Gems, Amulets and Astrological Talismans

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I would be interested in hearing anyones experiences of using gems or making astrological talismans as remedial tools to offset difficult transits etc. These seem to be quite ancient practices in astrology. For example, the 6th century Indian astrologer Varahmihira discusses the use of gems in his 6th century text of astrology, astronomy and folk lore entitled the Brihat Samhita. Astrological Talisman making is discussed in many medieval astrological texts too.

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/ast ... isman.html

So have any of you actually used gems with astrological associations or made an astrological talisman? Were they effective? In what ways if so? Do you have any advice to offer others?

I appreciate some people have a philosophical objection to such practices. There can be various reasons for that. For example, someone espousing a modern 'choice centred' astrology may regard such practices as too fatalistic. Equally, the traditional astrologer John Frawley has suggested that such 'astrological magic' conflicts with his Roman Catholic faith. I am sure he is not the first astrologer to have such reservations.

We did have a thread on the Traditional Forum seeking to discuss such remedial measures but we got a little bogged down in the free will vs fatalism debate which seemed beyond the scope of the traditional forum. I am not firmly convinced either way here by the way. I just thought it would be interesting to share our experiences and reincarnate this interesting topic.

I sincerely, hope members can be a bit more tolerant of differing points of view in this thread!

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5951

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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I think my best talisman story is on the forum somewhere, so I won't repeat it. Unless it's not.

In my experience, yes, they work, but you do need to co-ordinate it with your birth-time as well as transits (should go without saying).

I don't have the paper anymore, but it may be online - Liz Hazel ran a sort of cyber-circle of 40 astro-magicians each doing a talisman ritual at the same time, roughly (we both were electing times for people since it was worldwide and we wanted a particular moment of the moon's rise to start it), and she wrote it up afterwards - the results were impressive.

If I find the paper again, I'll certainly be happy to post it. I'm certain that I saved copies of the ritual and everything relevant to it, including responses from the participants, but I think they got stuck in a box somewhere during a house move - I haven't come across them again yet.

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I think my best talisman story is on the forum somewhere, so I won't repeat it.
Was this it?
Sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't?

My own talismans have been a DIY affair, and useful. Sadly, I lost one that I made some years ago that did have a pronounced effect, and there won't be a comparable planetary alignment for another 45 years - so I hope I find the thing again.
This old thread has some interesting discussion around the subject of planetary talismans.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... highlight=

What about gems? It seems a lot less complicated than planetary talismans. They seem to be used extensively in Indian astrology as a remedial measure. Does the lack of a personal connection make them weaker in influence than a Talisman though? (assuming they have any!). As noted in the earlier thread the suggestion seems to be by contributors that such remedies cannot mitigate or change factors which are integral to the nativity. For example, a debilitated planet. So should we be looking to create talismans/ use gems that support the strong points in our chart?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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there could be a problem mixing and matching.
A planet may not be debilitated sidereally but tropically and then do quieten down a malevolent planet or strengthen it because it rules a good house in your chart.

The rituals are very complicated and the phonetics should be correct. It's best use is to keep yourself occupied or let others get thinking if they know where to look for it :-)
and that keeps your non friends -occupied.

PD

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Not a particular astrological experience but when I was 16 I made a copper Venus talisman for the reasons that one might expect of persons that age. Unfortunately, not much effect.

When picking plants however, I've noticed a sense of 'protection' when carrying the linnen bag around my neck after the picking. So I'd go for the freshly picked materials rather than metals and stones, to replace them from time to time.

Perhaps a personal astrological input would be the Moon phases related to the kind of effect you want. Waxing/full Moon conjunct natal Venus for love/beauty and waning Moon to diminishing negative effects. But these are my own assumptions, never seriously experimented with it. Perhaps the link with the natal chart isn't necessary.

When the 'natural' way is chosen, helping nature a bit, I think there probably aren't really conflicts with religious beliefs.

Re: Gems, Amulets and Astrological Talismans

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Mark wrote:Equally, the traditional astrologer John Frawley has suggested that such 'astrological magic' conflicts with his Roman Catholic faith. I am sure he is not the first astrologer to have such reservations.
Still Catholic Church has always used stones and colours for different moment of the year. For example Cardinals wear a ring with a sapphire.

Without forgetting how it is build the city of God:

The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst (Rev. 21:19, 20).

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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Olivia wrote: In my experience, yes, they work, but you do need to co-ordinate it with your birth-time as well as transits (should go without saying).
In Arabic and European astrological magic, talismans are timed by elections. One's birth chart isn't needed except that you should know which planets are afflicted. It's ill-advised to make talismans of afflicted planets, though there are also fixed star talismans, so there is a workaround. Some elections might employ the rising degree of the birth chart, but these aren't strictly necessary. Transits are never used, or at least I can't think of any examples in the core sources.

Experiences: I've made several talismans, planetary, fixed stars, and horary-based (i.e. topic based). By far the most dramatic result was my first one, which was for Jupiter. I had been out of a job for months, and after doing the talisman, I had three job offers within two days.

The rest, and this seems to be more average, are a bit more subtle. They won't give the opposite effect of what is promised in a natal chart - (i.e. someone with afflicted indications for money won't win the lottery with a wealth talisman), but they certainly can lessen afflicted items in the natal chart. In other words they won't change your fate, but they can soften it a bit.

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Hi, Mark

Although astrological magic and talismans are an important part of magical lore, I think it should be mentioned that:

1- it is not the base of EVERY tradition. You will see plenty of cultures that do not use planetary symbolism at all.

2 - astrological timing is not used in most traditions. Although I have heard some lore about eclipses and Tibetan magic, it is a little different than one would think at first. But there are so many systems, like voodoo, that will never see the stars looking for an election.

3 - most magicians seem to think that relying to much on astrological timing it is unnecessary at best (you often need thing when you need them) and a crutch at worst.

I have made several of the talismans that Chris Warnock published in his site. I am not impressed by the results. It may be me, of course, but I think there are better ways to magic. I am more impressed by the use of sublunar spirits.

Talking about sublunar (as the spirits of the mansions of the moon are sublunar), I think the only talisman that gave me results were the talisman of the 3rd lunar mansion. But you have to pray at the right time each month, and I have forgotten to do that for years straight. But when I did, I remember that I really got some clients out of the blue for a day or two.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

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Since this thread is on the general astrology board, I would like to offer some thoughts that veer into modern astrology, more by way of hoping to get some feedback from talisman-users so that I understand what I am missing than by way of announcing some kind of truth. I understand that talismans and gems have a long history in jyotish astrology, but I cannot speak to it from personal experience.

Also, there is a history of amulets of various kinds in different religions: the rosary of Roman Catholics or the mezuzah on Jewish homes would be examples. The rational approach to these artefacts would probably be that they are reminders of one's faith rather than articles imbued with particular power; although there are legends about religious objects having supernatural power.

1. It seems to me that an interest is talismans presupposes some kind of problem with the individual. Unemployed, broke, unrequited love, and so on. Would you find people asking about them whose job, money, and love life were going well?

2. People consulting horoscopes for themselves or seeking astro-advice seem to function on one of several levels, from deeply troubled to well-grounded and happy. Sometimes the deeply unhappy people seem to lack a faith in their ability to fix their problems--the problems that can be helped, that is. Suggesting that they have the power to be more self-motivated in their lives and develop a little backbone is simply not on.

For such individuals I think little rituals or objects can be helpful, as a small baby-step that they can take to get a sense of having more control over their lives. For example, suggesting to a miserable woman with a stellium in Leo that she should wear more gold jewelry and do special things for herself like lighting candles at dinner (fire element) seems appropriate.

3. But there is a level at which an amulet seems like the leonine woman is being asked to externalize the source of personal power away from herself and to place it upon an external object (gold jewelry, candles). The anthropology term here is actually "fetishism," meaning atttributing inherent powers to an object. Fetishism is different than using plants or minerals for their medicinal value. If I pick a plant and use it in a herbal medicine to cure an illness, that is not fetishism. If I dry the plant and wear it on my person to ward off bad luck or evil spirits, that is fetishism. If I put the object to ritual use in order to focus my power of prayer or to identify with the qualities that I attribute to the object, it crosses the boundary into fetishism if I attribute power outside of myself--notably supernatural power--to the object.

So my questions really, are: are we talking about fetishism here? And if so, wouldn't it be better for people to develop their own beneficial personal qualities--as indicated by their horoscopes--to improve their situations? What happens if you lose the fetish? The individual seemingly hasn't done much to develop her sense that she can learn to solve some of her problems, because she's split off that ability from herself, and projected it onto an object.

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hi waybread,
waybread wrote:...The rational approach to these artefacts would probably be that they are reminders of one's faith rather than articles imbued with particular power;
No, that is a materialistic & unspiritual (atheistic isn't quite the right word) approach; it has less to do with reason than with (usually unexamined) presupposition. It's also the default position of the people who think anything we are talking about here is BS.
waybread wrote: 1. It seems to me that an interest is talismans presupposes some kind of problem with the individual. Unemployed, broke, unrequited love, and so on. Would you find people asking about them whose job, money, and love life were going well?
Depends on the person, honestly; most people wouldn't think about it when times are good, but there are those who realize a state of affairs doesn't last forever, and is dependant on the assistance of others, whether they are Homo sapiens or otherwise.
waybread wrote: 2. People consulting horoscopes for themselves or seeking astro-advice seem to function on one of several levels, from deeply troubled to well-grounded and happy. Sometimes the deeply unhappy people seem to lack a faith in their ability to fix their problems--the problems that can be helped, that is. Suggesting that they have the power to be more self-motivated in their lives and develop a little backbone is simply not on.

For such individuals I think little rituals or objects can be helpful, as a small baby-step that they can take to get a sense of having more control over their lives. For example, suggesting to a miserable woman with a stellium in Leo that she should wear more gold jewelry and do special things for herself like lighting candles at dinner (fire element) seems appropriate.
No harm in any of that. It also has the advantage of being a form of sympathetic magic, like homeopathy. But there's people who need the "man-step" ...
waybread wrote: 3. But there is a level at which an amulet seems like the leonine woman is being asked to externalize the source of personal power away from herself and to place it upon an external object (gold jewelry, candles).
waybread wrote: So my questions really, are: are we talking about fetishism here?
Nope, magic.
waybread wrote: And if so, wouldn't it be better for people to develop their own beneficial personal qualities--as indicated by their horoscopes--to improve their situations?
What if they can't? What beneficial horoscopic quality would help someone in an abusive relationship? The asteriod "Smith & Wesson"? Everyone here I'd assume would first try the simplest things, get them out of there, call the police, etc.: but what if those are not feasible? Do we just tell them "sorry honey, you're screwed"? Or do we try to help, if only in a fashion considered by many (& I don't think I'm off including you) "superstitious nonsense", as with astrology?
Gabe

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yuzuru wrote:... I am not impressed by the results. It may be me, of course, but I think there are better ways to magic. I am more impressed by the use of sublunar spirits.
I do agree, there's something missing about the Arabic astrological magic, but I'm not sure what, other than getting ahold of one's personal genius first?
Gabe

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Hi GR--Sorry I didn't make myself more clear, and thanks for your detailed feedback.

To take your last point first. I think astrology is great. It is my passion. But I am a sceptical person by nature, not just re: astrology. A certain amount of scepticism is healthy, because if ideas can stand up to critical scrutiny, then you know you've got something beyond wishful thinking. I don't support "my astrology: right or wrong" because if something seems wrong about astrology, I would like either to understand my error in thinking, drop the erroneous bits of astrology, or else fix up the erroneous bits if that is possible.

Also, I see myself as a spiritual person, but my spirituality does not depend upon amulets for its expression. I believe in God, the One who created the gems. However, to paraphrase Groucho Marx, I would have to be excommunicated from any religion that would have me as a member.

I think we agree that telling majorly unhappy people to simply get a little gumption is unhelpful. As in my example above of an unhappy woman with a lot of Leo in her chart who is unable to see herself as autonomous, suggesting that she wear more gold jewelry or light candles would seem helpful. If people cannot take giant steps, I do suggest that they take baby steps.

Horoscopic qualities that could be interpreted to help someone in a difficult relationship would, of course, depend on what is in the horoscope. Some examples that come to mind, however, have been Internet forum interactions with women from India who have their suns and possibly other planets in Aries, and who were either miserable in their marriages, or upset that at age 20-something they faced enormous pressure to pair up, pronto. (One that I recall was in an arranged marriage.) I see them as "women warriors" in a context of societal expectations that do not value Arian qualities in females. Just suggesting to these women how an Aries sun might express itself in the new modernizing India today seemed helpful-- at least they told me that it was. If they are educated enough to interact with good English on an internet forum, I believe they can see themselves as capable of establishing an authentic identity.

GR, can you tell me what you mean by "magic"?