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Scottish Independence?
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Mark
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Scottish Independence? Reply with quote

I am starting this thread to discuss the possibility of Scottish independence over the next few years.

Those outside Scotland could be forgiven for being unaware what is happening in Scottish politics. There are many elections across the UK today. However, the one that may prove most historically significant is the election for the Scottish Parliament taking place today (May 5th 2011).

Opinion polls are all indicating that the Scottish National Party (SNP) will emerge as the largest party in the next parliament by a significant margin over their nearest rivals the Labour party. They are not projected to have quite enough seats to govern alone but they will only be a few seats short of this. This marks a significant stride forward for the nationalists in comparison to the last election in 2007.

After the 2007 election the SNP formed their first administration since the Scottish Parliament was formed in 1999. However, they were only able to form a minimal minority administration with only one more seat than the Labour party. Despite the SNP electoral commitment to a referendum on independence the unionist parties ( Labour, Liberal Democrat, and Conservative) were easily able to block these proposals in the last parliament.

This parliament looks like being very different. It seems very likely that in co-operation with the Greens (who also favour independence) the SNP will be able to pass a referendum bill through the Scottish parliament. The prospect of Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is therefore likely to be on the political agenda over the next few years. Should this go ahead it would represent the first time a constituent part of the United Kingdom has become independent since the creation of Eire or the Irish Free State in 1922.

This is likely to be a long running story over the next few years rather than one around for weeks or even months. Its likely any referendum will be towards the end of the new parliament. If the SNP are able to proceed with an independence referendum I strongly suspect they will choose 2014 as it is the 700th anniversary of the Scottish victory over the English in the battle of Bannockburn in 1314. This battle finally settled the issue of Scottish independence from England.

I plan to put up numerous charts for consideration such as various national charts for the United Kingdom, Scotland, the Scottish Parliament and the SNP amongst others.

For now the thread is locked until the dust has settled on the Scottish electoral arithmetic emerging from todays election. I will be updating the thread so do keep an eye out if the topic interests you.

Thanks

Mark
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be following this thread with interest as it raises many interesting questions regarding national/regional independency contrary to being part of a union. The devlopments are interesting in terms of England being signified by Aries and Scotland by Cancer. The signs are separated by square. Are the diffences/differences in needs that obvious? Only a few weeks ago, at the sports section I asked why in some contests the United Kingdom is entered, while in other events the union is split down into England, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland. What will happen with the Union Jack?

Historically, there has been a close and somewhat similar relationship among nations in the North - Scandinavia; Denmark, Sweden and Norway - with Norway being the unwanted passball between Sweden and Denmark until Norway declared its fedral law in 1814 and finally national independence in 1905. In modern times Scandinavia and the Nordic countries also included Finland and Iceland, although the Finish have some historical relation to the Swedish, the Finish are not Scandinavians.

In Norway the need to preserve national identity has been so strong that they went to the step of forming a 2nd language 'New Norwegian', which is an appreciation of national dialects but that takes the language further away from the Swedish and Danish, which is a debatable move in terms of the 3 countries wanting to communicate with one another - or in the end to preserve the Scandinavian. Norway is such a long-stretched country and the differnces of needs and priorities in the northern and southern regions are so large that occasionally the discussion of whether northern regions should move for independency does occur - splitting Norway into two. However, in Norway there are 430 municipalities belonging to 19 counties, and the current tendency is to merge the smaller areas into larger districts. It would seem that national or regional identity and indepencency was the current trend, and there is a lot to be said for that in terms of getting the upper hand on regional needs and problems. However, the tendency is also toward forming new unions - but it seems more likely these are formed in the interest of finance and commerce.

As I said, I will be following this thread with interest, even if not contributing. I think the discussion is more properly conducted by those members who are familiar with the politics in the region and have first hand access to developments in the news. But there could be a lot to be learnt - and it will be interesting to see how matters resolve.
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Lunlumo



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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this was started on May 5th. This is Sun at 14/15 degrees TAU. The 15th degrees of the fixed signs often correspond to fundamentally new orientations.
In addition, the 15 degree TAU is coined by UR being placed exactly there in the chart of the coniunctio maxima of 1603 (UR conj. southern node).
May 5th - Marx was born that day - fundamentally new orientations indeed.
May 5th, 1955 - post- war (West-) Germany regained its sovereignity, i.e. its full independence.
LL
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before we get into the astrology proper I better update everyone on the outcome of the Scottish Parliament election.

The polls were correct in predicting the Scottish National Party (SNP) emerging as the largest party by a significant margin. However, the outcome was even more dramatic than that. The SNP achieved a landslide victory and effectively wiped out their political opponents across the country. With 69 seats out of a Parliament with 129 seats the SNP can now form a majority government and put forward a referendum on Scottish independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13305522

This is quite a remarkable result. Even the most optimistic SNP supporters didn't think this was a realistic possibility. The electoral system followed in Scotland (additional member system) is the same as that used in Germany. In over 60 years this proportional representation system has never produced a majority for either of the main German parties (CDU or SPD).

So how do we explain this emphatic result? Does this mean the Scottish people are signalling an overwhelming desire for independence by supporting the SNP so emphatically?

Not necessarily. The picture is a lot more complicated. Firstly, one needs to see this result in the context of United Kingdom politics. The Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition formed in May 2010 has entered into the most dramatic programme of cuts in public sector and benefits in modern political history.

Like the rest of the UK 'Celtic fringe' (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) Scotland's economy is very heavily reliant on a large public sector. In addition the political culture of Scotland is quite different from England in having a long tradition of being overwhelmingly left of centre. The Conservative party have little support in Scotland. Memories of Margaret Thatcher have not been forgotten or forgiven by many Scots. In Scotland the Conservatives are still seen by most Scots as an alien essentially 'English 'party. The Liberals do have a long history of support in Scotland (especially in the Highlands and Islands). However, their association with the current coalition (and U-turn on pre-election policies) has seen their support collapse in Scotland as in the rest of the UK.

One might have expected the Labour party in Scotland to benefit from resentment against the coalition. Over the last 50 years Scotland has been an overwhelmingly Labour party domain. It has been joked that in certain parts of Scotland labour party votes were weighed not counted. Yet far from benefiting from this situation the Labour party support has totally collapsed in its heartlands in favour of the SNP.

So why has the SNP emerged as the dominant political force at these elections? I think there are several explanations.

1 The SNP have run a minority government in Holyrood (aka Scottish Parliament) since 2007 which even its opponents have conceded was generally successful and efficient. While they only had a 1 seat majority over the Labour party the SNP were able to form good relationships with the other parties and Scottish local authorities. However, many of the SNP domestic policies were blocked by their unionist opponents. It seems many voters wanted to see the SNP given a chance at assuming the full reigns of power.

2 The SNP were able to present themselves as the genuine champions of Scotland defending its public services against the cuts being implemented by the Con-Dem government in London. In England the Labour party has taken on the mantle of the defender against the excesses of the Con-Dem coalition cuts. However, they have been completely unsuccessful in assumming that role in Scotland. Perhaps because unlike English voters Scottish voters had a choice of another left of centre party outside the coalition. Plus many voters also blame the Labour party for the UK's economic woes. In Scotland the 'untainted' SNP successfully gave voters the perception it was the party most likely to resist the cuts by 'batting for Scotland'.

3 The Labour party ran a very negative campaign focusing on the threat of independence if the SNP was elected. This kind of scare tactics seems to have seriously backfired as most voters understood this could only be decided by a separate referendum.

4 The personality of Alex Salmond, the leader of the SNP, has also been a definite plus for the SNP. Salmond is undeniably a charismatic and extremely clever politician who has shown the ability to perform better than the other Scottish party leaders. He is undeniably a 'big beast'. The problem for the other parties such as Labour is that many of their most talented politicians choose to serve in the UK parliament rather than in their native Scotland. This has given the distinct impression that unionist parties see the the Scottish parliament as the 'second division'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Salmond

So there are really many explanations for this result. One certainly cannot assume a vote for the SNP automatically converts to support for independence.

Opinion polls have led to widely varying outcomes. As always it depends on the wording chosen with 'separation' from the United Kingdom much less popular than 'independence'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Public_opinion

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
I will be following this thread with interest as it raises many interesting questions regarding national/regional independency contrary to being part of a union. The devlopments are interesting in terms of England being signified by Aries and Scotland by Cancer. The signs are separated by square. Are the diffences/differences in needs that obvious?


You raise an interesting topic I keep meaning to research properly. The astrological associations of countries. How far back to these go? In some cases they are very ancient. I have meant to try and track down the first astrological reference to Scotland as Cancer. There seems to be a focus on the water triplicity in the far NW of europe with Norway Scorpio.

I do personally think this association is quite descriptive of the Scots. We are quite literally a 'clannish' country and there is a much stronger sense of community and social inclusiveness than in England. The chart for the current Scottish Parliament has Sun in Cancer.

Still the union with England has endured for over 300. There has clearly been a lot of synastry too.

Moreover, the traditional 'national chart' used by Scottish astrologers is Leo rising/Aries MC. I will be discussing that chart later along with several others.

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
Only a few weeks ago, at the sports section I asked why in some contests the United Kingdom is entered, while in other events the union is split down into England, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland. What will happen with the Union Jack?


One of the unique factors of Scotland's union with England is that it retained totally separate institutions in regards the law, religion and education. So Scotland has always had this hybrid nature of being part of United Kingdom but unique in many respects. There has been discussion of merging the Scottish Football team into a UK team but it has never gained much popular support. The Scottish Football Association is the second oldest in the world. Scotland even has distinct football leagues and the two biggest teams in Scotland (Glasgow Rangers and Celtic) do not play in the English league.

Its ironic that an independent Scotland would have a ready made flag in the Saltire which is already flown from Scottish government buildings. However, the rest of the United Kingdom would need to redesign the national flag as the Scottish Saltire is the white St Andrews cross in the Union Jack.

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
In modern times Scandinavia and the Nordic countries also included Finland and Iceland, although the Finnish have some historical relation to the Swedish, the Finish are not Scandinavians.


I suppose of you define Scandinavia in purely linguistic terms your right. Although I notice some seek to expand the definition in geographical terms to include Finland and even Estonia. Finland does have a significant Swedish minority. Plus both Finland and the ethnic Estonians were culturally Lutheran.

Andrew wrote:
Quote:
Norway is such a long-stretched country and the differnces of needs and priorities in the northern and southern regions are so large that occasionally the discussion of whether northern regions should move for independency does occur - splitting Norway into two.


The same point has actually come up in Scotland. In particular in regards Orkney and the Shetland Islands.

The Earls of Orkney and Shetland were descended from Norwegians jarls who left their homeland to seek dominions overseas in the wake of Harold Fair Hair's (863-933) establishment of strong royal power in Norway.

It wasn't until the late 15th century that these Islands became Scottish rather than Norwegian.

In 1468 the new king of Scotland, James III, was arranged to marry King Christian's daughter, Margaret. Her father, unable to pay much of her promised dowry, pledged instead the sovereignty and his royal estates in Orkney and Shetland. By 1472 the dowry still remained unpaid and James annexed the Earldom of Orkney and the Lordship of Shetland to the Scottish Crown. The Scottish kings had at last succeeded in gaining control of the mainland and all the islands of Scotland.

In modern times there has been a small independence movement in the Shetlands. There is even a proposed Shetland Islands flag. Shetlanders like to emphasize their Nordic heritage. Scottish nationalists have long claimed 'its Scotland's oil' however the Shetlanders can justifiably retort that for the bulk of the reserves 'its Shetlands oil' Smile

The question arises what does independence really mean in the early 21st century in a world where supranational institutions like the European Union and World Bank dictate the economic policies of so many countries? The SNP cleverly acknowledged this reality in one of their old slogans : 'Independence in Europe'. There are all kinds of questions raised by independence such as would UK financial instutions flee Edinburgh and would an independent Scotland seek to join the Euro, or still retain the pound as a working currency? What share of North Sea oil reserves would Scotland get? What proportion of the sizeable UK national debt would an independent Scotland inherit?

Mark
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I suppose of you define Scandinavia in purely linguistic terms your right.

Culturally, historically and ethnically, too. Link: Wikipedia

I included the bit about Scandinavia only to add some global/cultural perspective. It is really interesting in terms of the United States and the European Union, too. And, of course, there is the history of the USSR. The topic will remain Scottish Independance and the consequences this has upon the United Kingdom.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Lunlumo,

you forgot Cinco de mayo - aka 5 May 1862 is also Mexican Independence day. Smile

I agree with you that it is a long time connection with independence.

1215 rebel barons renounce their allegience to King John

1789 - the Estates General Meets in Paris, for the first time since 1614, which lead to the eventual writing of "the rights of man."

1891 Tchaikovsky is the first conductor to open at the music hall that became Carnegie hall (I know non sequitor, but its Tchaikovsky)

1925 the government of South Africa recognizes Africaans as an official language.

1941 - Liberation day for Ethiopia

1945 - Netherlands and Denmark liberated from the Nazi's

1946 International Tribunal for the far east opens in Tokyo

1955 West Germany gains full sovereignty

1961 - alan shepard is the First American in space (no we aren't forgetting Yuri, just wasn't a 5 may incident)

1964 - council of Europe declares 5 May Europe Day


But I have to say I pointed out the independence oriented items of the day, there are a number of items that might be seen as the reverse for this day.

1260 - Kubla Khan becomes ruler of mongol tribes

1494 - Columbus claims Jamaica for Spain

1640 - Charles the first dissolves the short parliament.

1809 - Swiss Canton denies citizenship to Jews

1860 - Guiseppe Garibaldi sails from Italy to conquer the two Sicily's

1877 - Sitting Bull leads a band of Lakota into Canada to avoid Harassment by American Troops.

1886 - the Bayview massacre or tragedy depending on your point of view. Militia fire into a group of protesters in Milwaukee Wisconsin, killing seven people. (Gee I wonder if Scott Walker was behind that one too? tongue firmly in cheek)

1925 John T Scopes arrested for teaching Evolution in to High schoolers.

etc...

okay just a short view of the 5th of may. What time do polls close in Scotland?

thanks, Granny.







Granny
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granny_skot



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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided to run the brady parans for this as well, because I wondered, so for the 5th of May 2011 from Edinburgh you get: (I will highlight a couple interesting ones)

Chart, 5 May 2011 (Edinburgh, Scotland) Heliacal stars and parans according to Bernadette Brady Star list: B.Brady (64 stars); Orb for parans: 0°30' in RA; for position at axis: 1°00' in RA Method: Real parans between two sunrises

Your heliacal rising star: Deneb Algedi (68 days earlier)
Seeking the laws that govern the world, endeavoring to help others in ones country.

Your heliacal setting star: Castor (43 days earlier) the Story Teller
Being drawn into polarities- seeks the lighter side of stories.

Stars at Natal Horizon or Meridian
Regulus (Cul, 0°21')heart of the lion -Natural Leader, one who rises above petty squabbles. Cromwell had this alignment. So something to consider.


Stars Rising ("Stars of Your Youth")
Sun Zubenelgenubi (Set-Rise, 0°03',cp)
A time of salvation

Moon El Nath (Rise-Rise, 0°16')
A group suffers from the cruelty of others
(I wonder about this translation, because it hasn’t been displaying itself that way recently?IMO)

Mars Spica (Set-Rise, 0°16')
A time when well planned intelligent action wins through.


Saturn Alkes (Rise-Rise, 0°22')
A vessel is broken, the laws or leaders are changed.


Neptune Zosma (Set-Rise, 0°05',cp)
Loss of culture, loss of History, loss of objects that are precious to the collective.
(The Stone?)


Stars in Culmination ("Stars of Your Prime")
Sun Zubenelgenubi (LCul-Cul, 0°12',cp)
Time of Salvation

Moon Spica (Set-Cul, 0°02'),
The hope that new Technology will save the day.
(Annie Oakley had this alignment)

Moon Aldebaran (Cul-Cul, 0°09'),
Environmental Concerns

Moon Altair (Rise-Cul, 0°12')
People emotionally moved by acts of courage.

Mercury Procyon (Set-Cul, 0°03'),
The completion of a time of glory.

Mercury Mirach (Cul-Cul, 0°27')
A time when a Mediator can find Middle Ground.


Venus Procyon (Set-Cul, 0°07'),
A new Fashion Statement

Venus Facies (Rise-Cul, 0°11'),
A time of Ruthless approach to social reform, or Savage artistic comment.


Venus Vega (Rise-Cul, 0°15')
A celebration of the arts. A charismatic person takes center stage.


Mean Node Aculeus (Cul-Cul, 0°01')
A hard won victory

Stars Setting ("Stars of Your Latter Years")
Sun Aculeus (Rise-Set, 0°01')
Society gains by being challenged

Mars Scheat (Set-Set, 0°09')
Confident of resources, physical strength, or the military might of the nation.
(Richard the Lion Heart had this alignment)


Saturn Alphecca (LCul-Set, 0°04',cp)
People working together to get through difficult times.

Neptune Sadalsuud (Set-Set, 0°17'),
Win or lose, all hangs on a single outcome


Neptune Regulus (Rise-Set, 0°22')
The leader fails, The king is dead.


Mean Node Diadem (Set-Set, 0°12',cp),
A time when the nameless are honored.

Mean Node Alhena (Rise-Set, 0°21')
A key point in time and space where events have lasting meaning.


Stars in Lower Culmination ("The Hearthstone of Your Life")
Mercury Sirius (Rise-LCul, 0°17'),
A publication OR the Words of a person have far reaching repercussions.


Mercury Diadem (Cul-LCul, 0°24',cp)
The needs of people win through.

Jupiter Alhena (Rise-LCul, 0°23')
A person acts with strong belief.

Mean Node Aculeus (LCul-LCul, 0°03')
A hard won victory.

Granny
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Granny/Lunlumo,

Personally I only tend to focus on parans that are exact for the time of a chart in natal. Otherwise you get a bewildering array of star parans connections for a whole day. Still, maybe for mundane we can be more flexible.

I hadn't thought of giving so much focus on the day of the election as you and Lunlumo appear to be picking up. Maybe I missed a trick. Thing is all the previous Scottish elections fall around this date too. Confused

Anyway, the close of polls was at 22:00 BST.



Personally though I am keeping an eye out for the time of the opening of the new Parliament.

The current pile up in Aries has a lot of relevance to both the SNP and Scottish national chart. More to follow on that in my next post....

The Aries Ingress chart is worth a look too:



Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologise for not updating this thread sooner. It appears I was correct in thinking the SNP would hold a referendum later rather than sooner. The Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has made it clear this will be a few years away. Before we look at some charts lets examine some background to the SNP and the issue of a referendum.

Background -The Scottish National Party
Founded in 1934 the party was in political obscurity until the late 1960’s when it won a surprising bye election victory at Hamilton in 1967. The next big breakthrough came in the early 1970's and reached a peak in the October 1974 General election when the party won 11 MPs in the Westminster parliament. Much of the impetus for this upsurge in nationalism in this period was the discovery of oil reserves in the North Sea around northern Scotland. The devolution of power to a Scottish parliament came in 1999 and gave the nationalists a new arena to take forward Scottish political issues. However, they were a minority force in the first two administrations until 2007. At the 2007 Scottish Parliament election the SNP obtained one more seat than the Labour party. This allowed them to form a minority government.

However, all these results have been eclipsed by the result of the 2011 election which gave the party a landslide victory and a mandate to hold a referendum on independence at the time of their choosing. There are many factors to explain this success which I have already cited. However, undoubtably a major one is the charismatic personality of the current SNP leader Alex Salmond.

Referendum on Independence?
It might seem a simple matter but the legality of a referendum on independence is quite complex. Who can call a referendum on Scottish independence depends on what question is to be put to the voters. The powers of the Scottish Parliament are limited, and it may not pass legislation that "relates to" reserved matters, including the Union of Scotland and England. Key provisions of the Treaty of Union also cannot be amended by the Scottish parliament ( often referred to as ‘Holyrood’ due to its location). This does not prohibit a consultative referendum, about whether there should be negotiations between the Scottish and UK governments over independence. This much clearly is within the Scottish Parliament's powers. But that is as far as it can go. A referendum bill that purported to create a legal basis for independence directly would be beyond the powers of the Scottish Parliament. So even if the consultative referendum did produce a majority in favour of independence it would only give the Scottish government authority to carry out negotiations with the Westminster parliament. The SNP government are obviously hoping such negotiations would lead to independence. However, there is some debate on whether another referendum vote on independence would not be required so the voters could be consulted on the specific terms of any independence proposals agreed between the Edinburgh and London parliaments.


Based on comments from the new First Minister, Alex Salmond it appears the SNP might well seek two ballot questions. One would offer outright independence while the other would offer increased devolved powers to the parliament. This latter option would give powers to create a federal arrangement with the rest of the United Kingdom similar to the Canadian province of Quebec. In this scenario most tax raising powers would be transferred to the Scottish Parliament while the United Kingdom government reserved control of matters such as defence and foreign policy.

Here is the chart for the Scottish National Party (SNP). The chart is untimed and set for noon.



Here is a Biwheel with the SNP chart inside and transits for the close of polls on the outer wheel.


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Mark
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before discussing the SNP Chart I want to display another chart:




The most commonly used chart for Scotland by Scottish astrologers is that of the crowning of Malcolm II at Scone on 25 March 1005 at noon.

This serves a similar role to the 1066 chart for England with the coronation of King William I. While there were several earlier Scottish kings these kingdoms had a territory which was essentially north of the Firth of Forth and exclusively Pictish/Scots. King Malcolm brought the south western kingdom of Strathclyde (British aka Welsh) and the northern part of Northumbria (Angles) under the control of the Scottish crown for the first time. In 1034, the Kingdom of Strathclyde was formally merged with that of Alba, and Scotland was formally born, albeit at this time without the Western Isles and the Orkneys and Shetland which were still under Norse rule.

Under Malcolm II's reign the Scottish border with England was also extended southwards to the river Tweed where it broadly remains to this day. The conquest of NE Northumbria would have long lasting significance. This south-eastern part of Scotland would eventually influence the move to a variant of English becoming the adopted language of most of Scotland (as opposed to Gaelic). Moreover, the future political capital of Scotland, Edinburgh would be in this part of the Kingdom.

Delineation

Possibly the main surprise this chart poses for people who have not come across it is the lack of an emphasis on the sign of Cancer excluding that debilitated Saturn in Cancer in the 12th house. In terms of a single sign Scotland is traditionally attributed to Cancer.

The 1005 chart is very fiery with Leo rising and no less than four traditional planets in Aries!

So Leo rising? Not so surprising really. The Royal Standard of Scotland's Kings was the Lion Rampant.



Anyone attending Scottish Football Internationals will have seen a few of these!

By whole sign houses there is an extremely strong emphasis on the 9th house. No less than 4 traditional planets and the MC. Mars is the MC ruler in the 9th in fiery , cardinal Aries square a debilitated Saturn in Cancer in the 12th. Scotland embraced the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century with a singular passion and fire brand preachers like John Knox created a tradition of austerity and uncompromising religious conviction that endured for centuries. The advent of Irish Catholic emigration in the 19th century created a nasty sub current of sectarianism that has still finds an outlet today amongst the more idiotic element of football supporters.

When Scotland did form the United Kingdom with England it retained a separate legal system and a completely independent educational system. Similarly, the religious development of Scotland was quite different to England. The middle of the road religious eclecticism between Protestantism and Catholicism eventually adopted by the Church of England was not adopted in Scotlland. The national Church of Scotland adopted a strict Calvinist creed similar to the Protestant Netherlands and Switzerland.

The experience of the Highland clearances started a tradition of sizeable Scottish emigration across the world that continued up to the 20th century. Scottish immigration has had a major influence on countries such as Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand. Some of the world’s most famous explorers were Scots, David Livingstone and Alexander MacKenzie, who named the MacKenzie river in Canada, being two examples.

Mars in the 9th (antiscion the Moon) could also reflect the role of Scottish military traditions during the period of the British Empire and both world wars.

That Mercury in the 9th in cardinal Aries , trine the Leo ascendant, and conjunct Uranus may also be a reflection of Scottish inventiveness. For its small size Scotland does seem to have produced a disproportionate numbers of inventors:

http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/big-ideas/scottish-inventors.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries

It may also reflect travelling combined with innovative writing and artistic expression: Robert Louis Stevenson and Charles Rennie Mackintosh, neither of whom ended their days in their native land, but both of whom exerted powerful influence as writers and artists, are good examples.

That Mars (MC ruler)-Saturn (Lord 7) square also picks up themes from Scotland's complex and at times painful history with its neighbour to the south. Experiences such as the wars of independence , Flodden field, Cromwell's invasion, the battle of Cullodden (1745), and the suppression of the Gaelic language which followed, and the Highland Clearances all still festered in the national psyche. More recently the premiership of Margaret Thatcher, despite her popularity in much of England, probably did more to stir Scottish resentment against the UK government than any predecessor. Its was the experience of this period that created the demand for Scottish devolution.

One social problem that continues in Scotland relates to excessive alcohol consumption. The 6th house Neptune square a Rx Venus in fall (IC ruler), MC and Sun seems to symbolize this theme. Yet in more religious times much of Scotland was firmly teetotal. We dont seem good at finding a happy medium. Jupiter (Lord 5) in detriment Gemini in the house of 'good spirit' may also reflect this.

Moon in Virgo in 2nd House indicates prudent money management as the nations fortune wax and wane. Built on the protestant work ethic Scottish Banking has been a major force in the Scottish economy for centuries. Mercury (Lord 2) in the 9th house. Edinburgh has been one of the largest centres of financial services in Europe after London.

However, occasionally such the prudence can go off the rails. That could be the trine to Neptune, or the Moon as Lord 12.

One infamous example was the so called 'Darien experiment' where a Scottish colonial project in Panama led to financial ruin for the whole country. This was a major driver in explaining why the Scottish upper classes supported the Union with England in 1707 as the debts from the Darien experiment would be written off and Scotland given access to English markets overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

More recently of course we have witnessed the the financial meltdown of the International banking crisis and Scottish financial institutions such as the Royal Bank of Scotland and HSBOS have had to be bailed out on a massive scale by the UK government. Like the Darien scheme the cause was a financial bubble rooted in unrealistic investments.

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus


Last edited by Mark on Sun May 29, 2011 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1049

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Mark!

This is such an interesting thread- I've enjoyed reading both your analysis and your thorough introduction into the social life and history of Scotland. I will surely follow this thread in the future.
(Besides, I love your country! Smile )


Quote:
Possibly the main surprise this chart poses for people who have not come across it is the lack of an emphasis on the sign of Cancer excluding that debilitated Saturn in Cancer in the 12th house. In terms of a single sign Scotland is traditionally attributed to Cancer.
So Leo rising? Not so surprising really.


I was surprised to see this, i admit! Leo rising is the last thing I expected to see in the chart of a country with app.1100 sunshine hours a year. Smile
But, after reading your delineation of the chart, it really does make a lot of sense.
What other dates are used by the astrologers in Scotland?

And, is the time of birth of your current prime minister known? His chart must be very interesting!

Cheers,

aglaya
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aglaya



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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, yes, and I something I forgot to mention; regarding the Asc/national flag connection, I remembered another example of a flag 'ruled by Leo' - Macedonia also has one.



In the ancient times it even had a stylized picture of a leo in both the flag and (as far as I know) the coat of arms.

It gained independence on the 8th September 1991. at 19.00h. This puts the Ascendant of the national chart in Taurus and its ruler, Venus, on IC and in Leo.

I just though you might find this an interesting example!

Cheers again!
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aglaya wrote:
Quote:
This is such an interesting thread- I've enjoyed reading both your analysis and your thorough introduction into the social life and history of Scotland. I will surely follow this thread in the future.
(Besides, I love your country! )


Well thanks. Lala Happy I thought I was getting a bit carried away. Glad you are enjoying it. So have you been to Scotland?

Aglaya wrote:
Quote:
I was surprised to see this, i admit! Leo rising is the last thing I expected to see in the chart of a country with app.1100 sunshine hours a year. But, after reading your delineation of the chart, it really does make a lot of sense. What other dates are used by the astrologers in Scotland?


I accept a cold, moist country like Scotland does sound like it should really have a chart more strongly watery in character. Laughing The research for this chart was principally carried out by an Edinburgh based astrologer Violet Milne some decades ago. Other Scottish astrologers (Caroline Gerard, Anne Whitaker, Marjorie Orr) who have written on Scotland in mundane affairs have tended to go along with her research.

Being an idiosycratic type I have not accepted this chart unquestioningly. For example, as the Scottish royal line was interrupted during the wars of independence I have considered several charts for the restoration of the Scottish royal line with the the crowning of Robert The Bruce in (1306). Then there is the decisive battle of Bannockburn (1314) which ended English military power in Scotland. Alternatively the Declaration of Arbroath (1320) which asserted Scottish national sovereignity in a declaration addressed to the Pope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath

http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

The classic line from the document still sounds topical in our modern world.

Quote:
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.


Some academics believe this document had an influence on the framers of the American Declaration of Independence.

http://www.scottishinventionamerica.com/work1.htm

Especially Thomas Jefferson who , like many prominent colonial Americans, was educated by a Scottish academic. One fundamental difference in the political theory of Scotland is that unlike Magna Carta in England Scots have always believed sovereignty rests with the people not with the monarch/or Parliament.

Another possibility is a chart for the final peace treaty between Scotland and England when Scotland's status as a fully independent nation was finally given legal recognition in the Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton (1328).

I am still investigating all these charts and cannot say I have done enough research to reach a definitive conclusion yet. For now I am going along with the 1005 chart as it seems to respond well to significant events in Scottish history. There does seem a connection to Aries around the MC or 10th house whole sign. A Cancer rising chart would fit these.

Aglaya wrote:
Quote:
And, is the time of birth of your current prime minister known? His chart must be very interesting!


We have a time for all Scottish births as they are all on our birth certificates! I have his data and will be discussing Alex Salmond's chart in some detail later in the thread.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



I find it hard to believe I have neglected this thread without an update for so long!

My apologies for that.

I have decided to do two posts to bring the thread up to date. Firstly, this thread will update members on the current political dynamics of this issue. I will also be putting out a separate post soon just exploring the astrology of this issue. This will be one of several posts where I plan to build up to a clear cut prediction of whether I think Scottish independence will take place or not. Those people just interested in the astrology without the background politics can therefore just skip this post.

Recent Poitical Developments

Since the Scottish National Party (SNP) won their landslide victory last May the issue of a Scottish independence has assumed more space in UK domestic discussion. The issue began to really heat up on a UK level in early in 2012 when David Cameron criticised the SNP leader (Alex Salmond) for failing to set a date for the referendum vote.

Salmond eventually responded by stating the referendum would take place in the Autumn of 2014. Since then there has been considerable friction between the SNP led government in Edinburgh and the UK government of David Cameron. This friction has also been mirrored in Scottish domestic politics where the pro-unionists parties ( Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat) have continually clashed with the SNP government over their proposals for an independence referendum.

To summarise the main areas of disagreement have included the following:

Is UK Government Agreement Required?

The SNP led Scottish government has taken the view that it has the right to hold a unilateral advisory referendum on independence without the consent of the UK government. However, this would not be legally binding on the UK government. Thus a pro-independence result from such a ballot would not have recognition in international law.

In January 2012, the UK Government expressed the contrary opinion that the holding of any referendum concerning the constitution would be outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Lord Wallace, the Advocate General for Scotland, said that private individuals could successfully challenge a referendum bill passed by the Scottish Parliament. The UK Parliament could temporarily transfer legal authority to the Scottish Parliament to prevent this, but the Scottish Government has objected to the attachment of conditions to any referendum by this process. It therefore appears that for an independence vote to be legally binding it would first require primary legislation passed by the UK government in Westminster.

There are historical precedents for this in the past with UK governments passing legislation for such votes in Ireland in the 1920’s and Northern Ireland in the early 1970’s. In practical terms then to achieve a legally binding referendum result the SNP does require the co-operation of the UK government in agreeing arrangements on issues such as the timing, administration and the wording of the referendum question itself.

Timing of the Referendum?

Alex Salmond’s position is that the referendum will take in Autumn 2014. David Cameron and the Scottish opponents of the SNP maintain this is too long to wait as it is generating economic uncertainty in Scotland. Hence it is suggested key investment decisions by both the UK government and private companies could be delayed until the outcome of the vote.

There have also been allegations that the SNP are delaying the vote in the hope exploiting the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn in 2014. The assumption is that this will see a resurgence of Scottish national pride and identity which will favour the pro-independence vote. David Cameron and the UK government Scottish Secretary Michael Moore have continually questioned why a vote cannot occur in 2013. Ultimately, the SNP position is that since they have an overwhelming majority in the Scottish parliament it is a matter for them and not the business of the UK government to dictate to them.

Wording of the Referendum

The SNP government has proposed its preferred wording for the referendum

‘’Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?’’

This in itself has stirred debate with arguments that the proposed question is biased.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/jan/26/scottish-independence-snp


One question or two?

Since being elected to power last year Alex Salmond has stated he backs a "yes/no" ballot but is open minded on including a second "devo max" question. His political opponents in Scotland and England have attacked this position and have argued an independence vote needs to be clear and unambiguous. The option of two questions it is argued could create confusion.

It also suggested that the SNP have floated a second question as a safety net in case they lose the independence vote. While all the unionist parties have opposed a second question on further devolution combined with an independence vote there has been increasing discussion by the Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties for what has been variously called Devo Max or Devo Plus.

What is Devo Max / Devo Plus?

‘Devo’ Max or Plus represents a greater degree of fiscal autonomy for Scotland while still remaining part of the United Kingdom. Under the current system the Scottish parliament already has substantial law making powers.

At present the Scottish government has control of the following functions:

• Agriculture, Forestry, Fisheries and Food
• Culture, Media and Sport
• Economic Development
• Education
• Employment
• Environment
• Health
• Home Affairs
• Legal System
• Local Government and Housing
• Social Services
• Transport


The United Kingdom government largely retains exclusive control of the so called ‘reserved powers’:

• Taxation
• Economic Policy
• Welfare Benefits and Pensions
• Currency
• Immigration Law
• Defence
• Foreign Policy
• Human Rights & Employment legislation

The discussion over Devo max or plus largely revolves around assigning greater tax raising and budgetary control to Scotland. At present the Scottish parliament is largely funded like an enormous local authority receiving a block grant from the UK Parliament to cover its annual domestic budget. Devolution of tax raising powers would mean the Scottish parliament could raise a significant portion of its budget autonomously rather than relying on the decisions of the UK government. One model might be Spanish regions such as the Basque terriritory which have had the power to raise and set taxes for decades.


Extending Franchise to 16 & 17 Year olds?
The SNP government have made it clear they wish to extend the franchise to 16 and 17 year olds for the referendum vote. Critics have suggested this is a cynical attempt to increase the pro-independence vote as it is generally accepted that younger voters are more favourable to the idea of independence than older voters.
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
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