16
Hello,
If we can't identify the differences, how do we know they exist?
The astronomical configurations have already been identified. The astrological interpretations have been suggested by the authors and editors of the sources cited. The question is not about their existence. The question is about the efficacy of the suggestions given by the authors and editors.

17
Thanks again, astrojin for bringing up these concepts. I have been eager to learn more - I think I need to just get Benjamin Dyke's book? I do understand what you're saying, but I think the subtle differences will be hard to notice without more study... I actually could use these subtleties in reading horaries, though! I am greatly interested in all of this.
BTW do you have many short term relationships?
Venus in detriment was the main thing I wondered with the "pushing" concept that was mentioned by others earlier because some astrologers seemed to believe that Mars could help somehow (with her condition), but I was rather skeptical based on my own experience. I have only had one relationship and it was several yrs. I am practically a saint! I have never been the dating type, actually - I have only ever dated someone I was already in love with. It is in my 10th, though, so it influences my career somehow - not really sure how other than romance getting mixed up in the work place (Mars also rules my 5th). I have been in love with two people in my life, and both were coworkers. One I actually dated. I have had many jobs, though and jobs are very short in duration - Mars' fiery nature cuts things short (it's also a day chart with Mars oriental, and he's my lord of geniture). I have always been very well respected in my career and I work in government (but I have a Pisces MC with Jupiter in Leo - I think this is more so Jupiter). I am also a self-starter and tend to make people want to better themselves (I guess I motivate people around me in general).

The theory by one astrologer was that Mars forces Venus to face romance, hence falling in love with coworkers. I would normally not fall in love with anyone, unless being around them 8 hrs a day at work, perhaps. As I said, I am not very good at romance and I don't normally think of it much or seek it out. But anyway - I am just trying to be a case study here!

18
Hello,

To Tanit:

Could you supply me the details of your chart? I also have Venus in Aries but with trine aspect to Mars (not conjunction like yours) and my Venus is in the fifth! (Mars in the first). Do I have many relationships? I had none (I am a 42 year old virgin!).

Maybe I could have a look at your chart and delienate that part? It is interesting to see charts of people who have extreme life (if you know what I mean) e.g. old virgin like me or someone who has 120 relationships at the age 18, etc. These "extreme" charts are good for case studies.

Abu Ma'shar probably meant that these concepts be used in horary but then by his time we could see a lot of crossover between horary and natal concepts and techniques.

19
Concerning the concept of pushing: I don't understand how it's relevant to the reception issue. Pushing is the law of gravity applied to astrology and interpreted in astrologically meaningful terms, is it not? Lilly mentions this principle several times in CA (the slower planet, the more ponderous planet etc.)

Reception is about two planets being in each other's house and how this affects each other and brings the affairs of each planet and the houses they rule, together.

20
The Alchemist wrote:Pushing is the law of gravity applied to astrology and interpreted in astrologically meaningful terms, is it not?
This seems improbable to me. Newton?s theories on gravitation in astronomy weren?t known until end 17th century and imply different planetary motions than the ?pushing? described here. Most classical and medieval people wouldn't even accept that the planets are physical objects made of gases, liquid, and or rock, which is required for any notion of gravitation.

21
Pushing is the law of gravity applied to astrology and interpreted in astrologically meaningful terms, is it not?
No, it is not. In fact, not even remotely related to the subject, and I am a little confused where you are taking this from. There are lot of quotes in this thread which clearly are not gravity related, and quotes important authors relevant to the matter. Please, refer to the post of astrojin in special.

Now, people who don?t care/don?t trust/ don?t believe in reception/have other definition already had their chance to say their minds, so I would suggest that the discussion can be returned to its original thread, that was way more interesting. People who want to discuss other related topics can always open other threads.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

22
Hello,

Yuzuru is right in saying that the concept of "pushing" mentioned by the cited authors has nothing to do with gravity. In my earlier post, I did not use that term (and btw, gravity only pulls, it does not push!). When a planet pushes another planet (pushes nature, power/strength/virtue or counsel/management), it is pushing something to the other planet like a man who "pushes" his agenda to another.

I really do not wish this thread to be like other threads which discusses the different versions of reception and their delineations (we have done this before in earlier posts). It is just that when Clelia discusses the concept of mutual generosity (Ibn Ezra's version), I wanted to draw the attention of her and other members on the difference of reception and pushing as outlined by Abu Ma'shar (whose texts have been referred to by many astrologers after him). I have long suspected this (and have used in chart readings) when I first got my hand on Brill's translation of the Abbreviation. When I got Ben Dykes translation of the Abbreviation, he also translated excerpts from the Greater Introduction which confirms my suspicion.

So, I just wanted to say that when two planets are in mutual generosity (Ibn Ezra's version), there is no pushing (as there is no aspect) and there is no reception unless the two planets are in the signs that share the same domicile (like engirding), in the signs of equal day (antiscion) or in the signs of equal rising (contrascion) - using Abu Ma'shar's concept of what he calls weaker version of reception. Abu Ma'shar has different definitions for generosity (which I did not mention in my posts).

I missed all your posts on this subjetc!!!!

23
Well, I want to kill myself: I simply miss all your important posts! I don?t know what is happening with my mail.

Now I read them all ( well, more or less) and I agree specially with Tom.

I don?t know if I got him in the right way but I was not talking about pushing nature and all the conditions the Medieval authors used and Astrogin brought to the discussion. Neither I was thinking in " pushing nature"

The house?s dispositor has a direct final responsibility for the affairs of the house it rules.
So, if the house it rules is connected to it by mutual rulership it happens a situation in the chart which is closed and gives no escape, at least to the point when there is no other planet configured to the couple.

I think that this couple receives each other even without aspect because the bound between them is deep i.e. the rulership of one over the over.

Iit can bring a kind of stagnation, since the 2 signs are trapped in a box, closed in a box.( especially if none of them have other ruler)

The ?x ?of the question is if if it happens in houses that are profitable or not. For example if the ruler of the 4th and 5ht receved each other never mind if they do not see each ohter, properties, etc, and children, fun and money of propertes are linked
I?m thrilled with this issue is and I?m frustratefpr not having follow the discussions.

All appears to do with the houses: planets in good house receiving each other is good, in bad house is bad. The good celestial condition of a planet in a bad house can work badly, also. Now the eggs!!! I?m ready!LOL,

Astrogin thanks for quoting the authors: I want to discuss later something about your quotes. And sorry Olivia for not having answer your post.
I?ll read all of them with attention and see if I have something more to point out. I was needing so badly to discuss this matter! :-cry


best regards

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

24
Olivia:
But I still don't see half the mess without aspect as I do with aspect. It could be that I haven't paid enough attention to it, but...
Yes, Olivia: when the planet is in aspect it is much stronger for best or worse.

I felt very unconfortable with my question, because I?m coming to see that must of traditional statements must be revisited.

Another example is about malefics being less dangerrous in 12th adn 6th.
I?ll tell you: Saturn in the 12th is horrible.
Zoller said once that Saturn in the 12th iis good for him:this sounds weird, since the human perspective is all that counts!
But if we think that planets in traditional astrology are " beings" we can understand that being ggod to Saturn is bad to the native. It?s funny;-)


But, again, it is a matter tho think a LOT about!

best

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

25
Hi Astrojin:
It is my believe that the application and delineation of reception, mutual reception and mutual generosity can only be discerned by looking at all of the following concepts; pushing, returning and reception in all of its variants. I?ll be using MashaAllah?s Book On Reception (Works of Sahl & MashaAllah, trans. Ben Dykes, Cazimi Press, 2008), Abu Mashar?s Abbreviation and Greater Introduction (Introductions to Traditional Astrology, Abu Ma?shar and Al-Qabisi, trans. Ben Dykes, Cazimi Press, 2010) and Avraham Ibn Ezra?s Beginning of Wisdom (trans. Meira Epstein, Arhat, 1998).

I love this books!
As I wrote before, I was using the word reception to the fact that a planet receives the other, so, in the Aristotelian way, and Medieval astrology, the reveived planet gives the matter and the planet which receives it gives the motive.
You did a good thing reporting us to the doctrine, though.

In your example (Clelia) you have Mars in Sagittarius and Jupiter in Scorpio. Scorpio and Sagittarius do not aspect ach other (whole sign) and there is no connection via equal daylight, equal ascension or like engirding. Hence, there is no pushing and reception (neither strong nor weak reception). However, the example fits the definition given by Avraham Ibn Ezra i.e. Generosity. I would imagine that Jupiter is in Mars? house and Mars is in Jupiter?s house but they cannot connect with each other (not by seeing, not by hearing, no by telephone, not by email, etc.). Hence, they will be nice to each other not because they want to be nice to each other but because each has a silent understanding of not wrecking each others? houses![/quote
They do not need to talk to each other because it is enought to be the ruler of the domicile of each other to let thing happen. And I?d say that if one of them is doing something bad to the other, it is specially bad, since the second one do not see the first, so it is not able to be prepared to it.
In the same way I don?t thing that a planet is nice determining the affairs of the domicile it rules. It can be nice or not, it depends of his celestial quality and the house it rules.

.
Examples with questions:
1. Moon (8Sco) applying to Mars (10Cap). Moon pushes nature to Mars. Mars receives Moon. It seems that Mars receiving Moon is OK but would Moon push her nature when she is in her depression
?

This is another question: has the simple aspect effectiveness enought if it happens between planets that have nothing to do with each othe? The Moon do not rules Mars house, but Mars rules the Moon so she will act accodingly to Mars, and not the other way around.
But I think the aspect gives testimony and accodingly to Ptolemy, aspect is a dignity.
2. Moon (8Can) applying to Mars (10Sco). Moon pushes power, strength or virtue to Mars but Moon is pushing to her depressed sign. What does this mean to the power pushed by Moon
3Would she want to do the pushing? Mars ?rejects? Moon because she is in his enemy?s house (the reverse of reception). What would this ?rejection? do to the power pushed by Moon? Btw, both are proud where they are as both are in their domiciles. However, both are of the same sect and the aspect is the best aspect friendship (trine).[/quote
]

All you said are important things to think about!

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

26
Tom wrote:
I was actually thinking the same thing. For example, you don't want reception between your 1 and 8 rulers if you can help it.
Why not if it abates all malice?


Are you sure, Tom? have you seem that happening in your experience?

I wonder if much of the "debate" on reception is even necessary. To divide it up into reception, disposition, generosity, etc is hair splitting in the extreme. One planet influences the other. If there is an aspect, it influences it even more. If it is mutual they influence each other. That's it.


I agree:-)

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

27
Tom:
How do we quantify something like that?
We don't. These concepts are different in terms of qualification and not quantification.
Alchemist:
I totally agree with you. After this, it is only an issue of interpreting the combined influences and their effect on the affairs of the native.
Astrojin, this is very true: we don?t have a simple configuration being responsible for, for example, suicide, wealthy or lengh of life. We read in ancient authors, since Dorotheus, Ptolemy and Valens, a web of conditions as being necessary to point out in a direction or another when studying a native?s chart.

Clelia

Cl?lia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com