skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
A Correct Prediction: the NYC buiding strike, 1991
by Robert E. Zoller
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
Astrology and Cosmology in Early China: Conforming Earth to Heaven, by David W. Pankenier
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Astrology a "Pseudoscience"?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 130
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:59 pm    Post subject: Astrology a "Pseudoscience"? Reply with quote

I wrote a research project regarding the statements made by Mr. Thagard in the following academic paper;

http://www.box.net/shared/chr9hger8a

written in 1973, the paper highlights many of the still purported scientific views regarding horoscopic astrology (as witnessed by Deb's recent paper on the topic - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_a_trusted_science.html and the stance taken by BBC commentators apparently) and the motivations of practitioners of horoscopy.
If anyone has the time, please read the paper and let me know what you think about Thagard's "Criteria for demarcating Astrology as Science", with the following in mind, Do you believe Astrology can be judged by modern scientific standards?

Thanks-
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3866
Location: England

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Estebon

Glad to hear you are taking this matter up. Do you know if it is possible to print that paper? I don't have time to read it at the moment but was planning to print it and read it on a journey - but that doesn't seem possible; or maybe I am missing something obvious.

(As an 'academic' paper I think it is poor-quality. For example, it is like Thagard found a joke and so created footnote 2 to share it; even though it adds nothing substantial to his argument).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 130
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi deb,
I re-uploaded the file, should print now, or at least you can download it then print/toss it.

let me know if it works
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 130
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is the new link;

http://www.box.net/shared/chr9hger8a


i also forgot to post the other questions I sent around to my local astrological community.

feel free to give your opinion if you'd like, reading the paper isn't necessary to offer an opinion;)


1) Do you consider yourself a practicing horoscopic astrologer?

2) Are Horoscopic Astrologers in agreement about the mathematical principles behind calculating the Ascendent, Horoscope or rising degree? explain (less than 100 words)

3) What are the advancements, if any, done in the field of horoscopy since the time of Ptolemy? be succinct (less than 100 words)

4) Does the astronomical phenomenon known as "Precession of the Equinoxes" affect the application of horoscopy?

5) Is astrology a replacement for or superior to psychology or psychological analysis?


6) Can horoscopic techniques be explained in 'Scientific' terms?
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 130
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soo box.net got a complaint about infringement issues concerning my posting a copyrighted paper...granted.
I guess thousands of dollars to the Academy to access JSTOR still has its limitations.
To any that read the paper and would like to continue discussions around the questions I posted, I will post the findings from my project once I have had it marked, returned and revised.
Until then please take these questions posted above as indicative of some of the issues scientists take with astrological suppositions. I personally find them flat and lacking in any research into particular astrological method.

sorry to anyone who was offended by my copyright faux paux, I was just trying to stimulate the conversation.
pardon
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Moderator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 998

Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't read the paper.

Quote:
1) Do you consider yourself a practicing horoscopic astrologer?


Depends on what is meant by practicing and by horoscopic. I use horoscopic astrology, in the sense that I use charts commonly referred to as horoscopes and do so regularly, daily I would imagine, but I do not do this for others as a professional paid service. If that is what is meant by practicing, then no.
If horoscopic is meant to refer to the incorrectly named sun sign style newspapers (sometimes referred to as horoscopes) then no.

Quote:
Are Horoscopic Astrologers in agreement about the mathematical principles behind calculating the Ascendent, Horoscope or rising degree?


Yes, as far as I'm aware. Any differences would be in calculating it more accurately I guess, but we already have a calculation. I can post the calculation if required.

Quote:
What are the advancements, if any, done in the field of horoscopy since the time of Ptolemy?


Whether something has 'advanced' is subjective, but it has changed certainly. There are a greater number of aspects that many use, stemming in a great part from Kepler, there are greater astronomical calculations today than Ptolemy's time, there are modern methods not known in Ptolemy's time which some use and some do not such as solar arc directions, midpoints, etc.

Quote:
Does the astronomical phenomenon known as "Precession of the Equinoxes" affect the application of horoscopy?


Yes it divides it into tropical and sidereal. Tropical is also affected by merit of the fact that the fixed stars will have moved through the zodiac from their positions. Notably regulus, the heart of the lion, is now in virgo.

Quote:
Is astrology a replacement for or superior to psychology or psychological analysis?


Astrology is a tool, its use is dependant upon the one wielding it.

Quote:
Can horoscopic techniques be explained in 'Scientific' terms?


Too vague a question, do you mean can the techniques used be scientifically explained? Pass. Ask a scientist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
christinawhite099



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 2

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice comment
=======

(Y: removing spam)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 50

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have not read the paper as neither link was available. Guess you enraged someone.

Am I a practiciing horoscopic astrologer? I am a student of astrology who has worked with horoscopes daily for 40 years. I do not operate a professional consulting practice. I think I can be described as a competent and knowledgeable practitioner.

If the question about precession refers to the "two zodiac" question and not individual horoscopes .... It is a matter of perspective. We can either assume that the fixed stars each hold specific powers (whoops, I think the folks who hold that astrology works by magnetism, gravity, etc have a little problem here), or we can take a more Earth-centered (less Cosmic) view and use the Tropical zodiac; the stars were used by the ancient astronomers as markers of position in what otherwise is a trackless void. The signs are not and never have been dependent on the stars. Science always looks for the simplest explanation of things, removes the extraneous or unnecessary (parsimony); the Tropical zodiac does just that, because it removes the need for stars and relies solely on the equinox to determine signs. We live on Earth, see the heavens from Earth's point-of-view, and our human-created astrology is concerned with human affairs.

Signs are essentially only "tools" for measurement, and not inherently possessed of powers. When the siderealists (or "scientific critics") say that the tropical zodiac does not take precession into account, it simply displays their ignorance. The fact that the equinox precesses and is measured each year to establish the Aries point certainly takes precession into account. I find it hard to imagine the Sun in Leo in the middle of blizzard. The two-zodiac question is like saying that only the English system of measurement (feet, inches, pounds, ounces...what a mes) is the only valid one and the Metric system is False. Both systems are capable of giving accurate measurements.

Assume a sky which contains NO stars whatsoever, but only the planets. The tropical zodiac allows us to continue practicing astrology just as we always have. The sidereal system simply falls to pieces. because it loses its point(s) of reference.

Can astrology be proved scientifically? Not in the terms of modern science, which is why the scientists reject it. But isn't astrology essentially the study of the correspondences between celestial facts and human affairs? If "scientific" proof is what is sought, then the consistently repeated coincidence of the astrological symbolism with external event seems to me rather convincing. The "set of mind" of most scientists makes it impossible for them to see beyond physical cause, as they understand it. We might say that the Virgo-Pisces dichotomy describes the situation regarding the Science-Astrology debate. The one mind is separative and atomistic; the other is all-inclusive and holistic. Hard to find the common ground. Jung's view of the extrovert-introvert division among humans leads us to the same place; the two seem to be mutually exclusive. (Perhaps not so exclusive if you hold the holistic rather than atomistic view; I keep abreast of scientific developments in all fields and find that science simply confirms my All-is-One vision of the universe, beginning with the Standard Cosmology.)[/u]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Dave



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 50

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Remarks continued Reply with quote

Astrologers world-wide agree on calculation of the Ascending degree. It is an astronomical fact that is subject to measurement.

Astrology is "more effective" than conventional psychology in that it not only describes the inherent nature of the psyche, but also gives insight into both the nature and timing of the adventitious influences affecting the inherent nature and its development.

Here is an example of what I mean, from a recent consultation. The woman has Saturn 3 degrees east of the MC and Moon 3 degrees east of the IC. Their orb is therefore 6 degrees. Moon is in Aries. Midheaven directs to Saturn, and Moon to Nadir at age 3. I suggested to the woman that at age 3 there was a significant change of residence and the onset of a difficult parental relationship. She confirmed that at age 3 the family had moved from America to Europe, and there were indeed severe problems involving the parents. The Moon in Aries describes her own reaction to these events and the effects it has on her life. When this topic was opened, she later said that in recent consultations with a psychiatrist, he had focused on this age-period in her development.

I would not suggest (necessarily) that modern psychology and its methods be replaced by astrology, but astrology could be a very valuable adjunct to psychology, at the very least. And of course, in addition to the past influences on the life, astrology also shows us the present issues and opportunities in the life. All without benefit of extensive testing, and (depending on the orientation of the astrologer) not encumbered by the often "pathological" inclinations of psychology.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
SteveGus



Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Southern Indiana

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Do you consider yourself a practicing horoscopic astrologer?

I suppose so. I do not do so professionally, only as a hobby, but I occasionally set up horary charts for friends, in person or online, for others as an exercise. And I usually have a current horoscope running, largely because the regularities and the rising and setting of the planets intrigue me.

2) Are Horoscopic Astrologers in agreement about the mathematical principles behind calculating the Ascendent, Horoscope or rising degree? explain (less than 100 words)

As far as I know, yes.


3) What are the advancements, if any....


The discovery of Uranus and Neptune should count for something. (I would admit them as planets, but not assign rulerships to them yet. We don't have the 2000 years of observation yet that the Hellenistic astrologers had to determine the significance of their movements.

4) Does the astronomical phenomenon known as "Precession of the Equinoxes" affect the application of horoscopy?

Not in the kind I use. The signs are linked to the seasons because they relate to the classical elements, and the underlying dynamics of hot/cold and moist/dry, which are linked to the seasons in a way the stars themselves are not.

5) Is astrology a replacement for or superior to psychology or psychological analysis?


I don't know. But it does appear to me that the Myers-Briggs profile are an attempt to restate the classical temperaments without reference to the classical elements.

6) Can horoscopic techniques be explained in 'Scientific' terms?

That would depend on what you mean by "scientific". I tend to think that the kind of science that matters most involves a special kind of storytelling. The stories told by scientists are "explanations"; they enable us to know what happens next when we see or do something, and why it is happening. Astrological explanations are valid or invalid under the same criteria, and to that extent they are indeed scientific.
_________________
"Go to Bedlam and ask." - Rob't Burton
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dave



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 50

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveGus....you might find it interesting to "read" your own chart in detail, then take the Myers-Briggs test and study the personality it describes. My bet is that you will find the two descriptions fit hand-in-glove.

I hadn't thought of it before, but such a comparison, done on a relatively "large" scale and under controlled conditions would be a very good "scientific test" for astrology. Those astrologers who are interested in a replay of the Battle of Hebron (remember how those nasty old Philistines were defeated?) might work out a test of this type and offer a contest to the Scientific Goliath.

I once read a book on Hitler that contained, as an epilogue, an OSS report on him based on psychiatric methods. The shrinks were very accurate in predicting his future based on what was known of his psychology. Graphology also shows his suicidal plunge...his signature changed over time. These are "subtle" signs of the simple fact that all of a man's outer experience is in fact simply a projection of his inner self; we in truth create our own universe within our mind. If the horoscope is seen first and foremost as a charting of the individual psyche, then the life and destiny flow naturally out of that, assuming the premise that man's mind creates his reality. Which is why astrology is both "psychological" and "predictive".

I once met a guy who, when he learned I am an astrologer, said "I don't believe in that ****". I don't usually rise to the bait, but his attitude annoyed me. The man knew his time of birth. I sat down and calculated his chart. I noted that Saturn occupied the 4th House, Moon applied to his opposition from the 9th, and there was a 13 degree orb. I said to him, "Your mother went to a foreign country and you were saddled with a heavy responsibility when you were 13 years old," or something very close to that. His reaction was that he very literally almost fell out of his chair. The point of the anecdote is that an Event is seen in the chart (prediction) which is no more nor less than a projection of his psychological state (from birth and throughout life to death). Moon opposed Saturn (in potent mundane position) certainly describes many aspects of his state of mind; the psychology of an individual and the events that he meets in life are shown by the same astrological aspect.

Anyway, I noticed in another thread that some of the astrologers here are looking for a way to "convince" the scientists to take astrology seriously, and the mention of Myers-Briggs brought to mind how incredible, how exact, is the correspondence between my chart and my M-B profile. I would guess that a group of say 48 "pre-sorted" subjects (accurate birth times known and representative of the spread of the Myers-Briggs personality types) would be "statistically significant" enough to at least encourage some open-minded scientist to take a second look.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated