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Conceived on the same day, at the same time and at the same location but birthed about 35 minutes apart, one is internationally famous, so much so that to most he is identifiable by the mention of only his first name (even by those born decades after his death), while the name of the other is unknown to the vast majority of the same people who recognize the former - Elvis had a twin.

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Wikipedia: "Jesse Garon Presley, his identical twin brother, was delivered 35 minutes before him, stillborn."
Elvis was born on 8 January 1935 at 04:35 AM in Tupelo, Mississippi, 34n15, 88w42.
Sounds like the first birth could be rounded, the second one more precise after the first, though it's supposed to be birth certificate based.
There would no change of angular signs or PF tropically, just a change of MC from Leo to Virgo and of PF from Virgo to Libra sidereally.
Graham

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hi graham,
thanks for digging a bit deeper on this. i am looking at this - 400am stillbirth will have ascendant at the saturn/neptune midpoint 5sag or thereabouts..

both charts have the sun/moon in a waning 45 degree aspect, so the pof and pos will be 45 from the ascendant in either direction.. with the 435am time i see how uranus is 135 exact from the ascendant - 180 opp the pof, and 90 the pos. it is not a part of the picture in the 4am birth. uranus has just turned direct, so it is a stationary planet in both charts, but much more pronounced in the 435am chart for the reasons i give.. the topic of stationary planets was one i started a few months ago and elvis's chart is another good example of this for anyone interested in considering the special role that stationary planets may represent. these are some of the kinds of things that astrologers using stationary planets, midpoints and 45/135 aspects will see which distinguishes the twins, that won't be picked up in more traditional formats. perhaps someone else sees something they'd like to share..

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Harmonics are clearly a candidate for understanding differences between twins. For example, according to the well-known Indian classic text the Parashara Hora Shastra Ch.6 (and I think also according to some other texts), the 60th division (shastiamsha, which changes ASC about every 2 minutes) is actually considered to be more important than the root chart (the "rashi") - it get 4 points, compared to 3.5:
When the 16 divisions (Shodash Varg Scheme) are considered together, the Vimshopak score goes thus: Hora 1, Trims??? 1, Dreshkan 1, Shodash??? 2, Nav??? 3, R??i 3?, Shashti??? 4 and the rest of the nine divisions each a half.
(google BPHS - I'm afraid I don't have the translator, and there are some issues about editions with parts of this text).
Graham
Last edited by Graham F on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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graham,

those indian astrologers sure came up with some interesting and original ideas! they seemed to be the first ones to focus on harmonics as i understand it. john addey used some of their ideas to initiate a deeper examination of this concept too as i understand it.

i always thought the 9th harmonic was considered quite important, but this is the first time i have heard the 60th harmonic is even more significant. you know messing around with solar fire, i see the ""shastiamsha "" although based on the 60th division, is somewhat different. i tried it on my chart both ways - vedic option and then just standard 60th harmonic way. the signs change, but the degrees of everything is the same.. do you know how relevant the sign positions when using this 60th division chart?

can you tell me if the indian astrologers look at these charts like harmonic charts, or do they think of them differently? this is sort of a variation on my first question! thanks for the info graham!

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Hi James
Of course you're right that the rashi chart and the the 9th harmonic are the most used in practice. The 60th division doesn't actually seem to be very much used, despite this verse in the BPHS, presumably because of the need for very accurate birthtime, but it's interesting an could be relevant for twins.

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't trust rulerships of any divisional charts, only the relationships they bring up (i.e. conjunctions and aspects it throws into light, via the new "whole sign houses"). So personally I'd use the non-Indian (true harmonic) option in SF, and ignore the signs, just look at the WSH.

Most Indian astrologers do use the rulerships, especially of the navamsa, but I agree with Fagan that the harmonic count should begin not with Aries but with Taurus (or maybe Leo, Aquarius or Scorpio - all these of course line up anyway in the D9 if started from Taurus). So to look at rulerships, ayanamsa has to be tinkered with or I have to mentally rename the signs for each harmonic chart (e.g. in the "normal" D9 as generated by an astro program, I have to call Capricorn "Taurus" and so on - Fagan gives a table for easy conversion in Astrological Origins.

The Aries start is probably an indication that much of Indian zodiacal astrology was borrowed either while Hellenistic astrology was still deep in the age of Aries, or more likely, once it had already been tropicalised, and was then re-siderealised in India.
I find the Hellenistic dodecatamoria very appealing (the harmonic 13th), as this automatically lines up with the beginning of each sign, which the Parashara D60 has to "jump" to do. But the D13 is not used in India, as far as I know.

Graham

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thanks graham,
i agree that harmonics can shed more light on the topic of minor differences in twins birth times. i appreciate that you've shared your perspective on what to do with the signs and to just look at the relationships between the planets as opposed to the rulerships. when you work with the rejigged zodiac starting at taurus do you adopt rulerships, or is this something you are still experimenting with? i had heard that relationships between the planets in the harmonic chart back to the natal chart had some significance. do you have any thoughts on this? i think i might have been asking this question on the navamsha thread in the other forum, but don't remember if i got any conclusive answer.. i haven't heard of anyone using the 60th harmonic, but any slight variation in the time would alter the results quickly. when i have looked at these harmonic charts, i am mostly looking at what you suggest and skipping the use of rulerships.. perhaps this is partly due how everything changes if you switch zodiacs anyway!!!