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Querent combust Sun - Really how powerful?
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Juniper



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Querent combust Sun - Really how powerful? Reply with quote

Hello All,

I have not had the opportunity to view the outcome of a chart/situation where the the sun was combust the querent, with the rest of the chart being very good.

Any thoughts on just how powerful the influence of a Sun-Querent conjunction is? In your opinion, would this aspect alone be enough to give a negative answer?
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The alchemist



Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. This is obviously a case of mixed testimonies. If the rest of the chart is very good with indications of perfection, then I don't see how the combustion could deny it. One possible meaning of the L1 combust is weakness or confusion. The querent is obviously in a bad place right now and this shows in the chart. It depends on the chart.
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Juniper



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alchemist, thank you for your reply.

I found that John Frawley's comment on what Lily said on this topic correlates with what you said:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/special-horary/combust.php

Some immediate feedback on the situation: the querent, though hesitant, wanted to go ahead with the endeavor, but the other major player was unable to proceed, so nothing came of it.

Thanks again.
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The alchemist



Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Lilly says about this: "The significator of the Querent Combust, shews him or her in great fear, and over powered by some great person."

Overpowered by some great person, as a planet is overshadowed by the Sun, who outshines them all. In the example chart discussed by Frawley the indications of perfection are rather weak (sextile with no reception and the Moon combust). The question then becomes, if the Moon were not combust would the outcome have been different? Maybe, but still a sextile without reception remains a little weak, so I wouldn't expect too much. It's funny because I've seen this configuration before in relationship charts (sextiles between the main significators without reception) and nothing came of the matter. In such cases, the querent will have to make quite an effort in order for things to work out.

And also, when the outcome is positive there are usually several positive indications going on in the chart at the same time.

I believe you will find this table very helpful: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html
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Juniper



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alchemist,

I see what you mean about how the chart was not so strong even without the moon being combust.

Thank you for referring me to the table.
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a quote from Deb from a forum post about combustion. Sorry I don't have the link to the source thread.

Quote:
Astrologers are warned about getting involved in the judgement of situtions where the ascendant-ruler is combust because it can describe the querent as unable to be 'regulated'.


I can vouch for this. Having been burned by ignoring this advice, I tend to follow it pretty religiously now.

Tara
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The alchemist



Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tara wrote:
Quote:
Astrologers are warned about getting involved in the judgement of situtions where the ascendant-ruler is combust because it can describe the querent as unable to be 'regulated'.

This is based on Lilly's considerations before judgement, which were probably based on Bonatti's. Yet, is that enough to deny perfection? I don't believe that any of the considerations before judgement are enough to invalidate the chart or deny perfection. In the example chart discussed, if the main significators were applying by trine with reception and L1 was combust would that deny perfection?

In p. 300 of CA Lilly says:

"The Lord of the ASC out of his essential dignities, cadent etc shows the querent is out of all hope in his business"

"Beware in all Judgments, when the Significator of the question is either Combust, or in Opposition to the Sun, he will then signifie nothing of the matter, no good, nor be able to bring anything to perfection. "

These have to be taken with a grain of salt, because the rest of the chart cannot be ignored.
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Juniper



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tara said:

I can vouch for this. Having been burned by ignoring this advice, I tend to follow it pretty religiously now.

Hi, Tara -

I was wondering if you have been burned by proceeding with your significator being combust : when the rest of the chart looked very good OR with an otherwise so-so or bad chart.

Also, have you experienced the above situation more than once?

Thanks.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a slightly recent post in the forum on "Return of light" where we gave a few examples of charts with the querent combust. One astrologer had a chart where the outcome was positive, but on a second attempt. That post and others site a lot of quotes on combustion. We have quite a few threads on combustion in general, which you may relate to your situation.

It is hard to generalize and we don't know the situation or what you are regarding as positive testimony. If this is Mercury combust, obviously this might relate more so to the things of Mercury, such as misinformation, based on Mercury's natural symbolism.

I especially cannot ignore the slower planets combust because this is more rare than say Moon, Mercury or Venus, who are often combust. The Sun is more likely to be the one applying as well (unless you have retro movement), which in horary is more likely descriptive of a situation coming to you.

Still, since the Moon is so important in horary, the most important body in a horary by astrologers such as Lilly, when it is combust, or in a New Moon, this might represent a lot of difficulty, a conclusion, an ending, etc. As Bonatti and others clearly state, the Sun is malefic when it is in conjunction with a planet (unless you regard cazimi as protection), and you want the Moon, above all other bodies, to be at her best.

One of my romance threads talks about Venus' relationship with the Sun, where Deb gives a good interpretation of the cycle and the "dance" between them (or chase, if you will). Venus and Sun seem to be much more intimate in their relationship than someone like Saturn, who Sun also regards as a natural enemy, and therefore might be more hostile to it, especially without reception? For me, I just tend to relate the planet in question to the matter first and foremost because none of the planets are equivalent to one another, and therefore differ in their influences and meaning.

Another thing you might consider is whether or not this is a separating or applying influence, since combustion applying will be more difficult than separating. This is because the planet has not yet gone through the worst of it when the aspect is applying (it is of the future, or possibly the now if the orb is already there).

An old "Cazimi" post had a good response by Deb on combustion in general:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5089
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Juniper



Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Posts: 33

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit,

Thank you for such a rich and helpful reply.

The link you provided was also chock-full of combust info.

I wonder if the significance of mercury, venus and the moon being combust is any less, in terms of impact delivered, than the slower planets -- despite the former happening more frequently. Perhaps we are "used" to dealing with those more common "consequences".

Several times I have tried doing searches and have been unsuccessful -- I get so many search results, with very little addressing that which I seek!

I have tried using quotation marks -- but that has not really helped. This may be a vague question, but are there any hints that may help?

Maybe this is common knowledge on forums in general, but I cannot figure out what any of this actually means:

"You can use AND to define ("define"?) words which must be in the results, OR to define words which may be in the result and NOT to define words which should not be in the result. Use * as a wildcard (?)for partial matches"(?)

Tanit, I read that you are not feeling well, so please don't bother with any of this unless/until you are up to it. Feel well soon and thank you, again.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juniper and Forum,

All of the above is very insightful, and as usual Lilly knows his horary art on this.

In my post 'Is this a 7th House horary question?', there is a Lord of the 1st(the querant) combust.

I personally know the querant is in trouble with authoritys as the cjt takes place in the 10th of the horary and prior communication validates this. It may be a judge if the querant pursues the negative course.

The reason I'm bringing this past horary up as an example is our adept and well read Olivia understands that 'when the querant's lord is combust, the querant will generally Not listen to the astrologer'. It would be very informative to hear of the source or author as I'm sure Olivia is accurate on this.

I have not given a finality of the matter because the querant is Not listening and does Not like the advice of the horary. And as the querant is a Aries Sun, they have opted to be very imature about recieving the advice.

Does this sound like the reasoning and advice Lilly gives on the Combust lord of the querant as a warning to the astrologer?

I think many of us will review our horary files of Combust lords of the querant and may be astonished with the findings.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, everyone!

I thought I would add only a few more words!
When it comes to signs of severe debilitiation of planets, extreme negative influences and warnings for both the Querent and the Astrologer, we obviously have a very generous list of sound instructions for considerations before judgement and suggestions written by both traditional and contemporary authors. Still, and although all of the instructions are usually very straightforward and understandable, we always have to take the whole chart into consideration and discover as to why thee negative signs might mean in the situations that we are currently dealing with. There are no two identical situations hence there are no two identical answers (although, the charts can, technically at least, be identical).

Luckily, a Horary chart is a very generous source of informations and, although the quantity of testimonies can sometimes cause confusion, it is generally only depicting the complexity of the situation itself. And in every situation, the central figure (the Querent in our case) and his actions are tightly connected to the actions, events and all other aspects of the situation however complex or simple it may be.
That being said, it is very unlikely that a chart that gives the Querent a very weak or damaged planet for their ruler will present the rest of the situation as bright and extremely promising. Everything is intertwined and a Querent represented by a combust planet is hardly a good organizer of the events- he or she either doesn't see the things clearly or is being damaged and weakened by some negative influence already. In such a situation it is expected that many difficulties have already occurred. After all- there is a reason why the Querent is seeing an Astrologer.

I must say that I haven't seen many positive charts with combust rulers but, obviously, it is impossible to give an answer in a nutshell.

Still, generally speaking, we might divide situations with combust rulers into a few categories. If the Querent's ruler is combust and the rest of the chart appears to be just as negative, then we probably are talking not only about a negative solution to the matter but also about a very stressful situation: the Querent might not have been capable of bringing the situation to a positive outcome, or may have already been severely damaged by it and so on.
Then, we might imagine a chart full of mixed testimonies and, as confusing as such charts usually are, we have to assume that the situation itself is confusing and full of contradictory influences and elements. A damaged L1 doesn't look promising in such situations, of course, since, the more complex situation, the more wit and opportunities he or she will need and operating from the midst of the sun heat is hardly ever easy.
Finally, we might have a chart in which the ruler of the Querent is severely burnt whilst the rest of the situation looks promising but, even in such a case, it is extremely important to recognise the influence of the Sun because, in reality, we might be talking about a a damaging influence causing blindness and preventing the Querent to see the right way to achieve the positive outcome; without a good guidance from the Astrologer, he or she is most likely to stay trapped in the same place in the future.
The example mentioned in one of the previous posts about the goal being achieved only after a second attempt might be a good example of this- a promising situation but only after the obstacle has been removed (whatever the obstacle is). Here I might also want to add that, about a year ago, I have actually seen a chart with some rather good promises apart from the fact that the Querent's ruler was combust but the truth is, it was indicative of the fact that the Querent had already spent too much time being trapped in his own illusions and that it was time for him to forget all about it and to move on. As hard as it seemed to him at the moment to abandon his old hopes, his life literally started blooming soon after he had focused onto a new goal and didn't really suffer much. So, it was a positive promise but it didn't bring about the thing that he was looking for when he visited the Astrologer!

Like I said, there are no two identical situations but it is worth keeping in mind that a combust planet is a severely damaged planet and that the effects of this will surely be recognisable in the rest the chart as well.

Cheers,

aglaya!
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems so mysterious sometimes. Clinton - Lilly, and others before him, warned that the querent's planet combust means the querent is not easily regulated. I take that in part to mean that they simply do not listen to the astrologer. That's personal experience, though I think I hold the world record on clients with ill-dignified Saturn-Mars oppositions, most of them across the ascendant-descendant line, which could also cause the querent not to listen!

There was one chart I saw where cazimi really came through. It was a gal applying to graduate schools, constantly being turned down. She then decided to apply for a vocational teaching course and aside from the quesited's sig being cazimi, the chart was a horror. I didn't think the quesited's sig cazimi (in 8 in detriment and retrograde, as well) would be enough to pull it off. But it did. She not only got accepted, but thoroughly enjoyed the course and got honours in it.

That was the only even remotely positive point in the chart. I'm still puzzling over the thing, to be honest.
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The alchemist



Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
There was one chart I saw where cazimi really came through. It was a gal applying to graduate schools, constantly being turned down. She then decided to apply for a vocational teaching course and aside from the quesited's sig being cazimi, the chart was a horror. I didn't think the quesited's sig cazimi (in 8 in detriment and retrograde, as well) would be enough to pull it off. But it did. She not only got accepted, but thoroughly enjoyed the course and got honours in it.

That was the only even remotely positive point in the chart. I'm still puzzling over the thing, to be honest.


In my experience, cazimi is a window of blessing, a rare occurence and a very positive sign whenever occured.
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I answered a horary which had L1 combust for a long time client . She didn't like my answer, to the extent that she never consulted me again after having been a regular client and a student for a number of years. I can't remember specifics but there was at least one other time I attempted to answer a L1 Combust chart and that didn't turn out well either, so I am now very leery of accepting horaries with L1 Combust.

Re The Alchemist's remark about cazimi being a "window of blessing" (which I like very much), I recently gave a public lecture on the planets with Mercury cazimi and it was like indeed like a "window of blessing"; the lecture took off as if it had wings.
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