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Skyscript Astrology Forum

A perfected horary - but it said "No"??
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:18 am    Post subject: A perfected horary - but it said "No"?? Reply with quote

I have read Deb's notes regarding posting horaries. However, this is an "almost" perfected horary (will be perfected tomorrow), which in my humble opinion says "No", so I thought it would be OK to post this one. I was wondering if someone can explain how this ended up as a "Yes". I just don't think the indications are strong enough for it to have perfected.

Question asked "Will I be able to rent my downstairs studio at my asking price in 4 weeks". Question asked April 12, 2011, 7:06 PM, Kinnelon, NJ. I had been having a lot of trouble renting this out and needed to rent it out soon.

18 degrees 7 minutes Libra rising. I am represented by Venus, in the 5th in Sagittarius. The potential "rentor" is the 7th, Mars; the apartment would be the 4rth, Capricorn, ruled by Saturn and the price would be Cancer on the 10th, ruled by the Moon. Here's the chart:



The Moon is separating from a trine from Mars (rentor) and applying to Saturn (the studio apartment) by sextile in the 12th. Venus (myself) is very strong in exaltation and triplicity. The apartment is very strong , also in its exaltation, triplicity and face. The rentor is also very strong, in its rulership and face. Now that's all the positive.

BUT, there is no aspect between me (Venus) and Mars (rentor), although we are in mutual reception by term, which is very weak. The Moon is not strong at all in Leo, in no dignities - in fact, it is the weakest planet in the chart. The Moon is not in the dignities of any of the planets that it is translating the light from and to, so not sure how the translation could even take place.

Anyway, the end result of this horary is that about 7 people called and saw the apartment in quick succession. All of them loved it and said they would call back, but none did.

However, just 3 days ago, a young woman who is going for her PhD degree at a university saw the place, called the very next day saying she would like to take it, and is coming by tomorrow to give me a deposit on the studio. Now when I think about it, I could probably not ask for a better potential tenant! Someone mature and too busy working on her PhD to make too much noise or have loud parties downstairs!

I don't think this horary has enough positive indications to indicate a "yes". Unless something really unforeseen happens and she cancels tomorrow (seems unlikely), I can't see how this horary could have perfected like it did.

Any ideas, anyone? Thanks.
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Taurus7

I normally like to dwell on a chart for a few days before saying anything about it, but I have time now and won't have much over the next few days, so I'm perhaps writing this stuff down too early - I'll apologise in advance for any mistakes or daft statements :-)

I read your analysis and agree with your points about receptions and so on, but I didn't come out with a 'no'. I thought there was quite a bit of possibility in the chart, though maybe tempered by some cautionary points.

In addition to what you wrote, which all made sense to me, I saw that the Moon is in an angular house (thus able to perform) and in a Sign from which it can not only behold the Ascendant but it is making an applying sextile to the Ascendant and naturally a simultaneous applying trine to the cusp of the 7th.

In your question you said about your asking price. IMO the Moon being in the 10th highlights the importance of that. The Moon is the hour ruler as well, so IMO it has special importance in this chart. FWIW, it's swift too.

Despite the lack of sturdy reception all the Moon's aspects are trines and then there's that sextile to Saturn.

I also see that Saturn had recently been opposite the Sun, and thus what I think of as the 'cousin of Combustion' has been in effect.

With Jupiter in the process of emerging from Combustion proper and lying very close to an angle, despite lack of Essential Dignity perhaps there has been some assistance from this planet (albeit less than what we'd normally get from the Greater Benefic).

Mars emerging from the sun's beams too..... seems there are a few emergences from the Sun's glare here.

I wonder too if the angular Mercury retrograde shows sudden, unexpected news - the last minute arrangement. An even more last minute piece of news coming to light?

I think there are some cautionary notes though, besides the lack of receptions. The 6th house significator(s).... that Mercury retro.... Saturn retro.... and all those Aries planets, including Mars at home in its own Sign. Are you sure this potential tenant is as quiet as she seems?! I was thinking along the lines of maybe this could be someone who would tide you over the short term, but who might not be a long-term prospect.

One last thing I saw in the chart. Venus also rules the 8th - the money of a potential tenant - Essentially Dignified and trine the 10th (price)/sextile 4th (the flat). So far so good (although it can't behold the Asc...), and if you see Venus as in the 5th then all is well in terms of house position too, but with the '5 degree' idea for house cusps Venus would be in the 6th (by both Regio and Placidus).

I'm also wary of the fact that the Moon is bringing something to Saturn from a place of Saturn's detriment. Obviously the Moon is significator of the price, but it's also the situation itself and how it's developing, so again I'm inclined to wonder if it's saying something about the money situation, or even about the potential tenant, or perhaps just about the wider question/difficulty of renting this space out.

Just my somewhat rushed thoughts.... regardless of what happens, best of luck with the situation and I hope you get a beneficial arrangement asap.

Regards

H.
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tania



Joined: 23 Aug 2009
Posts: 28
Location: Perugia, Italy

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: A perfected horary - but it said "No"?? Reply with quote

Taurus7 wrote:

The Moon is not in the dignities of any of the planets that it is translating the light from and to, so not sure how the translation could even take place.


Saturn is moving towards an opposition with Mars. So the planets are mutually applying, which doesn’t require reception.
We also see the Moon angular, separating from Mars by trine mutually applying to a sextile with Saturn. so the Moon translates from Mars to Saturn, or in other words, the "rentor" is moving versus "studio".

I also think Hadn is right to have some diubts about this location. The 7th house ruler is cadent and the 4th is in the 12th of hidden enemies or unknown defects, so I think there is more to work out. I'll have another look at later.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the type of horary that frequently causes me to stumble in that there is some confusion about is it 'client' or 'tenant'?

If I'm understanding this correctly the 7th is the potential client and the 6th is the tenant.

So should we look at the 6th as the landlords potential tenant or future tenant rather than the 7th?

Clinton Garrett Soule
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tania,
I don't think I agree with you Smile An opposition does need reception, otherwise there will be no agreement, according to Lilly:
Quote:
Sometimes it happens, that a matter is brought to passe when the Significators have applyed by Opposition, but it hath been, when there hath been mutuall reception by House, and out of friendly Houses, and the Moon seperating from the Significator of the thing demanded; I have rarely seen any thing brought to perfection by this way of opposition; but the Querent had been better the thing had been undone;
I do think that the translation of light, the Moon seperating from Mars by trine and applying to Saturn by sextile looks promising. But there is more IMO: Jupiter, the great benefic is angular and we have a strong Sun in exaltation also angular, and the Moon is also angular in the 10th. Both luminaries are above the horizon and that looks good!
regards,
Tienka
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I would regard this chart as not being radical, because the Ascendant is in Via Combusta...

Reason for edit: bolding.
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Amor ordinem nescit.
Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -


Last edited by Tzadde on Mon May 02, 2011 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forum,

I have been reflecting for days on this 'potential tenant' horary, and as I previously mentioned I think we have been consulting the wrong house.

Why you say?

I remember on Dorothy Kovatch's Angelius Merlin Horary Forum, a discussion of a landlord horary simular to this one; and it was pretty much established if my memory doesn't fail me, that the 6th is for tenants according to Lilly.

As Pisces is on the 6H, with Jupiter soon will receive a trine by Luna, I'm going to have to say this did happen as the quesited should be answered by the 6th rather than the 7th.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Clinton

I'm going by previous threads on Skyscript for extra input on this, since I have no experience in the matter.

When it's come up before Deb's clarification has been that the 7th house is for a potential tenant whereas the 6th would be the right house to use for an actual tenant.

The reasoning is along the lines of....

...whilst a tenant is to some extent subservient to you, not on equal footing and with reduced power in the circumstances i.e. living on someone else's terms and property, subject to someone else's power, and hence can be found in the 6th house of a horary chart

whereas

....a prospective or potential tenant does not have that relationship with you, has not entered into that contract with you, and is an equal and free party in a buyer-seller relationship, and hence is designated by the 7th house.

Some of the threads are here......

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1989

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=814

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5822

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4363

However I do wonder if we don't contradict this logic in job/employment charts, the only difference being that a job isn't 'for sale' in quite the same way, but then arguably neither is a rentable flat, house, or room. Perhaps that's where the 'diviner's idiolect'* comes into play, where significators decided in advance will 'speak' to the diviner.

Nevertheless, I hope the above links help to flesh things out.

Regards

H.


* Some people - for instance, me, or perhaps Kirk Very Happy - might sometimes call this 'diviner's cop-out' Tongue Out
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D'oh!

Revisiting my first post in this thread I realise I took the Lord of the 7th house being in the 6th as a cautionary note, but it's surely a positive sign......

Regards

H.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm also wary of the fact that the Moon is bringing something to Saturn from a place of Saturn's detriment. Obviously the Moon is significator of the price, but it's also the situation itself and how it's developing, so again I'm inclined to wonder if it's saying something about the money situation, or even about the potential tenant, or perhaps just about the wider question/difficulty of renting this space out.

Thanks to all for their responses.
Handn, it's interesting that you said this. As it so happened, my potential tenant did come by on Friday but she did not have the deposit or letter of reference from her prior landlord, which I needed to reserve the studio for her. She promised to have it for me today (Monday) but she hasn't called me back yet, or picked up the phone when I called her.
On top of this, I received 3 more phone calls from others looking to see the studio who I have called back. Out of these, one does not seem a viable alternative, since they want to move in June or July, and only temporarily, and the other two have not returned my call yet!
Needless to say I am disappointed - I mean, I did not think it was a "Yes" to begin with, but I thought I had a good tenant!! Sad

BTW, there's one more thing I noticed, which is positive. The Ascendant is conjunct the part of Increase and Commerce - or I think it could have been Saturn, the apartment - I don't have the horary in front of me.

So would anyone like to revise their judgement in light of these new events?

- Taurus7 -
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Handn said:

Quote:
The reasoning is along the lines of....

...whilst a tenant is to some extent subservient to you, not on equal footing and with reduced power in the circumstances i.e. living on someone else's terms and property, subject to someone else's power, and hence can be found in the 6th house of a horary chart

whereas

....a prospective or potential tenant does not have that relationship with you, has not entered into that contract with you, and is an equal and free party in a buyer-seller relationship, and hence is designated by the 7th house.


Remembering the debate on AM on this very thing, the initial poster said she could see the matter in the 7th rather than the 6rd as most were arguing, as the tenant hadn't moved in yet.

So is it the general concensus that the 7th is all future or prospective clients of any matter?

I find it interesting that Saturn is cjt the asc.(artist needs help) by Lilly's five degree rule. And the Lord of the asc. is cjt the horary's 6th also by Lilly's five degree rule; the 6th being the house of tenants.

And yes the 6th is tenants, co-workers, employees, servants, slaves, protariets, etc. In principle most Landlords try to get a tenant who typically pays 25% to 33% of their monthly income in rent; at least that's what real estate tycoons Lowry and Nickerson teach in the USA.; in other words tenants are actually indirectly employees in a sense of the Landlord.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus7,

This is a tough one with Saturn on the Asc and in the 12th(Joy of Saturn), but the 12th of May hasn't arived yet so there is still time.

But I see that by assuming Mercury never perfected with Mars, lord of the 7th, having not looked in the ephemeris, but even though nothing applies to Mars, Mars does eventually cjt. Jupiter.

As discussed Jupiter rules tenants that one already has.

The only varible I see is the 'light factor' as the Moon will trine Jupiter before Mars perfects to Jupiter; other than Terms, Face, Dignitys, etc.


Clinton Garrett Soule
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 685

Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id say this is not going to perfect.

You have a translation of light between the Moon, Saturn and Mars (showing their will be contact between you and a potential tenant). Thing is though, those same planets then oppose each other from each other's detriments. The potential tenants don't look particuarly able to perform their duties and are represented by the out of sect malefic.

A thing which seems very important to me is Saturn (the property) retrograde and on the ASC (in your possession), I can see it "coming back to you", like you've thrown it out there, no one has grabbed it and it has come back (retrograde motion and placement being the key).
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A thing which seems very important to me is Saturn (the property) retrograde and on the ASC (in your possession), I can see it "coming back to you", like you've thrown it out there, no one has grabbed it and it has come back (retrograde motion and placement being the key).

That's an interesting take on this. However, I could (conceivably) interpret it a different way. This studio was initially "home" to the mother of the original owners of the house (it's a mother-daughter set-up) and it has been empty since we moved in 3 years ago (we never used it). The Saturn retrograde could indicate the studio going back to the state that it was in before we arrived; i.e. being "lived in" again.

I took another look at the horary and in reference to the various posts that others have made.

Regarding contact between me and the potential rentor, which, I believe, is the 7th, not the 6th...While we do not have an aspect, we do have mutual reception by term, and I think that makes perfect sense in the context of the relationship that would exist betweeen us. I have no other relationship with the potential tenant except "Hello" or "Goodbye" if I see them. I'm not friends with them or anything else.

Next, the position of Saturn in my 12th. However, if you use the 5 degree rule for horary, Saturn would, in fact, be in the ascendant since it is just less than 5 degrees away. Now as I recall Lilly, if you asked a question "Will I get the job", the 10th in the 1st is a very strong indication of perfection. Along the same lines, if I ask the question "Will I be able to rent out the apartment within 4 weeks", I am the querent: first; the apartment is the quesited: the 4rth. So the 4rth in the 1st seems to indicate to me perfection.

Next, Venus conjunct Jupiter, the greater benefic, and Jupiter conjunct the 7th, which I think gives me some help in this matter.

Next, Moon is coming to a sextile with Saturn BEFORE Mars can come to an opposition to it, which is prohibition; i.e. prohibits the Saturn/Mars opposition, and therefore inapplicable.

Next, Moon sextiles Saturn while Saturn is regtrograde, so although right now I'm kind of disappointed that it's still not taken, but I believe aspect via retrograde motion indicates something coming to perfection unexepectedly (right now I don't have many expectations, so if the apartment was to go, it would be "unexpected", if you know what I mean).

Finally, the Moon can represent me and the flow of events. Given that the Moon is not in any dignities, it is still accidentally dignified in the 10th, disposited by a very strong Sun in exaltation, and the final aspect of the Moon is a wonderful trine to the Sun, which is a really nice final aspect, in addition to the Sun being the ruler of the 11th (my hopes and wishes).

And once again, Saturn (apartment) is conjunct part of Increase and Part of Commerce.

While initially I thought my horary was a "no", I'm starting to think it may be a "Yes"! Thumbs up

My guess is that while the apartment may not go right away (the Moon is fast, which could indicate the quick succession of people that have called me about it, but a lot of the planets being retrograde are slowing things down or confusing matters), it will be very close to May 12th, the potential tenant may come unexpectedly, the money resources of the tenant will be strong (8th house, tenant's resources ruled by a very strong Venus) (which would rule out the graduate student who I never heard from again; her money resources were quite bleak) and I will be happy with the final outcome (Moon trine Sun).

Incidentally, 3 other people called since the graduate student never returned; 1 I ruled out, 1 was not a good fit (from her perspective and from mine as well), and one could have worked out but in retrospect, I think it might not have been wise to give it to him because he was just looking for something for 3 months.

So still nothing yet....
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus7 wrote:
Quote:
A thing which seems very important to me is Saturn (the property) retrograde and on the ASC (in your possession), I can see it "coming back to you", like you've thrown it out there, no one has grabbed it and it has come back (retrograde motion and placement being the key).

That's an interesting take on this. However, I could (conceivably) interpret it a different way. This studio was initially "home" to the mother of the original owners of the house (it's a mother-daughter set-up) and it has been empty since we moved in 3 years ago (we never used it). The Saturn retrograde could indicate the studio going back to the state that it was in before we arrived; i.e. being "lived in" again.


Yeah, if Saturn wasn't on the ASC I would be inclined to agree with you but him being there shows you having possession of the apartment; not something you want when the question was about someone else taking it on.
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