31
Hi Deb,

Deb wrote:
I have been to St Remy twice and somewhere I have a photo of me standing next to that plaque outside his childhood home, but despite searching, I can?t find it tonight. St Remy is a lovely place and was the region where Vincent Van Gogh lived and painted, so lots of good reasons to visit ? it also helps that I have relatives who live nearby.
Thanks sounds like a lovely place. Actually there is a You Tube film about his house which I will post up. Its strikes me there is a need for an alternative tourist guide outlining sites of special astrological interest like this. :)

Deb wrote:
I also spent a long day at Arles? library where the copy of the horary chart and the letter about it is housed, so that I could check the disagreements in reproduction between the versions published in 1961 by Edgar Leoni and that published in 1972 by Edgar Leroy (the Leroy reproduction is very unreliable).
I have Edgar Leoni's book but at 800 pages I am still working my way through it. :shock:

Deb wrote:
I agree with you that Nostradamus was using something along the lines of horary to generate his predictions. Unfortunately I haven?t made a study of the Rudolf chart and I find it difficult to pick out the details in graphic above.
The story of the horoscope of Rudolph of Hapsburg chart (later to be Rudolph II) is quite a saga in itself. I should have cited my source of that chart earlier. It was from an article by the Nostradamus researcher Elmar R. Gruber. He has tracked down a French original of the horoscope and the transcription. Apparently, Nostradamus needed it transcribed as his handwriting had become quite illegible by that time. It contains detailed delineation notes which give a real insight into the astrological thoughts of Nostradamus.

Here is the link

http://ramkat.free.fr/nerg1.html

He seems to relish the fact that Nostradamus, the famed prophet and seer, got two predictions wrong in his analysis. :shock: Firstly, he got the length of life for Rudolph wrong. Nostradamus predicted Rudolph would live to the age of 72 but he actually died at the age of 60. However, considering the importance of the person I find it very human that Nostradamus erred on the side of a longer life! Its interesting too that difference in times is 12 years ie a Jupiter cycle or a series of profections. However, he also points out that Nostradamus predicted Rudolph's father would die in 1589. In reality he died thirteen earlier in 1576.

Elmar R. Gruber has written a book in German which I understand discusses the Rudoph horoscope and the astrological analysis of Nostradamus in extensive detail. It is entitled: Nostradamus. Sein Leben, sein Werk und die wahre Bedeutung seiner Prophezeiungen (Nostradamus. His Life, his work, and the true meaning of his prophecies)

Deb wrote:
Re the house systems - according to J. D. North ?Horoscopes & History? (pp.35-38 ) the ?Regiomontanus system? was in use in the 11th century and was described by Abenmoat of Jaen in a manuscript which Johan Muller (a.k.a Regiomontanus) possessed.
Your lucky to have a copy of J.D. North! Its been out of print for ages. I am planning to go to the National Library of Scotland to study the book as its still probably the best book available on the history of house systems. At least thats what I hear from those that have read it! The Warburg Institute dont seem to be reprinting it any time soon. Of course its not unusual to find a house system named after a person who was not the originator. For example, Placidus and Porphyry houses have much longer ancestry than name associated to them.

Deb wrote:
BTW, going back to the earlier comment on chart reproduction, whole-sign houses don?t need separate calculation, because any astrologer can see the places just by looking at the signs ? so maybe the best way to reproduce a chart in the forum to ensure that everyone is catered for is to use a proportional house system, which also displays the signs equally around the wheel. ? (I?m also thinking that tradition astrologers like Masha?allah who looked at the placement of planets in houses by ?division? and ?counting? appear to have drawn the chart in the quadrant format, but could still easily refer to ?sign-places? by simply counting the signs).
Thats essentially what I do already on the mundane forum where I tend to put up charts in Placidus or Alcabitius. Although it is much easier to get the feel of a chart with whole sign houses in that specific format. Still numerically, there must be a lot more people accessing the forum who use a quadrant house system. Actually, I tried to put up a poll up once on this to sample what house system most members preferred charts to be displayed in on the mundane forum. However, I had problems getting it to work. I might come back to you on that point when you are back online.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

32
Deb wrote:
Data Source: Brief Discours in Ianus Gallicus (1594): ?Michel de Nostredame [...] naquit en la ville de Saint-Remy, en Provence, l'an de gr?ce 1503, un Jeudi 14 D?cembre, environ les douze heures de midi?. (Rodden Rating: B).
While 14/12/1503 (Julian Calendar) has been the generally accepted date I note that the French astrologer Patrice Guinard came up with fresh research in 2006 and put forward another date for the birth of Nostradamus which is 21/12/1503 (Julian Calendar). Hence Astrodatabank is displaying charts for both dates.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nos ... _Michel_de

Astrodatabank gives a link to Patrice Guinard's article summarising his research but the link appears to be dead.

I have had a look on the CURA site but haven't spotted it yet. I have found this link http://cura.free.fr/602A-index.html but all the material is in French and I dont have enough knowledge of the language to identify what might be relevant material to this issue.

I wondered is someone here might be aware of what the basis of Patrice Guinard's research was that led him to believe the true date for the birth of Nostradamus was actually a week later than the once universally accepted date?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

33
The article is here: http://cura.free.fr/dico8art/603A-epit.html

It's quite a while since I looked into this myself, but I previously noted that the main argument about the alternate date is based on archived reports of the text on the original tomb, which no longer stands, but which reported his age at death as 62 years, 6 months and 10 days - the argument is that this 7 days short of what it should be if calculated from 14 Dec (JC).

On the other hand, we have the contemporary report of his friend which states:

?Michel de Nostredame [...] naquit en la ville de Saint-Remy, en Provence, l'an de gr?ce 1503, un Jeudi 14 D?cembre, environ les douze heures de midi?. (Michel de Nostredame [...] born in the town of Saint Remy, the year of our lord 1503, a Thursday, around 12 noon)." Brief Discours, Ianus Gallicus (1594)

34
Hello Mark,

For what it worths, I have a chart from Boulainviller (1717). Don't know his source... It reads: "Nativity, 1503, December Day=14, hour=0, minute=0, St-Remy en Provence, Pole=43". Of course, LAT is intended. The chart match that of Astrodatabank with 2:4 Aries rising, MC 1:39 Cap, Moon 15 Scorp... Can't load the chart online but can email it if you give me an email ;-)

Sorry I am late on this discussion
Regards,
François CARRIÈRE

37
Deb wrote:
Thanks Deb. It is an old thread and I clearly missed the fact that Margherita had provided me with this link earlier in the thread!
It's quite a while since I looked into this myself, but I previously noted that the main argument about the alternate date is based on archived reports of the text on the original tomb, which no longer stands, but which reported his age at death as 62 years, 6 months and 10 days - the argument is that this 7 days short of what it should be if calculated from 14 Dec (JC).

On the other hand, we have the contemporary report of his friend which states:

?Michel de Nostredame [...] naquit en la ville de Saint-Remy, en Provence, l'an de gr?ce 1503, un Jeudi 14 D?cembre, environ les douze heures de midi?. (Michel de Nostredame [...] born in the town of Saint Remy, the year of our lord 1503, a Thursday, around 12 noon)." Brief Discours, Ianus Gallicus (1594)
Thanks again.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

38
carriere.francois wrote:
Hello Mark,

For what it worths, I have a chart from Boulainviller (1717). Don't know his source... It reads: "Nativity, 1503, December Day=14, hour=0, minute=0, St-Remy en Provence, Pole=43". Of course, LAT is intended. The chart match that of Astrodatabank with 2:4 Aries rising, MC 1:39 Cap, Moon 15 Scorp... Can't load the chart online but can email it if you give me an email Wink

Sorry I am late on this discussion
Sorry to take so long to thank you!

I have just started reading David Ovason's book ''The Nostradamus Code''. Whether you accept the historical fulfilment of various Nostradmaus prophecies or not Ovason's book is very well researched on the astrological context behind the period Nostradamus lived. Ovason provides intriguing explanations for many of the astrological quatrains of Nostradamus with an admirable knowledge of 16th century French astrology.

In his footnotes at the end of the book Ovason claims the earliest known published horoscope of Nostradamus was produced in John Gadbury's Cardines Coeli published in 1685. He displays a copy of Gadbury's horoscope in the book.

However, Ovason wrote his book in 1988. There has been a wealth of historical Nostradamian historical research since then. Most of it in French or German. It seems quite plausible that Gadbury was relying on an older French source.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

39
Nostradamus' Sun's antiscion is 28.5 degrees Sagittarius, which squares his Moons Nodes and Ascendant/Descendant axis. That is the kind of powerful aspect you often see in modern celebrities. Moons Nodes making 90 degree type tightly orbed aspects to the chart angles is very common in celebrities' charts.

40
For anyone interested in the Nostradamus quatrains, there is a set of fascinating books by Dolores Cannon. I don't know how well Dolores is known in Europe, but she's very well known and respected here in America. She died recently in her 80s last October. Dolores was a regression hypnotist and therapist, and her books describe actual conversations with Nostradamus. A great number of the quatrains are interpreted in the books.

In order to investigate this material with an open mind it's necessary to accept the contention of modern physics that in actuality time does not exist, and therefore it's possible for communication to occur between dimensions of time (historical periods and far beyond into the future). There are three Nostradamus books by Dolores Cannon, and the third book contains a general index and index of quatrains for the three books.

There are many fascinating details of Nostradamus' personal life, living situation, medical practices and habits in the books, plus the lives of his students. It was necessary for Nostradamus to write in code to avoid persecution by the Catholic Church.

At one point Dolores worked with an astrologer on dates from the quatrains, and the books have a few illustrated horoscopes as well as astrological information from Nostradamus on planetary positions and relationships. There is also the intriguing concept that some of the quatrains could have their foundation in conversations with others in the future in a kind of non-physical "in-between dimensions" communication area.

Two ideas in these books are (1) that certain quatrains refer to more than one event and time period since history and planetary relationships repeat themselves, and (2) quatrains can refer to possibilities rather than actualities as man's free will determines eventual outcomes.

Conversations with Nostradamus: His Prophecies Explained by Dolores Cannon (Ozark Mountain Publishing, Arkansas, USA)
Volume 1, 1989, re-print 2012 or later (revised edition, with sketched portrait of Nostradamus by a regression client/portrait artist) 358 pages, indexed
Volume 2, 1990 (later reprints) 356 pages, indexed
Volume 3, 1992 (later reprints) 365 pages with 3 volume index

Note: If the illustrated chart above could be condensed to a smaller size, then this page could return to the normal width, and we wouldn't have to scroll to read posts.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

41
If people want to keep an open mind on the subject of Nostradamus they need to realise that over the last few decades scholarship has seriously challenged the traditional stereotyped representation of Nostradamus as an inspired mystical seer or even a competent astrologer.

One theory that has gained quite a lot of traction since the 1980's is the notion that Nostradamus was simply recycling old texts from classical sources.

This view is put over very well by Peter Lemesurier in his recent book entitled Nostradamus, Bibliomancer : The Man, The Myth, The Truth (2010)

Lemesurier suggests Nostradamus believed that history repeats itself, and therefore projected known past events onto the future. Lemesurer argues Nostradamus simply used the process of bibliomancy - haphazardly selecting extracts of randomly chosen books, then later claimed divine inspiration.

What is interesting about Lemesurier is that he didn't start out from a hard wired sceptical position in the way of someone like James Randi. Quite to the contrary,in his earlier books he clearly believed in the literal accuracy of Nostradamus as a genuine seer/prophet. However, Lemesurier's views seem to have changed after he came across more recent historical research into Nostradamus. For example, the publication in 1983 of Nostradamus's private correspondence and, during succeeding years, of the original editions of 1555 and 1557 copies of the Prophecies discovered by Chomarat and Benazra, together with the unearthing of much original archival material revealed that much that was claimed about Nostradamus did not fit the documented facts.

While Lemesurier's ideas are new to English speakers they are well established in French language Nostradamus scholarship. The French Canadian academic Pierre Brind'Amour was really the pioneer of this theory and Lemesurer is simply encapsulating much of his research for a new English speaking audience.

Following extensive research by Pierre Brind'Amour , Lemesurier also provides evidence from almanacs and natal work suggesting the astrology of Nostradamus was often not very competent. This is not a new idea. Nostradamus had several astrological critics in his lifetime.

The most comprehensive of these critics was the 16th century French astrologer Laurens Videl. Videl heavily criticised Nostradamus for alleged astrological errors in a pamphlet entitled Declaration des abus ignorances et seditions de Michel Nostradamus published in 1557.

Videl criticizes both the contents of Nostradamus' predictions and his astrological-technical skills. He bases himself upon investigation of a number of Almanacs.

Videl mentions, for example, that Nostradamus in the description of the solar ingress in one of the cardinal signs (Aries, Cancer, Libra, Capricorn) gives erroneous longitudes of the Sun; notes the time moments of planetary positions in an odd way, makes mistakes while determining aspects and special circumstances (such as "combust") and gives erroneous longitudes of the Moon while discussing lunar phases.

The deceased Canadian professor Brind'Amour concluded in 1993, after thorough investigation, that the astrological-technical skills of Nostradamus were quite poor.

However, some errors and anomalies cannot be attributed to Nostradamus. These were undoubtably numerous printer's errors or errors, made by others who introduced texts or tables in this period. Some of Videl's conclusions could also be contested. Moreover, it is well acknowledged that the astrology in the Prophecies was often at odds with contemporary astrology of the 16th century and it was undoubtably both idiosyncratic and obscurantist. Still for those looking for astrological ammunition against Nostradamus Videl's pamphlet is a happy hunting ground.

Whether Videl is correct or not I am not personally convinced by the view of Pierre Brind'Amour/ Lemesurier that the prophecies of Nostradamus can all be reduced to simply the practise of bibliomancy.

My personal view, for what it is worth, is that I think Nostradamus did experience real visions. In the case of the astrological quatrains at least I think the process of Nostradamus was to cast a horoscope for the time of his vision. Because he believed in the cyclical nature of history he expected the vision to be fulfilled when the astrological configuration at the the time of the original vision was repeated at some point in the future. I therefore think the process was often somewhat like horary or perhaps more accurately a consultation chart. However, I think Nostradamus combined these ''vision charts'' with techniques from judicial or mundane astrology. In particular assigning countries to signs. Nostradamus himself tells us as much in his letter to Henry II. This would assist him in identifying which parts of the world would be effected in his vision.

I think some of the attempts to shoehorn the quatrains to fit a subsequent historical event look quite contrived to me. Nevertheless, I think Nostradamus does demonstrate a strong presentiment about the fall of the monarchy and the emergence of a republic in France.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly