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A complete translation of Vettius Valens by Mark Riley
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrStarman wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:
This translation of Valens seems to indicate the reverse for calculating the lot of fortune to what is expected:

Pg 26, section 3: The Lot of Fortune and its Houseruler

“Next in order, it will be necessary (for day nativities) to count accurately
the distance from the sun to the moon, then to measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the Ascendant, and to inspect the resulting place: which star is its ruler and which star or stars are at this point and all the square or trine asterisms of this place."

If I take my chart as example, it says to take the distance from the Sun (13 Leo) to the Moon (9 Gemini) and measure off in the opposite direction an equal distance from the ascendant so since we were going backwards against the order of the signs, now it says to go forward in the order of the signs and the ascendant is 1 Sco, so this gives 5 Cap, which is where I thought the lot of spirit was. Any thoughts on this?


http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/arabicparts/index.php

I use the software above. Quite different from Valens,and I get 26 Cancer for you,not Capricorn. I`m not getting it!!?? Shocked


That software doesn't seem to work right because it is forcing the use of the PM formula when I'm a day birth. The formula as stated on the site is what I expected, but when you read the translation prof Riley did exactly and take the arc from the Moon to the Sun and then take that same arc in the reverse direction, then you would end up at 5 cap for fortune. Schmidt's translation of the same paragraph from Valens says to take the arc "and an equal amount from the ascendant" which are very different things. Later on Schmidt had doubts because some of the lots such as the lot of eros already had spirit/fortune in the equation, so using algebraic notation, he proved that in some cases the reversal is done twice and in others the reversal is canceled which bothered him because of the asymmetry. After he proposed a solution to the translation, there was considerable debate about what was going on with the 7 hermetic lots and what exactly it means to "reverse". It's a long story...

It is good to have seen books 8 and 9 for the first time. I bring this up because one has to be careful about translation because there are often many ways to translate a single sentence, especially a Greek sentence.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed in another location of that translation that Valens, pg 38 (3rd paragraph) states the algorithm for finding the lot in the usual manner...
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DrStarman



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
I noticed in another location of that translation that Valens, pg 38 (3rd paragraph) states the algorithm for finding the lot in the usual manner...


He also seems to use Whole sign houses, with MC-IC often in 9th or 11th houses. He comments that MC not only rules career and status but foreign affairs when placed in 9th
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DrStarman



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="zoidsoft"][quote="DrStarman"]
zoidsoft wrote:
This translation of Valens seems to indicate the reverse for calculating the lot of fortune to what is expected:

Pg 26, section 3: The Lot of Fortune and its Houseruler

“.


How do they define nightbirth?
Is it when it is really dark, or beginning to darken, the exact moment of Sunset?
Those things aren`t very clear for someone born around 6pm
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DrStarman



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From page 81:

from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone’s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.

This is very similar to what Dutch Astrologer Wim Van Dam does, by considering Sun in H9 as if it were Sun in Sagitarius, and 0 of aries in say,11th house as meaning the rising sign is Aquarius

http://www.astrosoftware.com/WimMundane.htm
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrStarman wrote:
From page 81:

from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone’s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.

This is very similar to what Dutch Astrologer Wim Van Dam does, by considering Sun in H9 as if it were Sun in Sagitarius, and 0 of aries in say,11th house as meaning the rising sign is Aquarius

http://www.astrosoftware.com/WimMundane.htm


Valens is probably making a reference to the Thema Mundi here where Cancer rises. In the chart of the world, Sagittarius is the 6th house so is traditionally associated with slaves. Schmidt suggests that if one doesn't know what to do with some piece of the astrological puzzle, try to fit it into the chart of the Thema Mundi. He argues that this chart is the template for understanding Hellenistic astrology.

Valens understands all the cadent places to have to do with being away from home because the cadent sign is "turned away" from an angle.
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DrStarman



Joined: 16 Jan 2011
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
DrStarman wrote:
From page 81:

from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone’s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.

This is very similar to what Dutch Astrologer Wim Van Dam does, by considering Sun in H9 as if it were Sun in Sagitarius, and 0 of aries in say,11th house as meaning the rising sign is Aquarius

http://www.astrosoftware.com/WimMundane.htm


Valens is probably making a reference to the Thema Mundi here where Cancer rises. In the chart of the world, Sagittarius is the 6th house so is traditionally associated with slaves. Schmidt suggests that if one doesn't know what to do with some piece of the astrological puzzle, try to fit it into the chart of the Thema Mundi. He argues that this chart is the template for understanding Hellenistic astrology.

Valens understands all the cadent places to have to do with being away from home because the cadent sign is "turned away" from an angle.


Thanks Zoidsoft
So if my Sun is Gemini it will fall in house 12?
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrStarman wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:
DrStarman wrote:
From page 81:

from the Lot of Fortune, and if benefics are in aspect, there will be inheritances, gifts, or a cause of some
good. If the fatal Places transmit to Places which precede the angles or vice-versa, the native will hear of
someone’s death while abroad or as a result of travel. (The four Places which precede the angles serve as
Places of Foreigners and of Slaves.) Likewise in any nativity Gemini and Sagittarius have the same general
effect as the Place of Slaves because of their zodiacal position: when Cancer is in the Ascendant, the Place of
Slaves falls in these signs. So even when a native has the Place of Slaves in another sign, /172P/ but has
malefics in these <Gemini>, he will experience disturbances and injuries from slaves, even
penalties, death, and flight, especially if Saturn is in these Places. If benefics are in these Places, the native
will be thought well of <by> and will receive benefits from them, and he himself will be a benefactor
of slaves, or will indeed raise some, treating them as his children.

This is very similar to what Dutch Astrologer Wim Van Dam does, by considering Sun in H9 as if it were Sun in Sagitarius, and 0 of aries in say,11th house as meaning the rising sign is Aquarius

http://www.astrosoftware.com/WimMundane.htm


Valens is probably making a reference to the Thema Mundi here where Cancer rises. In the chart of the world, Sagittarius is the 6th house so is traditionally associated with slaves. Schmidt suggests that if one doesn't know what to do with some piece of the astrological puzzle, try to fit it into the chart of the Thema Mundi. He argues that this chart is the template for understanding Hellenistic astrology.

Valens understands all the cadent places to have to do with being away from home because the cadent sign is "turned away" from an angle.


Thanks Zoidsoft
So if my Sun is Gemini it will fall in house 12?


In the chart of the Thema Mundi, yes. More important where it falls in your chart.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In his latest newsletter Dave Roell of Astroamerica.com says he plans to publish this Valens translation at about 500 pages. Dave does a beautiful job of publishing classic texts (such as Lilly's Christian Astrology), but (as of now) this text will be pricey: about US $60.

The PDF version online is somewhat difficult to read, even printed (smaller font printed with long paragraphs). So we can have the online copy or an expensive copy in book form. Dave always adds extras to his classics. For this edition he plans tables, charts, a glossary and index. An artist with layout, Dave's publications are always very attractive and readable. No doubt the book will eventually be available through Amazon at a discount. http://www.astroamerica.com/astroamericanewsletter.pdf

Terrie
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Dave of Maryland



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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrStarman wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:
I noticed in another location of that translation that Valens, pg 38 (3rd paragraph) states the algorithm for finding the lot in the usual manner...


He also seems to use Whole sign houses, with MC-IC often in 9th or 11th houses. He comments that MC not only rules career and status but foreign affairs when placed in 9th


Valens uses Porphyry. At one point he gives instructions, I forget where.
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Dave of Maryland



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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terrie wrote:
In his latest newsletter Dave Roell of Astroamerica.com says he plans to publish this Valens translation at about 500 pages. Dave does a beautiful job of publishing classic texts (such as Lilly's Christian Astrology), but (as of now) this text will be pricey: about US $60.

The PDF version online is somewhat difficult to read, even printed (smaller font printed with long paragraphs). So we can have the online copy or an expensive copy in book form. Dave always adds extras to his classics. For this edition he plans tables, charts, a glossary and index. An artist with layout, Dave's publications are always very attractive and readable. No doubt the book will eventually be available through Amazon at a discount. http://www.astroamerica.com/astroamericanewsletter.pdf

Terrie


Hello Terrie, and everyone at Skyscript -

I am presently setting the text, am working on Book 5. The $60 price was based on a 500 page finished book, but Riley's revision of January 2011, resulted in 100-ish fewer pages. Those of you who have the December version, please note a 40 page duplication at the end of Book 1. There seems to have been other such problems. Fewer pages = lower price, but since Mr. Riley will get his share (he's earned it!), the price cannot go lower than $40 - but I expect Amazon will discount.

I have set the text on a largish page and am scribbling marginal notations, partly to myself, partly to help readers. I confess there are massive areas that I don't understand at all.

With Skyscript's help, there is the possibility of making this a critical edition. Here is what I propose:

I will post a finished pdf of each book, one at a time. This will be a proof of my actual edition, as it stands as of the moment.

I am hoping there will be people at Skyscript who will read the text and make critical notes on it, either posting directly on Skyscript - so that everyone may see them - or sent privately to me.

I want the entire text to be perfectly clear to any reasonably trained astrologer. The discussion about the Part of Fortune takes place in a context where Valens puts Fortune up against Daimon. What is Daimon? The inverse of Fortune! Fortune by night is Daimon by day.

Valens has all manner of counts. From here to there, counting this much or that much. Here is an example, from Book 5:

"Next the numbers 21 and 19 give information by their being in opposition: if we subtract 12 from 19, 7 is left; and if we multiply 3 times 7, we find 21. For the number 27, the <signs> 3 and 9 signs apart will be influential. If the year 24 is found to have a transmission, I will use it because of the factor 3. The stars which are 13, 25, or 37 signs apart stop at the same sign. If a star is in that sign, it will be transmitting to the <same> sign. If, when the star is there, other stars are in the next sign in order of the signs, it will transmit to them instead. Using the previous nativity as an example: in the 13th and 25th years, Mars transmits to Jupiter and Jupiter to the Moon. If no stars are found in the next sign, the stars transmit the year to themselves."

The chart under discussion has produced the numbers 21 & 29 by some mysterious process. He then process these numbers & uses them to produce counts of 13, 25 & 37. In this he reminds me of Wynn's No. 14 rule, which Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson picked up. "Transmission" I believe is reception. The "previous nativity" might be February 8, 120, first hour of night, location is presumably Alexandria - but I haven't worked it out.

I believe there are enough knowledgeable people, at Skyscript, and elsewhere, that, with your help, we can make a definitive edition of Valens, one that will stand the test of time, one that will still be in use in a thousand years. I don't care so much for myself, I can publish anything & would be happy to publish a rump text, just so we can have a line in the sand, something to work with. But I believe we can do so much more.

We can, we should, we will take ownership of our own past. David Pingree patched the book together, Mark Riley has translated it, it is up to us to present it to the world.

If Skyscript makes this a group effort, then on the title page, under Mark Riley's name as translator, I would be most pleased to put, "Critical notes/scholia by the contributors of Skyscript". And I would be most happy to identify individual contributors & their individual contributions, by name (or alias).

Did you ever want to be immortal? Name in history & all that? English has replaced Greek and Latin. Definitive English editions will, more or less, supplant the original. Valens is nearly 1900 years old already. It will still be prized in a thousand years.

Here is the link to Book 1: http://www.astroamerica.com/valensbook1.pdf
In the First Book, among other things, are formulas to calculate planetary positions from given starting dates. These dates need to be reduced to current notation, and the process set in plain English, with worked out examples. Sepharial knew these same routines.

Gnomon is part of a sundial. The shadow cast by the sun was how the ascendant was calculated, according to the klima, which is your latitude. Ptolemaic latitude, aka klima (in practice, seven zones), was based on the longest day of the year (summer solstice) and given in hours and minutes, which were themselves based on time as measured on the equinoxes, as otherwise "hours" were based on sunrise and sunset of the day in question. Sound like a different world? It was.

Anyone interested?

PS: Terrie's link to my newsletter needs to be updated to http://www.astroamerica.com/newsletters/2011-february22.pdf
I regret that it is unlikely the book will be done by spring. Autumn, anyone?
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave

Not to be a wet blanket, but can't help but feeling that inviting open suggestions for annotations is begging for trouble. This needs someone who really knows the text very well indeed and who could commit to acting as an editor/annotator of the controversial points, and who could point out the controversies that do exist. That would require quite a heavy investment of thought and time, which is why Mark Riley hasn't already done it himself.

In any case this could never be a critical edition, given Mark Riley's statement that he is giving up the text for what it is. Having a known expert involved willing to be accountable for any additions could give it more weight however; whereas inviting contibutions from anyone would make the publication less worthy in academic terms.

Just a thought, based on my awareness that certain passages have generated huge discussion in this forum, many of which have to be left open as currently unable to be satisfactorily resolved.

Regards
Deb
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Dave of Maryland



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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Hi Dave

Not to be a wet blanket, but can't help but feeling that inviting open suggestions for annotations is begging for trouble. This needs someone who really knows the text very well indeed and who could commit to acting as an editor/annotator of the controversial points, and who could point out the controversies that do exist. That would require quite a heavy investment of thought and time, which is why Mark Riley hasn't already done it himself.

In any case this could never be a critical edition, given Mark Riley's statement that he is giving up the text for what it is. Having a known expert involved willing to be accountable for any additions could give it more weight however; whereas inviting contibutions from anyone would make the publication less worthy in academic terms.

Just a thought, based on my awareness that certain passages have generated huge discussion in this forum, many of which have to be left open as currently unable to be satisfactorily resolved.

Regards
Deb


Hello Deb,

My thanks for your note. All that you say is true, but contributions have to go through me, and I can be fussy. For example, I worked hard on Blagrave and am reasonably happy that I solved a number of puzzles in that book. You have a number of contributors who genuinely impress me (yourself included), and I'm not easily impressed.

Comments are limited by the quality of the underlying translation, of course, but again, I am trying to establish a line in the sand. It might be that some contributors know Greek & have access to Pingree's critical edition & so can make educated guesses as to exactly what the translation should be. Nothing prevents a marginal note from suggesting an alternative wording.

Will it take time? Of course. I've set aside the next several months, at least.

But these are moot points, as, so far, I've had no takers. Regret that I don't follow Skyscript closely & so am not aware how much has already been thrashed out. I should use the search function and review some of those threads.

I am now working through Book 7. I am getting the impression that Valens may be a lot more simple than we think, but I am certain to be wrong. I am particularly interested in this "mystical" nonsense, as it seems to be the old alchemical "grudging vs: generous". It also has relevance to prose vs: poetry, and that Valens was either from a poor, uneducated background, or deliberately adopted a phony "poor man" identity in order to hide himself. In other words, Valens is a Cockney in the middle of high class London towne. Was that real, or not? Increasingly I think it was a pose, and that Valens, like Gurdjieff, writes to obscure, not reveal.
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Dave of Maryland



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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:09 pm    Post subject: Lots and lots of lots and lots Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

I took the time to survey prior discussion of Valens here on Skyscript. The search said 669 items on 45 pages of search, which was a lot, but after 10 pages it stopped, so maybe that was all there was (?).

So far as I could see, the discussion hasn't gotten beyond lots & book 2. I wanted to bore in on his counts. Valens is largely about counts, about signs of long & short ascension, about antiscia drawn from the current new moon, klima, etc. When you get all the books in front of you, it's a revelation.

Cheers to all -
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GR



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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave of Maryland wrote:


Here is an example, from Book 5:

"Next the numbers 21 and 19 give information by their being in opposition: if we subtract 12 from 19, 7 is left; and if we multiply 3 times 7, we find 21. For the number 27, the <signs> 3 and 9 signs apart will be influential. If the year 24 is found to have a transmission, I will use it because of the factor 3. The stars which are 13, 25, or 37 signs apart stop at the same sign. If a star is in that sign, it will be transmitting to the <same> sign. If, when the star is there, other stars are in the next sign in order of the signs, it will transmit to them instead. Using the previous nativity as an example: in the 13th and 25th years, Mars transmits to Jupiter and Jupiter to the Moon. If no stars are found in the next sign, the stars transmit the year to themselves."



These are all from profections, Dave. The 1st year (year of birth), 13th yr (12 years old), 25th, 37th, etc.

I'm not going to put words in Deb's mouth, but I think she's hinting at the problem, which is that the Riley is a 1st draft of a translation, and thus is riddled with errors. Curtis has pointed out a glaring one. Then there is the matter of that Riley is simply not interested in the astrology; his focus was on the math, and there is not any meaningful astrological commentary.

The idea that some group consensus is going to solve all the problems with this, is not credible. This is a large and unwieldy text, and it's not going to succumb to the peaks & prods of people on the Internet doing little bits in their spare time.
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