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Lots combust?
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:10 pm    Post subject: Lots combust? Reply with quote

I have a sinking feeling, so I'd like to get some feedback on this from a few other folks, who hopefully have some research that contradicts mine.

Client, a woman, with:

Venus at 25 Libra (conjunct Spica Virgo)
Lot of Women's Marriage (ASC + Venus - Saturn) at 27 Libra
Sun at 29 Libra

Is the lot basically shot because of combustion?
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 659
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Lots combust? Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
I have a sinking feeling, so I'd like to get some feedback on this from a few other folks, who hopefully have some research that contradicts mine.

Client, a woman, with:

Venus at 25 Libra (conjunct Spica Virgo)
Lot of Women's Marriage (ASC + Venus - Saturn) at 27 Libra
Sun at 29 Libra

Is the lot basically shot because of combustion?


I doubt it. Lots probably can't be combust because they are "cast out" which is why they are called lots. They are not on the planetary realm with the Sun where they can be burned so easily, but they are theoretically part of the realm of the daimons (earth bound spirits). You might detect a hint of Christian religion in this (demons were cast out from heaven) which is the same root word. Schmidt calls them personal tutelary deities which can sway one's actions one way or another. Note the language used in finding the lots always says "and then an equal amount from the ascendant" which is the earth bound point to which they are cast down to.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea behind combustion is that a planet has no light because the Sun blots it out when it is within 8.5 degrees of the Sun. Therefore the planet is weakened (more contemporary view) or rendered powerless (old view). This of course begs the question of why a planet 30 degrees or more from the Sun has power in a day chart when the Sun renders it invisible.

The lots have no light of their own. They don't "do" anything, not in the way a planet does. Lots "are." They have no power to act. Therefore a lot being within 8.5 degrees of the Sun is neither empowered or rendered powerless or weakened. But if the lot's dispositor is combust, that might be a different matter.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree. I wound´t consider a lot combust the same way I wouldn´t consider the ASC to be combusted.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dispositor is combust, though. So that'd do it.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, the dispositor combust is a whole different thing.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

My opinion:
The Lots are not combust by being in the proximity of the Sun (whatever orb you use) for the same reason that a house is not combust just because the Sun is in it. In fact we don't usually say that the ascendant, Midheaven, etc. are combust.
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astrojin



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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

From Tom
Quote:
Yup, the dispositor combust is a whole different thing.

Agreed!
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We astrologers do seem to have an inordinate difficulty telling the difference between "active" tokens like planets, and points related to measurement, like houses, signs, lots and so on. Of course, the elephant in the room is that our representations of the "active" are really just tokens as well. Still I think it makes good sense to differentiate the measured from the measuring.

- Ed
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the dispositor is combust and the Sun is in fall, I would advise to look the condition of the Exaltation ruler of the Lot and especially any other planet aspecting the Lot closely (by 3º at the most) and investigate if those can deliver what Venus can not.

That is, if you accept that Venus is combust despite being in domicile.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people are conflating 2 different issues here. There is the issue of a planet being combust which is burning and then there is the issue of visibility which also has to do with how close it is to the Sun.

In most medieval texts there is a difference in range between being under the beams or "invisible" (usually 15) and being burned (usually 8 ) and this might have something to do with the difference. Theoretically a planet is doing several things and chief among them are providing testimony and witnessing. A lot is not quite an entity (like a theos), it is a bit like a disembodied spirit that was never a person. It doesn't have self awareness but it does have being. Planets are thought to have self awareness and therefore they can provide testimony and through sight they are able to witness. Lots do not have the power of sight so lots do not witness for other lots nor can they be a representative of a given house or an ambassador to others because they don't have self awareness. Lots are disembodied powers of the planets that have fallen to earth and their being is thought to be seen by other self aware entities so that they can be made manifest through incantation. However, a planet or a lot can be affected by visibility conditions and just as Olivia might be sitting towards the west at sunset in the glare, both planets and lots can become invisible. The lot is in the glare and Venus is not burned (because of the covered chariot concept), but Venus is also in the glare. This affects their ability to be seen and therefore it breaks down the testimony / witnessing that make things happen. Remember that these concepts were thought of during a time when magical incantation was enough to make something happen; speak it and it becomes so. In Genesis, it says that God told man to name all of the other animals in the field so that he could have dominion over them. This is part of the magical incantation idea and it is also why in Jewish tradition God's name is never spoken and the vowels are left out of YHVH, lest man to have dominion over God.

Venus can not see the lot through the glare but technically would not need to because a co-presence is not an "aspect" where the power of sight is involved. In other words your eyes can't pop out of your head so you can see yourself (you'd need a mirror), but planets in the same sign can "feel" each other. Venus would not need to provide testimony because being in her own places, she can effect from her own significations, but she still needs to know that its present in order to affect from her own significations. Some of this comes from Schmidt's ways of thinking about this subject, but he never put it together in quite this way.
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Olivia



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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And putting all that into the context of a chart that belongs to a living, breathing person is the challenge of it all.

PFN - the exaltation ruler is no help (peregrine Saturn and not aspecting the lot, anyway). But there is a trine from the Moon/Fortuna conjunction on the MC, though the Moon doesn't have any rulership over it. And Spica Virgo, plus Arcturus right there.

It means something, I'm sure of that. Just what - that I haven't worked out yet.
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###



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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. . . your eyes can't pop out of your head so you can see yourself (you'd need a mirror), but planets in the same sign can "feel" each other.


So maybe the Sun can be affected by combustion after all? (That was my question in two other recent combustion threads.) I just gotta know. Confused Otherwise, I might have to conclude that Sun conjunct Saturn in a chart with Leo rising would make for no Saturn influence on the native's health, vitality and personality because the Sun is supreme and is merely burning up and weakening Saturn.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Quote:
. . . your eyes can't pop out of your head so you can see yourself (you'd need a mirror), but planets in the same sign can "feel" each other.


So maybe the Sun can be affected by combustion after all? (That was my question in two other recent combustion threads.) I just gotta know. Confused Otherwise, I might have to conclude that Sun conjunct Saturn in a chart with Leo rising would make for no Saturn influence on the native's health, vitality and personality because the Sun is supreme and is merely burning up and weakening Saturn.


You're forgetting that Saturn rules the 6th and 7th houses in this case and that the Sun would negatively affect the lord of the 6th house. Such a person would burn like a nova full of vitality (Sun on Leo ascendant) and expire early due to of lack of restraint in areas related to health and partnership. One should look to see if Saturn is in own terms / bounds, otherwise look for hardening of the arteries in later years.
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are rather smart. Secret

About those term placements: Deb's new article on the terms mentions the conflicting views as to whether the first term ruler of Leo is Jupiter or Saturn. Just to make it all even messier, you know.


I honestly don't think anyone has a comfortable working relationship with combustion. I think they are glossing over the inconsistencies and contradictions. It appears to be a matter of faith and looking in the other direction. They just know that combustion is said to be important (except for Morin, of course). And it does indeed sound impressive. I myself am really grabbed by the solar/planet phase relationship, with a softening of the conflagration idea and more of a focus on the interaction between Sun and planet – the planet reporting to the Sun: 'OK, Sun, I went for a walk around the block and this is what's going on out there'. The Sun gets news it can use.
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