Saturn dignified

1
A lot isaid about how bad a Saturn in fall can be, as in the chart of Lee oswald Harvey, whose Aries Saturn ruled Capricorn Moon , ruler of Cancer Ascendant.
But what if in a similar case Saturn is dignified?
Any case studies available?
thanks

2
If Saturn is dignified it is not as "bad" or "mean" as an out of sect Saturn in fall and retrograde as in the case of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Of course the words "bad" and "mean" are used as a general statement, and in case I offend anybody by this simplistic view I wish to apologize :?
dmause wrote:But what if in a similar case Saturn is dignified?
Well in Oswald's case, he wouldn't be known for what he has allegedly done, would he?

One example of dignity that comes to mind: "Saturn is essentially a malefic but when in sect it becomes [is rendered] accidentally more benefic." Rob Hand. Although some may argue that sect is not a dignity. As Chris Brennan points out: "An important point to note is that sect is primarily a qualitative measurement that has to do with altering the benefic or malefic status of a planet in a given chart.? That is to say, a planet?s sect status alters the quality of that planet in the chart and the way that it acts as a benefic or malefic, for better or worse."

No case studies in hand though...


james

3
I think a more relevant way to look at it would be to consider if the planet is angular, because, in my view, angular planets lacking essential dignity are going to be more noticed than cadent planets lacking essential dignity and even essentially dignified angular planets.
In other words you tend to notice when the planet has accidental dignity but is essentially debilitated - for good or bad.

4
But what if in a similar case Saturn is dignified?
Any case studies available?
Dignified behavior of the planet depends a lot on the planet in question. Saturn essentially dignified is dignified in the ways of Saturn, which doesn't mean he's always going to be nice, since Saturn isn't known for being such a giving sort of guy. As Deb said in the horary forum, such a Saturn still might not give freely to the poor like Jupiter dignified, but he will undertake certain personality traits that are in keeping with his "dignified" nature, such as being good at responsibility, following rules, etc.

Mozart always comes to mind, as someone with a passion for music myself - he had a dignified Saturn in Aqu in the 5th house of music. He certainly was disciplined in his craft from a very early age (I think age 3?) - trying to get better than his sister originally. Saturn is still difficult in his chart, as 6th ruler especially and conjunct the ASC ruler (it's also combust). He had very poor health, chronically (Saturn). Off topic slightly, but we would see Mars is very ill and angular in his chart - it influences his 6th house and his 10th. Cancer tends to relate to major family turmoil, and he did lose his mother early and was not close to his father. He also had enemies in his career, etc.

Henry VIII is another one though, and he wasn't so nice as Mozart.

Astrotheme.com lists celebrities under signs of all of the planets, btw. If you'd like case studies.

Saturn in Cap -
Obama
George Clooney
James Dean
Audrey Hepburn
Jeffrey Dahmer (murderer)
Etc.

I remember an astrologer once remarking on Dahmer's pentagram shaped chart. I do kind of see it!

5
I couldn't help noting that Charles Manson's Saturn is very well placed in Aquarius in the 11th house. But his nemesis, the man who persuaded a jury not only to convict Manson but to give him a death sentence (later commuted),Vince Bugliosi, also has Saturn in Aquarius. In fact Manson and Bugliosi were born only three months apart.

Bugliosi is a well known workaholic and his Saturn in the 10th Rx reflects that pretty well. But all things considered Manson's Saturn seems better placed. It's not necessary to mention which man has had the more productive life.

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6
Ah but Tom, do you see the exchange between Bugliosi?s Sun Saturn (Sun in own sign, Saturn in own sign opposing one another, well engaged) vs Manson?s Saturn, @ 21 Aq, funneling its energy towards 21 Leo, NOT Saturn?s favorite place BTW, into the 5th house of ?enchantment?, as well as into a void?

8
Take also a look at Manson's stellium in Scorpio, where the Sun and Venus (ruler of the ASC) are right on the accursed degree and Saturn squares them from Scorpio! It's quite striking. Saturn's essential dignity in this case makes sure that the planet will deliver what it promises.

10
Does anyone here have Saturn in fall or retrograde in their own chart? How does it affect you?
I thought the thread was about a dignified Saturn?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

11
Take also a look at Manson's stellium in Scorpio, where the Sun and Venus (ruler of the ASC) are right on the accursed degree and Saturn squares them from Scorpio! It's quite striking. Saturn's essential dignity in this case makes sure that the planet will deliver what it promises.
I think you meant Saturn squares from Aquarius.

This is what interests me about this chart. Saturn, when viewed by itself is well dignified both accidentally and essentially. It is easily the Lord of the geniture (Lilly's method). Manson, is obviously a bit of a problem child. The squares from Scorpio seem to undermine the benefits of a highly dignified planet, and of particular import is the fact that there is a tight square from the Lady of the ASC who is both combust and in detriment. The peregrine Sun is no help.

Mars sextiles the Sun-Venus conjunction from Virgo. Manson, obviously possessing more than his share of loose screws, was an incoherent rationalizer of his own bizarre behavior (ever see him interviewed?). Or at least he was that way in front of a camera. He may have liked the attention he received for being nuts.

Venus is in tight aspect to both malefics, too, showing the power of the malefics, or at least one of them, even when highly dignified.

The other chart that comes to mind where the ruler of the ASC, also Venus, is in tight contact with both malefics is Adolph Hitler's. In his case Venus is essentially dignified (but retrograde) and in contact with debilitated malefics. His problems are more (astrologically) understandable.

In this case malefics are malefic regardless of their essential state. Whatever gifts Manson may have had for organization were perverted.

Bugliosi, as the moderns would say, internalizes his dignified Saturn in his work. He is, as stated above, a well known workaholic. The Manson trial took over a year to complete. He persuaded the jury that Manson had this screwball idea that he could start a race war which would end up with Charlie ruling the world. That sort of thing impressed Manson and he went along with it, perhaps disingenuously. A Manson family member not involved in the Tate - LaBianca murders told Truman Capote both murders were revenge for a drug deal gone bad. Who knows?

Bugliosi's Saturn is opposite the Sun, but both are highly dignified perhaps reducing the negative impact of the opposition. Note too that in both charts the ruler of the ASC is combust. This is tougher to figure in Bugliosi's chart as Mercury's power doesn't seem diminished in his life. He recently published a 1500+ page tome on the Kennedy assassination and is the author of several books.

The most obvious difference with Saturn in the two charts is that Saturn afflicts the ruler of the ASC and the Sun in Manson's with a tight square. In Bugliosi's chart Saturn afflicts Lord ASC but it is a lot wider, and the Sun is more powerful in Leo than in Scorpio.

12
That Mercury-Jupiter conjunction is right at the bendings - and Jupiter's ruling 8, 9 and 12, sitting on 7 - secret enemies become open enemies become people you kill? Which makes you god - or maybe 9 is the race paranoia. As you said, Tom, he was a twisted rationaliser. Anything at the bendings is always close to a break-point, in Manson's case, he really went over it.

Moon itself is not in good shape conjuncting the NN given that it's not only square the ascendant, but is its exaltation ruler. Moon/NN conjunction acts like - combustion? And it's properly ruling 4 - let's play dysfunctional families.

He was creepy. So's his chart the more I look at it. Yet I can't look away.