are already underway. Still, Salmond has yet to set his preferred date for the referendum. We will return to that later.

Here is the chart:



I have put the chart in a couple of Bi-wheels with Charts used for Scotland. Firstly, the popular 1005 chart I have discussed in this thread earlier. Secondly, the Edinburgh Agreement time in comparison with the chart for the creation of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.



We see both the MC, Moon and Sun in this chart opposing the MC ruler (Mars) in the 1005 chart. Whatever the merits of the 1005 chart this degree (25-26 cardinal) seems significant in Scottish history. Tr Uranus on the radix Venus which is located in the legal 9th house and is Lord 11 by quadrant or 10 by Whole sign. Tr Mars trine the radix Venus and Sun. Tr Mercury on radix Pluto. Tr Pluto on radix Neptune.



Looking at the Edinburgh Agreement in comparison to the Scottish Parliament Chart we again see the radix Mars activated but this time by conjunction to Tr Moon/ Sun, and especially chart MC in Libra. Tr Mars sextiles the Moon. Mercury MC ruler opposes Saturn. The new Moon-Sun Conjunction sextile the radix Venus. We can see Saturn has entered Scorpio and will be opposing its radix position during 2014.

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus


Last edited by Mark on Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 365
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankyou Mark, for the amount of work you have done to give us such a detailed and excellent report on this matter of great importance to all Scots!

It would seem to me that the outcome of the referendum should be obtainable from the event chart which you gave us for the signing of the Edinburgh Agreement at Holyrood. It could be regarded as a contest chart, the contest being started at the moment when the two contestants agreed on the rules of combat. Would you agree?

Best wishes,

Geoffrey
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1319

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I wasn't around to check media reports when this agreement was signed earlier today. However, I have seen this photo with Cameron and Salmond shaking hands just after signing the agreement. Its looks like 1.15pm to me but I will be checking with some other Scottish astrologers on this. I will be using that time provisionally

Data: 1.15pm on October 15th , Edinburgh, Scotland

Mark

Only a very short note as to the time: Obviously you take the golden hand of the clock as the minute hand. But it is very unusual that the minute hand is of another colour than the hour hand. It looks as if the black or dark minute hand obscures the hour hand (of the same colour as the minute hand, as usual with clocks) at just five minutes after one o'clock, and the golden seconds hand is at 17 seconds aftter this time about. Thus:

1.05.17 pm.

. . . if this clock displays the right time at all!

Johannes
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 924
Location: Delhi

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.
If the clock time is correct, it appears 1.07 PM and about 20secs to me.
The MC is conjunct Spica and the new moon is very close to it.
It could have been a closeted Cyril Fagan scottish siderealist who chose this chart.

Trop[ically,
1st lord(England) in detriment- going to the opponent(Scotland-Edinburgh) and being recalcitrant(retrograde).
7th sign is the sign associated with US Independence(Gemini).

Sidereally,
Mars - 1st lord is in own sign, typically, the scots have kept the Fortuna dispositor powerful.Saturn is exalted, Venus is not in fall and the 2nd lord Juiter is in the 7th but not in fall and trines MC.

The astrologer was paid by the head of Barclay's.
There is a US-Scottish stellar conspiracy going on here Shocked
(I heard it on BskyB Republic of Scotland)
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 365
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:

Trop[ically,
1st lord(England) in detriment- going to the opponent(Scotland-Edinburgh) and being recalcitrant(retrograde).


Interesting that. In event charts, the ascendant is for the person or group initiating the event. One would have naively thought that would be Alex Salmond and his party. But with a "recalcitrant" Jupiter smack on the descendant, that has to be Cameron who went to Holyrood to sign the agreement. Since the agreement would have been drafted in Whitehall by the UK Government, is it then Cameron who is seen as the initiator of this event? That would fit.

The agreement itself is surely for the 9th house of legal matters. Mercury rules the 9th and so is confusing as Mercury also rules the 7th and will be for Alex Salmond. But Venus, on the cusp of the 9th, is given by modern authors as natural ruler of international legal treaties, so that will do very nicely as the agreement here. Mercury is sextile to Venus, so is quite happy with it. Jupiter's square to Venus leaves us in no doubt about Cameron's thoughts on the matter!

As for who will win the referendum, it is interesting that the Part of Fortune is bang on the Ascendant....
Quote:

The astrologer was paid by the head of Barclay's.

An English bank.... It would not surprise me if that was perfectly true.
Quote:

There is a US-Scottish stellar conspiracy going on here Shocked

If Scotland does gain independence, it will need all the friends it can get!
Quote:

(I heard it on BskyB Republic of Scotland)

The satellite is parked in the wrong orbit then Sick

Geoffrey
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Additional data and charts? Reply with quote

Good morning,

Thanks to our Moderator for an excellent overview of Scottish history and related astrology. It seems to me that it would be worthwhile in reference to the 9th house to mention that Scotland is considered the country of origin of Freemasonry as we know it today. Scotland is reputed to have by far the highest percentage of Freemasons of its population amongst all the world's nations.

Is someone already preparing ingress and / or eclipse charts for the discussed events? If not, i might calculate and post some. To my feeble knowledge it is certainly correct that 'national charts', like 'world months' based on the cycle of precession (procession viewed geocentrically), are developments of modern astrology, for the better or the worse.

Best regards,

lihin
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Quote:
Only a very short note as to the time: Obviously you take the golden hand of the clock as the minute hand. But it is very unusual that the minute hand is of another colour than the hour hand. It looks as if the black or dark minute hand obscures the hour hand (of the same colour as the minute hand, as usual with clocks) at just five minutes after one o'clock, and the golden seconds hand is at 17 seconds aftter this time about. Thus:

1.05.17 pm.

. . . if this clock displays the right time at all!



A few people have said the same to me so I will go with the majority on this. 1.05pm it is!

I assume they signed just a few moments before this photo was taken. They were sitting down and there were two other signatories-Michael Moore (Scottish Secretary), Nicola Sturgeon (Deputy First Minister).

So where do we go from here?

Salmond is likely to announce his preferred date for the election (probably Sat Oct 14th) this weekend. After that we have a wide range of techniques at our disposal.

1 Nativities of the key players: Salmond, Cameron, Sturgeon, and Michael Moore utilising transits, progressions, directions, profections, returns etc

2 Using the Aries and Libra Ingress charts preceding the election

3 Looking at the preceding Eclipse and Lunation chart.

4 Examination of various Scottish charts ie 1005, 1328, 1603, 1707, 1999. Plus charts for the UK-esp 1801 and 1927

5 Opening and Closing of Poll charts

6 Charts for the SNP and other UK parties

7 Charts for the launch of the separatist 'Yes' campaign and pro-union 'No' campaigns.

We do have 2 years so I think we have time for all of these here! Very Happy

I see Geoffrey's suggestion about using the Edinburgh Agreement as a contest chart. I am not so sure though. This is an agreement on how the referendum process will be conducted legally between the two governments. So even if it sets out 'rules of combat' I feel we still await the actual contest in Autumn 2014. So in my view its not a contest chart in itself.

Still, its an interesting discussion point. What do others think?

I would rather use an opening of polls chart in 2014 for that. Incidentally, most of the negotiation was ironed out in Edinburgh not Whitehall. Michael Moore and Nicola Sturgeon basically negotiated the final terms of the agreement.

I think its well overdue to discuss Alex Salmond's natal chart. I will post that up for discussion next.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1319

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much, Mark, for this - your - perfect thread which to study is very inspiring!
At the same time this really overwhelming list of possibilities to be considered seems to be never ending.
I know it is not very 'mundane' to proceed like this, but what about to convert your first sentence opening this thread:
Mark wrote:
I am starting this thread to discuss the possibility of Scottish independence over the next few years.

into the Horary question:
"Will there be the Scottish independence over the next few years?"?

Perhaps an Horray could be an adition to all other possible considerations you refer to.

And again, there would be the possibility, to ask this question anew and 'at the right time', or what about to take the 'Edinburgh Agreement Natal Chart' or the time of you opening this thread as that for the Horary Question?

Johannes
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All,

I had promised to update you all further on this topic. I'm sorry I have not posted in this thread lately.

I should explain that I have been selected as a speaker on this topic at the United Kingdom Astrological Association Conference this September. My talk is entitled: 'Scotland-Independence or Union?'

http://www.astrologicalassociation.com/pages/conference/2013/programme.php

I will be exploring the astrology of Scotland and the United Kingdom as well as the key players involved in the independence vs union debate.

I am therefore keeping most of the material to myself for now until after my conference talk. No need to worry as that still gives us a full year to discuss the topic afterwards.

Mark
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While my current Astro*Cartography program is showing some small variations according to how I modify my maps, it is interesting how Pluto is on the ascendant and forms a line that crosses (cuts) the Scottish/English border in the chart of the Solar Eclipse May 10. 2013.


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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like England is finally going to be free Lala Happy
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that if the topic comes to a rise and a date for the vote is decided upon in conjunction with the lunar eclipse or the near abouts, and that this vote has consequence, then the chart will have proven itself in satisfactory manner.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now they, i.e. Alex Salmond, have announced a

Date for the Referendum:

September 18, 2014

Johannes
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