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Horary for discussion- Will this be a good trip?
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: Horary for discussion- Will this be a good trip? Reply with quote

This is a very interesting horary, submitted by Rhona Grant.

The basic details are below and I have just uploaded the full chart details
to http://horary.co/charts/trip.html
There is a return link at the bottom of that page to bring you back to this forum (It reads "[ Return link to the Skyscript discussion ]").

Lots of mysteries to explore here concerning where Rhona went and how the trip went. Feel free to chip in with odd comments and observations, or a full blown judgement. The full details will be revealed on April 20th, so until then we don't want to give much detail away by confirming judgments, but can offer advice on use of tecniques.

Thanks for sharing this Rhona!

Deb

PS - avoid the temptation to 'guess' what happened by giving the astrological reasons for the suggestions you make.



Rhona's Question:

This was my own personal horary question. My husband had planned a surprise holiday for my birthday. We would be leaving on the 18th September 2010 and I had no idea whether it would be in this country [England] or abroad, but knowing my husband I guessed it would be overseas. For some reason I felt uneasy about the trip. This was underlined by concern that I had a lot happening in my life at that time and so did not really feel I could take a week off for a holiday. I had recently started to study horary astrology so I decided to pose a question. Partly because I was bothered by this trip and partly because I felt it would be a good learning opportunity - to see how the horary played out against a situation that would soon enough have a known outcome.

I was interested in looking at the start of the holiday, the destination and the general circumstances of the holiday.

Because the outcome was far from straightforward, I am now interested in sharing the details of this situation, and welcome the opportunity of seeing how other astrologers, with more experience in horary, would interpret this chart.



Last edited by Deb on Tue May 17, 2011 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Goca



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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you are Sa exalted in 8 house, showing your worry about the trip (Ve despose Sa and is ruler of 9 house). Ve is in its own sign and because it is in 9 house it might be trip to Argentina. As, Ve, trip, exalted Sa, that trip will be good for you. On the other hand Ve is in Via combust way so trip can take an unpredictable Uranian turn of events.
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hervaro



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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not having CA at hand, so I might get some things twisted but here 's my try at it:
First of all: Pluto on the asc promises "some" upheaval; North Node in the 1st may hush this (being a significator of good things) or aggravate things (signifying growth and making baddies baddi-er).
You, Saturn L1, are exalted but also at un-ease (Libra, 8th).
First house also indicates (for a voyage) the start, taking off or departing. So the departure had some rather shaky or frightening elements with it.
MC and ruler show the trip itself: Scorpio on the 10th shows an intense experience; with ruler Mars in its detriment in Libra/9, a few things must have gone amiss! Luckily Mars hoovers on Spica, the most benign star of the Heavens, so there was protection in one way or another.
Mars by antiscion opposes retrograde Mercury in Virgo/8: strong winds or other shaky things spoilt the fun by means of fear(full events)...
7th house shows arrival and stay at the destination: Moon L7 in the 7th, peregrine in Leo: strong but unpredictable? Moon's changefullness in fixed Leo might indicate either being stuck, and/or having to confront one change after the other, over and over again. Moon's antiscion with Algol, and the Weeping Sisters at the cusp of the 5th house, seem to justify reading some kind of crisis in Pluto's conjunction with the ascendant.
Return home: 4th house. Pfffffewww! Venus L4 in Libra/9: a bit shaky (Via Combusta) but happy to be at home again!

That 's my contribution to a astrological travel-journal... :-)

Herman
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Virgo24



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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hervaro wrote:
MC and ruler show the trip itself:


I had not thought of using MC/10th for the trip - I used the 9th.

I suppose as the 10th can represent the outcome, perhaps it could be used as well
Thank you for that

Rhona - aka Virgo24
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hervaro



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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I had not thought of using MC/10th for the trip - I used the 9th.


Hi Rhona, yes that would indeed give the general idea about the trip; your mentioning "the start of the holiday, the destination..." made me look at the chart this way...
Never too late to add how the 9th house reads:

The trip by itself appears good, nice and well-behaved: Venus L9 strong in her own sign and house, escaping from a malefic Mars in his detriment. But wait a minute: Venus is heading straight ahead for Mars' dominion, where she 'll be in his power and her own detriment! Together with the Moon separating by trine from Jupiter and applying to Saturn by sextile, doesn't bode good: something about the trip seems deteriorating as time goes by...
(added just after posting:) You, Saturn L1, are in mutual reception with the trip/holiday, but "put away" as it were in the 8th, which is the 9ths 12th space; which I would read as being un-abled, lonely, maybe ill or having to confront other adversities!
And where did the trip take you? To an airy place with lots of art and culture? I cannot look up in CA now - and I don't even remember if Lilly gives this connection, but Antwerp in Belgium, my home-town, would fit, lol. Anyway, I am not sure how trustworthy the links between destinations and signs on cusps are... Confused
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handn



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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

In general I'm agreeing with Mooncazimi's take on it. I see retrograde Pluto on the Ascendant combined with the querent signified by Saturn in the 8th as anxiousness and a sense of foreboding and worry about things being out of control, both in terms of time off work and also the holiday itself. Saturn squaring its own sign/the Asc, and Moon not seeing its own sign and also unable to see the Ascendant added to the awkwardness of the whole situation.

I see Mars as two things.....

1) Ruling the 10th = the querent's work

2) William Lilly describes Mars in 9th as pirates and thieves, etc, (he also says says 10th can be any profit from the trip, which here might indictate a loss)

As for the Moon's sextile to Saturn, since the Moon is in Saturn's detriment Saturn won't like what the Moon brings. The sextile is a weak aspect and so it would need firm Receptions to make it useful/welcoming - the Term and Face Receptions are too weak IMO.

I think the separating trine of the Moon to the retrograde Jupiter Uranus conjunction shows the surprise element of the celebration. The separating aspect shows that it had already been arranged, and was being brought to the querent (the sextile to Saturn) after having been already organized.

I think the south node in the 7th shows a potential for things go awry in terms of the destination. I wondered if the Moon, as 7th-ruler of the destination, being placed in Leo showed a diversion to the route or to the end-destination itself.

As for countries, I haven't a clue really, but was very hesitantly starting to think along the lines of places like Egypt.... Italy.... because of the Moon being in Leo, and Venus being in Libra.

The two natural significators of travel - Mercury and Jupiter - both being retrograde, with one ruling the hour and the other being the Moon's last aspect, were relatively minor points in my analysis but reinforced the idea of reluctance to travel, and elements of surprise in relation to travel and journeys with perhaps the need to re-route or alter plans in light of developing events.

It's interesting to me that Mercury (the hour ruler) was retrograde at 9 degrees Virgo at the time of the question and had returned, this time direct, almost to the same place on the 18th of September - the planned departure date.

Regards

H.
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Virgo24



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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="handn"]It's interesting to me that Mercury (the hour ruler) was retrograde at 9 degrees Virgo at the time of the question and had returned, this time direct, almost to the same place on the 18th of September - the planned departure date.
Quote:


That is interesting and I hadn't noticed this - I need to take a closer look to see if it has any relevance.

I also agree that its very hard to narrow destinations down to specifics - much easier in retrospect! In Bill's book of rulerships - you could choose between 3 continents by the time you got to the letter "C".
R
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Tanit



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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't had a lot of practice with travel questions, so I may not have much to add.

I rarely see charts with Capricorn rising that don't have some sort of problem, just because the ASC ruler is Saturn and he is going to influence the over all situation. Saturn makes things more serious, he thinks about things more, and delays things or even rejects them, so as the querent it seems like maybe she was a bit of a party pooper for her husband, who is represented as Moon in Leo sextile Saturn. He is coming from the sign of detriment for Saturn (a luminary sign = life affirming for a matter whereas Saturn takes of life in a matter) and is peregrine, although in an approaching sextile, so he means well by this trip but in a way the trip is not really benefiting the querent or the husband really because the querent is somewhat rejectful of it, and the husband may even be slightly selfish to force this upon her at this time (applying to Saturn from Saturn's detriment while husband is in his own house). Moon being "charged" with a Jupiter trine before aspecting Saturn should help combat the difficulty of a Saturn influence and might also show the husband is fun-loving and looking for adventure (the querent is opposite Jupiter, so she's not on the same page). I guess Moon in the 7th can suggest travel over water too and a lot of change involved during travel, but a fixed sign shoud temper this a bit. And obviously Mercury retro will suggest complications as well. Mercury retro usually shows delays and malfunctions while on route, so I would imagine there were issues in getting to and/or from the destination. The 9th ruler in a cardinal sign shows a lot of change and instability in travel also, and I find it likely the trip will not last very long (Mars influencing will cut things short also).

Saturn disposited by Venus with Venus in the 9th and well dignified seems like a trip to foreign land, so it is unlikely to be in England. Venus by nature seems romantic and beautiful, full of culture. Venus with Mars in general to me also suggests a romantic trip because these two are naturally physically attracted to one another. The Moon is very close to the ASC ruler as well as the 9th ruler in the chart, so I doubt it is on the other side of the world or anything (they are more than 30 degrees apart so it's not anywhere near your homeland but the distance is still not so great). The Moon with Leo and Venus in Libra seems like it might be a place near the forest and water (probably not the ocean, but something like a lake) and possibly near castles or other large, beautiful buildings. Libra would more likely show mountains or being in upper rooms (in tall buildings) and is southern and the 9th ruler is also south in direction, so the country is likely south of England. Venus is cold and moist normally (somewhat temperate), although this is a day chart and she is with Mars, so it is somewhere that is naturally not very warm and dry but more likely normally temperate, clear weather, if not breezy and cool. Mars influencing and this being a day chart could affect the weather and make it more hot or have thunder/lightening, mists or fog, etc.

Quote:
Mars in its detriment in the 9th is there to spoil the fun. Venus now disposes of Mars but it is about to leave Libra and go into its own detriment under this nasty Mars' rulership. Saturn doesn't like Mars at all.


I wonder if Spica helps temper Mars' malevolency. Maybe she ran across royalty, a famous person (or couple) or some great ruler on her trip.
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Tanit



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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might have the wrong idea about the length of the trip. Lilly says on page 140 of Christian Astrology, Book II:

Quote:
In this Quere, I first considered the Sun Lord of the Ascendant, who being no ways unfortunated, or in any evill aspect with any Planet, which might impeach or impedite him, but on the contrary excellently fortified, I judged, he had the wide world to ramble in, (for a Planet strong, and in no aspect with others shewes a man at liberty to doe what he will;) and that for many yeers he might (quoad capax) live in a prosperous condition (according to the preceding limitation) and traverse much ground, or see many Countries; because Aries, the Signe wherein the Sun is in, is moveable, placed on the cusp of the 9th, signifying long journeys, which prenoted many turnings and shiftings, variety of action in sundry parts.


The ASC ruler here is Saturn in Libra, a moveable sign, and dignified (although this would not be quite the same - there would be some inhibition). So is this a longer journey or a shorter one? My guess is it is cut short because of Mars' influence in the 9th, but I could be wrong.

Also page 157 starts with journeys overseas and the ASC ruler as Saturn in the 8th in part describing the condition of the journey here is a bit troubling. Mars is pretty much mitigated by Venus (she casts her rays onto him and is dignified, plus he's with Spica), so pirates and the like seem unlikely to me, but Saturn is not mitigated here. Saturn can suggest theft or more likely difficult weather in my opinion (winds, etc.), but bloodshed and such is not something that comes to my mind (again, I could be wrong).

Quote:
Besides, if the Lord of the 8th shall infortunate the Lord of the Ascendant, especially if the Lord of the Ascendant be in the 8th, there will come hurt to the Ship according to the nature of the Planet afflicting: as if the same Planet that is Lord of the 8th house doe impedite the Lord of the house of the Moon, the Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon, it imports the death of the Master or Governour of the Ship, and of his Mate and principall Officers of the Ship.


Lord of the ASC in the 8th is under the influence of Venus dignified though, so I am not so sure this is very dangerous, since Venus' nature is not meant to cause great harm or pain. I'd much prefer the benefics ruling over matters in general. It's more likely to bring pleasure here. I think the trip looks like fun moments with Venus influencing, coupled with trouble in travels (delays between routes, miscommunications about paperwork, difficult weather). Since the husband is likely financing the trip, I'd also not be surprised to see 8th house influences. Sun in the 8th might show a spouse who is bad with money (dispersion of substance). Mercury is a co-sig for money also, since Lilly regards it as a ruler of money and it is combust and retro in the husband's 2nd house. He might have literally lost money or paperwork while on the trip.
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handn



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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not funny, and yet somehow is funny, to think about how the most ponderous planet has not only had a trip organised for it, but a surprise trip Smile

Saturn's not really a planet for surprises, is it? At least it's moving relatively quickly in this chart otherwise there'd be such awful, serious trouble with getting going Smile

I'm feeling sympathy for all the parties here.... Rhona, husband, Saturn, Moon, everyone and everything lol
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Virgo24



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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit wrote:
I haven't had a lot of practice with travel questions, so I may not have much to add.

so as the querent it seems like maybe she was a bit of a party pooper for her husband, who is represented as Moon in Leo sextile Saturn.

the husband may even be slightly selfish to force this upon her at this time (applying to Saturn from Saturn's detriment while husband is in his own house).


On the contrary Tanit - although you may not feel experienced with travel questions. I have always found your responses to be insightful - and this response is no different.

There are 2 comments that I would like to make that will not give anything away about the outcome.

1)I did feel like a "party pooper" I could not drum up any enthusiasm for it - which made me feel guilty (Natally I am also ruled by Saturn)

2)There was a degree of selfishness by my husband, not malicious in any way. He had convinced himself I had told him that I wanted a holiday, whereas in actual fact I hadn't. He then admitted that he wanted the trip and the surprise was that he was the one that arranged it. Confused

So you were spot on
R
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hervaro



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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please say your husband had chosen one of the following as destinaton of the trip:

Countries: Japan, Canada, Indo-China, South Pacific Islands, Burma, Argentina, Upper Egypt, Tibet
Cities: Lisbon, Vienna, Frankfurt, Leeds, Nottingham, Johannesburg, Antwerp, Fribourg

got these from this site: http://www.auxmaillesgodefroy.com/libra, and it must be quality 'cos Antwerp IS included!

Very Happy
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Daz

Judging a horary just using Sabian symbols is probably not going to be very instructive on the details. If you want to only comment on that point, that's fair enough, but don't forget that suggestions on interpretation are supposed to explain the related astrological reasoning.


Hi Hervaro

Rhona was asked not to confirm or deny anything which was unknown to her at the time of the question. She can tell you how she felt at the time, etc; but we want to keep this fully open for new submisions, without giving any of the outcome details away (until it's revealed in full).

As a suggestion - how about identifying the theme of the environment, using the symbolism in the chart. That might then lead you towards identifying where she went through a combination of elemental symbolism and traditional rulerships, etc.

Thanks for participating
Deb
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Tanit



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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury retrograde seems very fitting for such a topic! Very Happy I am sure Deb was well aware of the transit before posting, and this is meant as a tribute. What better time to talk about a Mercury retrograde travel chart than when Mercury is retrograde?

It only means we must work harder at deciphering the clues. Thumbs up No need to fear, people.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, to be clear, there is no point in saying what you think happened unless relating that to the astrology of the chart - sorry if my comment was capable of being misunderstood. I'm going to remove posts that don't include any astrological reasoning but feel free to repost with your astrological commentary included.
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