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A concern about payment
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: A concern about payment Reply with quote

We have Paulo (PFN) to thank for the latest proven horary to be offered up for discussion. I have just uploaded the full chart details to http://horary.co/charts/payment1.html

There is a return link at the bottom of that page to bring you back to this forum (It reads "[ Return link to the Skyscript discussion ]").

This is another great example of how clearly the traditional rules of horary perform, although not without some little areas of controversy which will be interesting to discuss. I don't want to say too much or give anything away because Paulo will be leading the discussion; so I'll just keep this brief: - great chart Paulo - thanks for sharing this!

Deb

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This horary arose from an online consultation with a querent with whom I already had some previous acquaintance. She was concerned about a delay in receiving payment for an advertisement she had sold to the Prefecture of her former town. Specifically she wanted to know when she would be paid. The advertisement had been sold in January 2010, and she had expected to receive payment in February. However, the administrative agent who was supposed to forward the necessary documents was away on travels, and the period during which she should have received her payment had expired as a consequence. The Prefecture bought another ad to help compensate for their mistake, assuring her that she would be paid for both advertisements in March. But the department of the City Hall then ran out of contingency funds, and transferred all responsibility to the Mayor's office. It went on like this, until finally the necessary documents were arranged - but then the administration department would not accept the invoice she had submitted, asking for another one.

All of this messing about made the querent very distressed, and by the time she asked the question in April she was worried whether there would be any further delays, or even if she would receive the money at all, since she had her own personal debts, and was in need of receiving the money quickly.

--------

Feel free to experiment with techniques, post judgments or ask questions. Beginners are especially welcome, so don't worry about asking 'newbie' questions !


Last edited by Deb on Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tanit



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Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay, these are fun!

I'll give it a start -

Quote:
The advertisement had been sold in January 2010

Mercury was retro in January and it is about to go retro again here - another chart (like my 'professional concerns' horary) with Mercury about to go retro to square Mars (again).

I am getting a Saturn hr. I don’t see agreement between ASC ruler and ASC or ASC ruler, but a Saturn hr would certainly be descriptive of the situation and her waiting around. It would be a bit more waiting, I think by this ruler, as would the general slowness of the planets in the chart. Sometimes a lack of hour agreement shows that things unfold unexpectedly, so we might wonder if things turn out better than expected or hoped, because she seems to think the opposite? Saturn is the 7th ruler, house of other people (also the astrologer - who might be afflicted in judgment by being retro), or people who should be paying her, and Saturn is very regimented in Virgo (I have this in natal, so I know), and it will sometimes just stick to the rules, even when it makes little common sense. All of the issues that are described with paperwork (Saturn disposited by Mercury) have logic to me – not using common sense and sending her the money, but making sure all of the T’s have been crossed, etc. Saturn is not well represented by being peregrine, under the earth, and retrograde, so this does seem to be their fault and she has every reason to have Mars on the ASC.

Saturn is also retro in the 2nd house of finances, showing this has been an on-going issue, and will likely continue this way, perhaps until Saturn goes direct into exaltation, where he behaves a bit better. Mars on the ASC (slow, just after a retro period, and peregrine) shows that she is very angry and irritated over this matter, which could be vocalized a bit with the pending Mercury-Mars square (some heated conversations). The lateness of the ASC shows that it may be decided already, there is little she can do, although not necessarily for the bad.

The publication/ads is Venus, 3rd ruler in the 10th (I guess this would be the sig for public ads). Venus is a natural sig for such things anyway, so this is very fitting.

There is a question of the budget, since they didn’t have the money to pay her previously, but the 8th ruler seems capable (domicile rulership, sitting fat in its own house). The 8th ruler is the house of other people’s money, although we sometimes do assign it as a house of loss. In this case I would think it is the house that will pay her, since the Moon is focused here and applying to the 8th ruler (and received) after aspecting Mercury, the 2nd ruler, and Venus, natural benefic (and the ads), so there is eventual translation of light between lord 2 and Venus, as well as Venus and lord 8. Mercury is not able to perfect an aspect to Venus on its own due to slowing to retro, but Moon does apply to translate light between them next. Moon-Venus would be in a mutual exaltation reception. Venus has a ton of essential and accidental dignity, and Jupiter is pretty well off also, which is usually good news in a financial chart, especially when the Moon is received by its dispositor and the dispositor is dignified (signs of Venus and Jupiter are also more fruitful for increase in income). The benefics seem to be the only bodies moving at a swift speed and having essential dignity. Venus angular here and so well off just seems like it would outweigh the negative. The probability that she will be paid is high, which I think is important to look for before you can judge timing. Moon is usually the best gauge of time, in my experience, and I would say the Moon-Mercury sextile would be the best bet of good movement in that direction, and Moon is applying from a succeedent house in a mutable sign, which is in months – so about 2 months from the question (June). By then, Mercury is direct, 2nd ruler, and so is Saturn, 7th ruler. The cardinal angles might show swiftness, but other factors in the chart seem to override this. I do think that this would require a lot of patience, with Saturn being very unhelpful in the chart. I would have warned her to watch her temper with the Mercury-Mars square and the eventual Moon-Saturn opp. There seems to be at least some butting of heads. Perhaps she will choose not to work with these people again with the final Moon-Saturn opposition, indicating a parting of ways.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because this is work for the Prefecture of the Town (not entirely sure what that means) and involves the 'heads' of the town, I'm using the 10th House to represent them and the 11th as their finances (money from the king).

It's probably fitting that Mercury, traditional ruler of money (I think?) is both Lord 2 and Lord 11, after all, they have the money that she is owed. Mercury has term and face dignity in this example, so although not excellent I believe they have enough money to pay the querent.

The ascendant is late. I'm not sure how to read this, is it too late for the querent to be receiving her money? I'm not sure, but it's unlikely, perhaps it is showing that something is about to change fairly soon. Either way Mars is in the first and it is probably understandable that she would be impatient and annoyed about this, however malefics are not just in the first, but the second as well. I wonder if it is just describing the situation though - delays, annoyance etc.

Mercury is slowing right down at the time of the horary, just about to retrograde in a couple of days time. Again this might describe the slow nature of the money making its transaction.
Moon in the 8th (of other people's money, but if I'm using the 11th is that relevant?) will perfect a sextile with Mercury in 2 degrees. Moon receives Mercury, but Mercury does not receive Moon. It's not a perfect reception but should be good enough I think. I believe the querent will be paid but will have to perhaps do some more chasing for it. I would think she'd be paid in a matter of two units of time, I'm thinking that it will be two weeks, but perhaps two months.

The idea that Mercury will retrograde in just over two degrees also suggests that the querent's money is coming back to her.
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PFN



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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all people, and especially Tanit and Paul.

I do not want to give away too much, so I'll refrain from coments that could lead to the answer, but I can say things are turning out interesting up till here Smile

Keep it up folks!
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AquaStella



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Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

The readings above seem quite reasonable to me.

Still I wonder if it isn't too risky for the astrologer to give judgement, with all these "considerations before judgement" ?

1. The late Asc might suggest the querent had already consulted others about this and simply didn't like the answer , so this is just another trial.
Maybe the question came too late and the querent knows the money is already in the mail, but hiding it from the astrologer to test him?

2. There is no agreement between the Asc ruler and the lord of the hour, which might suggest the querent is not honest.

3. Saturn rules the 7th house of astrologer and is both peregrine and Rx and above all at an anaretic degree (and afflicting money houses). Maybe this suggests the astrologer should retreat and refrain from judging the chart.

Mars and Sun, both the querent's co-significators, are in Saturn's (astrologer's) signs of detriment (Leo) and fall (Aries) respectively. The querent can damage the astrologer, so maybe this is not worth the trouble.

Mercury is supposed to signify the "money owed to the querent", as it is lord of the POF, 2nd and 11th??? Yet Moon, as the querent, is in Mercury's sign of detriment and fall, although it receives Mercury into its exaltation. Moon is in the 8th of "money owed to the querent" and received into Jupiter's (lord 8th) domicile.
This might suggest the querent is after whatever Jupiter signifies, not after the Mercurial money. Moon will have to perfect a few other aspects (with Mercury, Venus, POF) before it gets to unite with the desired Jupiterian money.
the Moon is the one applying to the other planets, and Asc is in a cardinal sign, so the querent has to act in order to get what she is after. It won't come in her direction voluntrarily, since mighty Venus lord 10 on the Mc (authorities) is in a fixed sign.

There are a whole sign and a Martial planet intercepted in the 1st house. The querent might be hiding vital information from the astrologer, and cannot be trusted. The astrologer is in for an unpleasant surprise, so maybe he should turn the querent down and avoid judgement.
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Tanit



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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Still I wonder if it isn't too risky for the astrologer to give judgement, with all these "considerations before judgement" ?

Laughing Yes, if we break it down we have at least three! And some astrologers might withold judgment on such a chart, in case their interpretation was wrong and/or unhelpful (or perhaps not listened to).

Deb mentioned that this chart might bring up controversial topics, so I was wondering if that's what she had in mind, or if I was (or we are) missing something. I guess we'll see!

I am really interested in forum members' interpretation of the warnings... This would be a great time to try to share info on the possible meanings.

Aquastella you said:

Quote:
1. The late Asc might suggest the querent had already consulted others about this and simply didn't like the answer , so this is just another trial. Maybe the question came too late and the querent knows the money is already in the mail, but hiding it from the astrologer to test him?


And here we would see this agrees with Lilly in his 43 Considerations
Quote:
Be not confident of the Judgment if either the 1st degrees or later of any Signe be ascending... if the later degrees arise, the matter of the question is elapsed. The matter of the question, and it’s probable the Querent, hath been tampering with others, or despaires of any successe, however, the Heavens advise you not to meddle with it at that time.


Quote:
2. There is no agreement between the Asc ruler and the lord of the hour, which might suggest the querent is not honest.


This I am not sure where you're coming up with. Is this from Leehman? Regarding dishonesty, I know I've read that Saturn retro in the 1st can show that the querent is not honest:

Quote:
The placement of Saturn. If in the 1st House, the Querent may be lying, although misleading may be a better match. In the 7th, the astrologer may not be properly placed to answer this Question unless the Question is itself of a 7th House nature, in which case Saturn simply becomes part of that delineation. In the 10th House, the Querent may damage the reputation of the horary astrologer.


http://leephd.blogspot.com/2006/07/encyclopedia-entry-on-horary-astrology.html

Whereas Lilly says in Christian Astrology, Book I, page 122:

Quote:
If Saturn be in the Ascendant, especially Retrograde, the matter of that Question seldom or never comes to good.


More closely related to dishonesty, he mentions combustion:
Quote:
If the Lord of the Ascendant be Combust, neither question propounded will take, or Querent be regulated.


Querent cannot be regulated, so perhaps they are not especially reliable.

I don't own a copy of Liber Astronomiae, but I found this quote second hand from Deb's link:

Quote:
Bonatti, Anima Astrologiae, p.69:
“The 143rd Consideration is to understand the true method of judging, and by what ways thou mayest come to some result, that thou mayst examine and rightfully discuss the same, and discover the truth of what the stars shall show thee? And herein there are 14 points to be considered and heeded:
1. Whether the Querent proposes the question really and intentively or not? For if the Lord of the Ascendant and Lord of the hour be the same or the Signs wherein those Significators are placed be of the same Triplicity or complection the Question is serious; but otherwise, if the Ascendant shall be the end of any Sign, the Question is not Radical.”


Hr disagreement is usually associated with a lack of rootedness, otherwise known as being radical, in the question. "Silly" questions can lack rootedness, but I would think questions where the querent asks out of impatience or anger (Mars on the ASC) might fall under this category?

Lilly says (again the 43 Considerations, but this is also again in Christian Astrology, book I):
Quote:
See the Question be radicall, or fit to be judged; which is, when the Lord of the Ascendant and hour be of one nature or Triplicity.

Judge not upon every slight motion, or without premeditation of the Querent, nor upon sight and triviall Questions, or when the Querent hath not wit to know what he would demand.


Deb has an article on lack of hr agreement with quotes by Bonatti here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_questions.html

Also a great resource to check hr agreement:
http://skyscript.co.uk/hour_agreement.pdf

Quote:
3. Saturn rules the 7th house of astrologer and is both peregrine and Rx and above all at an anaretic degree (and afflicting money houses). Maybe this suggests the astrologer should retreat and refrain from judging the chart.


This can be found in Book I again:
Quote:
You must also be wary, when in any question propounded you find the Cusp of the seventh house afflicted, or the Lord of that house Retrograde, or impedited, and the matter at that time not concerning the seventh house, but belonging to any other house, it’s an argument the judgment of the Astrologer’s will give small content, or any thing please the Querent; for the seventh house generally hath signification of the Artist.

Saturn in the seventh either corrupts the judgment of the Astrologer, or is a Sign the matter propounded will come from one misfortune to another.

The Lord of the 7th unfortunate, or in his fall, or Terms of the Infortunes, the Artist shall scarce give a solid judgment.


So this would agree with your interpretation, and shows that the astrologer's judgment is bad, or the querent will not find anything of use from the reading, etc.
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Laura Young



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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel I need to say in advance that I am very new to horary however I want to share what I can see in this chart in order to learn from my own misunderstandings and lack of experience, otherwise I will never learn so be gentle with me!

1. I agree the late Mars asc to me shows a question being asked after the querant either already knows or thinks she knows the answer and/or is very angry and impatient with it all
2. Saturn in retro in the 2nd house of her finances is obviously the fact this is a slow process which is going now where fast
3. Satun ruling the 7th in retro indiates to me that the astrologer may not get paid for a while either? or may have to commit to more than one session for this client before getting paid himself?
4. The moon in the 8th house of other peoples money is an indication what she is emotionally attached to at the time of the chart being erected, the moon is also ruling the 1st hse (of the querant) and the 12th house of 'hidden, secretive' things, indications are she may not be telling the true story? or has still to reveal other elements to this story
5. Venus and Mercury conjunct in the 9th is her money, her communicatuions all in the house of advertising, and the house of the legal system? ruled by her Asc in Mars and separtating from the square to Mars (angry words have been said, words have been written)
6. The Moon applying to conjunct Jupiter indicates she actually despite all of this may still get her money, however maybe this can only happen if she is honest enough to tell the truth and reveal what is still hidden in the 12th house which the Moon is ruling?

Any and all feed back very welcome!! Smile
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Tanit



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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking on the dishonesty issue with querent regarding a lack of hr agreement, and I guess it could happen because a lack of rootedness is associated with "silly" questions, which might also be dishonest questions. However, I thought that the late degree ASC was a bigger sign for a dishonest querent because they may meddle with other astrologers, or, in other words, are testing you? I quess I am just wondering how you might spot a dishonest querent, but I don't think there's a fast rule. A lack of hr agreement here doesn't seem like she's being dishonest to the astrologer, but that she is asking impatiently about WHEN is she going to get her darn money. You can almost picture an expletive in the question.
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't personally like late ascendants in horary charts, especially the last degree rising. To me this suggests there is something out of synch between the expressed question and the astrological moment plus, of those times when I've felt it would be almost immoral for me to judge the question asked (because it was quite dark or underhanded), I've had very late ascendants.
However, that tends to be the situation when the whole underlying theme of the chart is negative. But (I know I say this a lot but it is worth repeating) the best way to get the gist of a horary is to look at the planet that is closest to an angle or the aspect that is closest to perfection. If the chart doesn't have a reinforced negative theme then we can read the symbolism in a different light. Mars on the ascendant of someone who is known to be impatient and frustrated is descriptive - it’s more worrying when we see that in a chart of someone thinks that they are blissfully happy, or about to develop a loving and harmonious friendship/relationship.
Also, Saturn simply ruling the 7th house is not bad, or malefic, signification, even when it is peregrine and retrograde. It's a different story altogether when it's in that state on an angle, with a luminary in square or opposition. Here the Moon is well out of orb of contact with Saturn, so I don't think Saturn is particularly strong in this chart; but it is descriptive in the 2nd house, showing that this woman is in need of the money.
The late ascendant is a point of controversy, but perhaps we need to overlook that for now, at least until we can give this a hindsight review. Because the astrologer did judge and did get a good assessment of the situation using this chart, by not putting too much attention on that late ascendant.
BFN
Deb
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PFN



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Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Deb,

I was wondering about this discussion, and had the same advice in mind. "Do not sidetrack too much and worry about the considerations, losing focus on the question itself". I do respect the considerations (especially the damage to reputation Saturn on the MC can bring) but since I decided to judge the chart at the time anyway, and since I brought it up for discussion, it is because I find it is an interesting piece of example, no?

So, I guess it would be more profitable if everyone looked less about the astrologer than about the unfolding of the matter itself. But still, I dare say, if Saturn on the MC damages the reputation of the astrologer, what would a Venus in domicile do about it? Surprised

Keep up the good work people!
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elumen



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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not read all the previous posts in detail, because I like to form my sense of the chart before I'm influenced by other's opinions. But, I would say that the late degree, in this case may be symbolic of the state of this situation: the woman has money owed to her for a while and the late degree maybe representing that she is literally at the "end of the rope". I take the woman to be L1 and Perfectorate (the client) L7, b/c even though it is a governmental structure, it is her client. Their money is therefore L8, and it is suitable to see the Moon in the 8th. The woman's needs and interests are in getting her money from the client, and the Moon is approaching a conjunction with Jupiter, L8, dignified and in the 8th house, although it would first collect the light of Mercury and Venus. This is a positive sign, imo, b/c all planets are benefic (Mercury in this case represents her money, being L2), Venus is connected with the L10, so may represent the governmental office and also the outcome of woman's situation, Jupiter being a benific and essentially dignified, indicates fulfillment of her expectation rather than denial. The only thing is that the Moon is going to conj Jupiter in the 8th house, which indicates that not without some worry, and trouble, but she will get her money paid to her. As to when, it seems that the first contact between the Moon and Mercury in 2 degrees is indicative of 2 time units, and because, the asc is about to change signs, I'd say it is within 2 weeks, rather than 2 months. I'd say she'd get her money after some communication (perhaps a letter or a new bill, symbolized by Mercury) and with a help of a woman in the governmental office (Venus conj. h10).
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Tanit



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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been wracking my brain on the time factor... Moon succeedent and in a mutable sign seems like months, although sometimes the planet being aspected by the Moon is a better indicator. But even Mercury is angular but fixed, which is in months. The wonderful Venus angular is also in months (fixed). The ASC would be changing to a fixed sign, which is in months. And a lot of planets are slow, which is akin to retro movement for the luminaries. So even though the ASC is cardinal currently (swift), I am just not so confident about days or weeks for the 2 unit figure. But I hope for her sake I am wrong!
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AquaStella



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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Tanit, thank you for the valuable quotes. Thumbs up

I think this case is discussed in detail in Lilly's Christian Astrology pages 173-176. We still have to decide if the client is an ordinary client (p 173 "If the querent should obtaine...") signified by Saturn that afflicts the 2nd house, or is "the king or nobleman" from page 174 ("If one shall aquire that Gaine...") "who pay debts very slowly, and on whome the law takes little notice" (CA 174).

In the first case, Jupiter signifies the money owed to the querent, and so we find on page 176 ("Of the time whan the aforesaid accidents..."):

Quote:
Some of the ancients have said, that if at the hour of the question the planet which signifies the perfection of the thing demanded be in one sign with the lord of the ascendant, the matter shall than be brought to conclusion when the planet and the lord of the ascendant come to corporal conjunction in degrees and minutes,if the lord of the ascendant be the more ponderous...but if the lord of the asc be the more light planet so that he makes haste to the conjunction of the planet signifying the effecting of the matter, and that planet receives the lord of the asc, the matter will be finished...


Here Moon lord Asc applies to conjoin Jupiter lord 8th in Jupiter's domicile in the 8th, so the matter "is finished".

I'm not sure if this means that the money was already sent or desposited , or will be in a day or so. What does "Matter FINISHED" mean here?

In the second case, where the client is lord 10th and Mercury signifies the money, then according to CA176 (Moon succedent, Mercury Angular) querent will get the money in two months or so, as already said by other members.

I guess the so called "controversy" is about whether Mercury or Jupiter signify the money. I'll put my bet on Jupiter because:
1. Late Asc suggests "matter is finished", too.
2. Saturn lord 7th is the one afflicting the 2nd.
3. Moon lord Asc is in the 8th and received by Jupiter, while being in Mercury's detriiment and fall.

Then again, I could be wrong, since POF is disposited by Mercury, and Moon has a few other planets (obstacles or stages) to run into before meeting with Jupiter. Sick


Last edited by AquaStella on Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess the so called "controversy" ...



Perhaps I should clarify that my reference to "some little areas of controversy" was mainly realising that the ascendant is so late, that's all. Otherwise, there is nothing in this chart that is designed to trip anybody up.

Deb
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Virgo24



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Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a beginner I am posting this without reading earlier postings - I find the detail and expertise daunting. So apologies if I am going back over old ground – and thank you Paulo for encouraging beginners.

Cancer ASC at 29.28 is very late - indicating it could be too late to judge the issue, however it could indicate that an end or change is about to happen. Saturn retro in 2nd shows her financial worries.

Mars cjn Asc shows the querant is either angry or impatient and wants to assert herself. Mars also indicates haste and impatience – has she been too hasty/aggressive as there is a separating sq between Mercury and Mars? And with Lord of 1st in Pisces, perhaps also idealistic, not realising how slow and bureaucratically local governments can be. With Moon, Lord of 1st in 8th – there is certainly a danger that she could lose the money, especially as Jupiter, Lord of 8 is stronger than Mercury Lord of 2nd.

However the Moon is separating from a sq to Mercury and Venus, perhaps showing past difficulties, and is moving slowly towards a cjn with Jupiter, Lord of 8th - the debt, as well as applying by sextile to Mercury and then Venus (would form a minor grand trine if you were to include Pluto)

Venus is also angular in 10th suggesting a beneficial outcome/judgement – and is strong in the chart. Mercury, Lord of 2nd is in Taurus (ruled by Venus) & is also within 5 deg of 10th hse cusp, which could also suggest wealth.

Moon in Pisces/8th is mute, there may have been some confusion or lack of clarity, maybe in her haste she overlooked something, or something got lost. Is there some form of deception going on?

Unfortunately I do not have the horary expertise to work out timings, but a suceedent Moon suggests it will take time to sort out, and the applying sextiles to Mercury and Venus suggest that in order to get the money and improve her finances it may take time, effort and diligence.
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