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Twins

 
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dmause



Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Posts: 78

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Twins Reply with quote

http://thezodiac.com/weird/twinsastrology.htm

Could this answer why twins are different?
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dmause



Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Posts: 78

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/spring05/hicksb/psy3135/bouchard_1990.pdf
Unless I misread it, the Minnesota twin study seems to support Astrology as MZA twins are very similar.
Have you heard about it before?

http://www.psych.umn.edu/psylabs/mtfs/special.htm

this update shows twins reared apart tend to be 50% similar
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TaniaM



Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 1
Location: US

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the links! Most interesting. I've always been interested in twins phenomenon.
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rohitkumar



Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 33
Location: India

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Twins Reply with quote

dmause wrote:
http://thezodiac.com/weird/twinsastrology.htm

Could this answer why twins are different?


Nice share I also Think about why twins are different....But there are time gap....
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unique_astrology



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 80

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conceived on the same day, at the same time and at the same location but birthed about 35 minutes apart, one is internationally famous, so much so that to most he is identifiable by the mention of only his first name (even by those born decades after his death), while the name of the other is unknown to the vast majority of the same people who recognize the former - Elvis had a twin.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1795
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi bob,
35 minutes in which direction? before or after?
thanks!
james
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 279

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wikipedia: "Jesse Garon Presley, his identical twin brother, was delivered 35 minutes before him, stillborn."
Elvis was born on 8 January 1935 at 04:35 AM in Tupelo, Mississippi, 34n15, 88w42.
Sounds like the first birth could be rounded, the second one more precise after the first, though it's supposed to be birth certificate based.
There would no change of angular signs or PF tropically, just a change of MC from Leo to Virgo and of PF from Virgo to Libra sidereally.
Graham
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi graham,
thanks for digging a bit deeper on this. i am looking at this - 400am stillbirth will have ascendant at the saturn/neptune midpoint 5sag or thereabouts..

both charts have the sun/moon in a waning 45 degree aspect, so the pof and pos will be 45 from the ascendant in either direction.. with the 435am time i see how uranus is 135 exact from the ascendant - 180 opp the pof, and 90 the pos. it is not a part of the picture in the 4am birth. uranus has just turned direct, so it is a stationary planet in both charts, but much more pronounced in the 435am chart for the reasons i give.. the topic of stationary planets was one i started a few months ago and elvis's chart is another good example of this for anyone interested in considering the special role that stationary planets may represent. these are some of the kinds of things that astrologers using stationary planets, midpoints and 45/135 aspects will see which distinguishes the twins, that won't be picked up in more traditional formats. perhaps someone else sees something they'd like to share..
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 279

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harmonics are clearly a candidate for understanding differences between twins. For example, according to the well-known Indian classic text the Parashara Hora Shastra Ch.6 (and I think also according to some other texts), the 60th division (shastiamsha, which changes ASC about every 2 minutes) is actually considered to be more important than the root chart (the "rashi") - it get 4 points, compared to 3.5:
Quote:
When the 16 divisions (Shodash Varg Scheme) are considered together, the Vimshopak score goes thus: Hora 1, Trimsāńś 1, Dreshkan 1, Shodashāńś 2, Navāńś 3, Rāśi 3, Shashtiāńś 4 and the rest of the nine divisions each a half.

(google BPHS - I'm afraid I don't have the translator, and there are some issues about editions with parts of this text).
Graham


Last edited by Graham F on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

graham,

those indian astrologers sure came up with some interesting and original ideas! they seemed to be the first ones to focus on harmonics as i understand it. john addey used some of their ideas to initiate a deeper examination of this concept too as i understand it.

i always thought the 9th harmonic was considered quite important, but this is the first time i have heard the 60th harmonic is even more significant. you know messing around with solar fire, i see the ""shastiamsha "" although based on the 60th division, is somewhat different. i tried it on my chart both ways - vedic option and then just standard 60th harmonic way. the signs change, but the degrees of everything is the same.. do you know how relevant the sign positions when using this 60th division chart?

can you tell me if the indian astrologers look at these charts like harmonic charts, or do they think of them differently? this is sort of a variation on my first question! thanks for the info graham!
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 279

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James
Of course you're right that the rashi chart and the the 9th harmonic are the most used in practice. The 60th division doesn't actually seem to be very much used, despite this verse in the BPHS, presumably because of the need for very accurate birthtime, but it's interesting an could be relevant for twins.

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't trust rulerships of any divisional charts, only the relationships they bring up (i.e. conjunctions and aspects it throws into light, via the new "whole sign houses"). So personally I'd use the non-Indian (true harmonic) option in SF, and ignore the signs, just look at the WSH.

Most Indian astrologers do use the rulerships, especially of the navamsa, but I agree with Fagan that the harmonic count should begin not with Aries but with Taurus (or maybe Leo, Aquarius or Scorpio - all these of course line up anyway in the D9 if started from Taurus). So to look at rulerships, ayanamsa has to be tinkered with or I have to mentally rename the signs for each harmonic chart (e.g. in the "normal" D9 as generated by an astro program, I have to call Capricorn "Taurus" and so on - Fagan gives a table for easy conversion in Astrological Origins.

The Aries start is probably an indication that much of Indian zodiacal astrology was borrowed either while Hellenistic astrology was still deep in the age of Aries, or more likely, once it had already been tropicalised, and was then re-siderealised in India.
I find the Hellenistic dodecatamoria very appealing (the harmonic 13th), as this automatically lines up with the beginning of each sign, which the Parashara D60 has to "jump" to do. But the D13 is not used in India, as far as I know.

Graham
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1795
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks graham,
i agree that harmonics can shed more light on the topic of minor differences in twins birth times. i appreciate that you've shared your perspective on what to do with the signs and to just look at the relationships between the planets as opposed to the rulerships. when you work with the rejigged zodiac starting at taurus do you adopt rulerships, or is this something you are still experimenting with? i had heard that relationships between the planets in the harmonic chart back to the natal chart had some significance. do you have any thoughts on this? i think i might have been asking this question on the navamsha thread in the other forum, but don't remember if i got any conclusive answer.. i haven't heard of anyone using the 60th harmonic, but any slight variation in the time would alter the results quickly. when i have looked at these harmonic charts, i am mostly looking at what you suggest and skipping the use of rulerships.. perhaps this is partly due how everything changes if you switch zodiacs anyway!!!
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 740
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that perhaps there had been much simpler solution to account for twins rather than Harmonics. Harmonics require much precise time birth calculations. Which are difficult even now a days and there is confusion regarding what constitutes the 'Time of Birth'.

Is it crying?
Delivery? or
Cutting of navel chord?

Perhaps there is a much simple solution. But for that we have to take our mind from the time ascendant theory (which was actually meant for horary astrology).

I propose (and please remember its just a speculation)

What makes twins different?

One of them is eldest while other is younger Or
One of them is a male or other is a female etc.

Lets find out exact degrees and minutes of planets.
According to Whole sign house system one of them should get a chart which has a first house in which sun is located and other moon. And if sun and moon are both in one sign one of them should get Sun/Moon chart while other should get next planet according to following order ...

1. Sun
2. Moon
3. Mars
4. Mercury
5. Jupiter
6. Venus
7. Saturn...

No offense meant and forgive me for speculating... Smile
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 279

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James
Quote:
is this something you are still experimenting with?

Yes! I'm still not sure whether rulerships are valid in harmonics/divisonals, even if we get the right zodiac, right starting place and everything.
Quote:
i had heard that relationships between the planets in the harmonic chart back to the natal chart had some significance.

Maybe one of the most hopeful avenues of exploration is the the concept of vargottama ("the best divison"). This was originally applied to navamsa only, but has tended to become extended to any divisional chart. If a planet is in vargottama, it's in the same "sign" in navamsa and rasi (root chart). There are 12 vargottama places in all, one in each sign. In the orthodox way of counting, starting with 0 Aries, each cardinal sign has the first navamsa (320') in the same sign as the rasi. In the fixed signs it's the 5th navamsa (the one in the middle of the sign), and in the mutable it's the last one. If we take 0 Taurus as the starting point instead, as Fagan suggests, we get an interesting parallel with the layout of the South Indian square chart form (in which the signs stay fixed and the ascendant moves around): the vargottama placements are at the end of Aries, the beginning of Taurus and the middle of Gemini (and so on), reflecting the structure of the chart.

There are rules about how to use the vargottama in various predictive techniques that might be worth examining, but here's a simple example of how it can be used (from a forum post) (the qualities of each "graha" - planet/factor - are emphasised when it's vargottama):
"Surya shows leadership.
Chandra shows sensitivity.
Mangal shows physical prowess.
Budha shows speech, communication.
Guru shows intellect.
Shukra shows beauty and will power.
Shani shows forbearance.
Rahu shows the ability to cross all boundaries.
Ketu shows insight and Maths.
Lagna shows Blessings of Longevity."

You write:
Quote:
when i have looked at these harmonic charts, i am mostly looking at what you suggest and skipping the use of rulerships.. perhaps this is partly due how everything changes if you switch zodiacs anyway!

Remember that not just the rulerships but also the points at which the divisions are made will change when you switch from sidereal to tropical or VV. This is why Addey claimed that some of his data showed patterns when using tropical harmonics (even without using rulerships) which disappear when converted to sidereal. But Addey also recognised that there may well be other new patterns that would appear, if for example one of the galactic nodes was used as the starting point in a sidereal zodiac (intersection ecliptic/ galactic equator - this was what Addey saw as the best candidate for a sidereal reference point).
Graham
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1795
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks graham,

i had forgotten the indian name for that - vargottama, but i could see how it would be a fun idea to apply to any of the harmonic charts instead of just for the 9th harmonic.

you are right that the starting point will completely alter the results. i think this is why getting any worthwhile info off the planets can't be done with rulerships, but perhaps aspect patterns. i suppose i am mostly thinking harmonics, verses indian astrology which i know very little about.

i notice how i will have my mercury in vargottama when i am looking at tropical natal and 9th harmonic, but it doesn't happen when i use lahiri instead of tropical.. obviously where the zodiac starts is important to this concept as well..

i do think these ideas could be valuable for understanding the differences in twins.
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