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Horary.co chart discussion - several concerns about work
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Horary.co chart discussion - several concerns about work Reply with quote

The ever-generous Tanit has contributed this horary and volunteered to lead this new discussion. Having marked it up for publication I can tell you that it’s a very interesting chart and Tanit’s own judgment shows a clear demonstration of how the astrological symbolism portrays the circumstances of the problem and the conclusion it was moving towards.

I don’t want to say too much or give away any details that people want to work out for themselves, but feel free to ask technical questions, submit your opinions or volunteer suggestions on how you would assign signification and judge the various elements of the querent’s concerns.

A full horary worksheet is available as a PDF download on the following link, and the known outcome will be posted there on 23rd September:

http://horary.co/charts/workconcern1.html



This horary considers a three-part question surrounding the querent's stressful work situation:
1. will she keep her position or will it change (be cut back or eliminated)?
2. Will she be able to maintain the peace with her boss?
3. will the strange co-worker finally be removed?

Details of the Question:
The querent had been feeling upset about a number of work problems. She was 33 years of age and worked as the head accountant at a large leisure industry outlet. She had been having a number of disputes and verbal disagreements with her female boss, an obese and severe woman in her mid 30s, who was described as argumentative and unwilling to listen properly to her employees' concerns. The querent is friendly, social and compassionate, but also outspoken by nature. She had tried to voice her concerns to her boss in the past, while other employees were generally afraid to approach her.

A recent cause of bad feeling arose when a coworker friend of the querent was verbally berated by their boss and also physically scratched, supposedly by accident although the querent doubted this. The querent was also going through an uncomfortable experience with a male coworker who exhibited odd behavior towards her and others, which made the querent sometimes fear for her safety. She had wanted to raise her concerns with her boss, but like all other issues that she had tried to discuss in the past, she was afraid to approach her about it. The querent primarily worried that having any further disagreements with her boss might be damaging for her position because she had already drawn attention to herself.

The strange male coworker had that week been put on suspension for drug use (someone other than the querent had apparently noticed his behavior). She hoped that the male coworker would now be laid off while on suspension, without her having to mention anything. If he wasn't laid off, she hoped he would at least not do anything hurtful to anyone at work. In addition to all of this, her industry was also experiencing job cuts (they were laying people off or making them switch shifts with pay cuts). The querent had already experienced a pay cut in the past, and had only recently been given back her proper pay. That month her employers were making decisions about jobs and she wanted guidance on whether she was likely to face any further pay cuts in the next few months, or would be made to switch shifts, or (worst case scenario) possibly lose her job.


Last edited by Deb on Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Mercury is querent and job, Sun is boss, Moon is salary (lord 11), Saturn is strange coworker (lord 6th with Neptune in the 6th), Venus is financial status (lord 2).

Considerations before judgements:
Saturn rx. in the 1st is supposed to destroy the question and give a negative answer. Not sure what that means. I'll try and read it anyway.

1. She will keep her position and it will not change, as Mercury lord 10 is in fixed Taurus, although under sunbeams, reflecting her fear of the boss (exalted-arrogant and aggressive in Aries).

2. She will be able to maintain peace with boss as Mercury is not making any hard aspects., but is together with strong Venus and exalted Moon in the same house. Mercury is also trine the Asc/desc and making a wide sextile to fat / powerful Jupiter in the 7th of relationaships, which is sextile benefic Venus too.

Her salary might be reduced as exalted Moon Lord 11 is conjunct fixed star Algol (worst of them all), it applies to trine a debilitated Saturn (reduction) and South Node is cnj the cusp of 11th.

Nevertheless, her financial status will not suffer, and might even improve, as Venus lord 2 is strong in its own sign and about to trine a very powerful benefic Jupiter in Pisces in the 7th. Maybe a relationship with someone is the cause for this. POF in the 2nd is disposited by strong Venus, but is conjunct FS Videnmiatrix. Might be a divorce will make her wealthier or marrying a rich person who owns a vineyard. Gobsmacked

3. Strange coworker was about to be fired, as Saturn is at an anaretic degree and debilitated, but he will return, as Saturn is Rx. and mutually applies to trine Moon. Confused
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yuzuru



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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One can find the relevant chapter of Christian Astrology here:
"If one shall continue in the Office or Command he is in" - p 447

The signs of leaving are very high:
mercury is cadent (yes, he is fixed, but cadency seems to be the most important factor on these charts. I don´t remember seeing any cadent ruler that remained in the job)
Mercury is conjunct venus. Venus is dignified but is ruler of the 9th, according to Lilly this shows querent losing position.
The trine of moon in algol to saturn on the first doesn´t bode well either. I believe this shows that querent will be removed. Acc to lilly:

Quote:
"If the Lord of the 1st or 10th, or Moon commit their disposition to any Planet in an Angle (except he be in the 4th) and that Planet be slow in motion, he shall not be removed from his Office or place of trust, untill that Receiver become Retrograde or approach to Combustion, or goe out of the Signe wherein he is


as the planet is already retrograde, I would see her losing her position either when Saturn turn direct or when it went back to libra.

I would expect either the worst case scenario or at least a huge pay cut
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"will she keep her position or will it change (be cut back or eliminated)? "

She will likely keep her position but experience a pay cut.
She is Mercury with only minor dignity in Taurus but also very slow at the time of this horary, just about to go retrograde in a few days, so her accidental dignity is very poor, especially being cadent and under the beams of the sun. Her 'power to act' is practically non-existent. As Mercury is approaching stationary to go retrograde my guess it that her 'situation' is about to be reversed. She's just been paid her normal salary again. But with venus, dispositor of the 2nd house being the swifter planet, and mercury having already perfected the aspect to venus (when she was put back on her regular salary?), it is now slowed down and about to retrograde away from venus and suggests that she will go back to her reduced salary. SN is also on the 11th House cusp, indicating her 'wages'.

PoF is in the second and Venus, Lord2, and Moon, Lord 11, are both full of essential dignity, so perhaps it won't be too drastic.
With the good essential dignity and with significators in a fixed sign, my guess is that she will keep her job. But the SN on the 11th house cusp, and her own significator retrograding away from Lord 2 again whilst under the sun beams might indicate a pay cut.
One thing that's worrying is that moon is conjunct caput algol which might show her losing her job, but if we take moon as ruler of lord 11 then again it could simply show the 'head' of her wages cut off, so a wage reduction. Not sure which way to call that.

"Will she be able to maintain the peace with her boss? "

Don't know how to read the boss in this horary. Mercury is the querent so cannot also be the boss? I'd be inclined to use the Sun, but I'm not sure. Sun is natural ruler of being the 'king', or boss. Mercury's last aspect was Mars which is in her 11th house of wages and is in mutual reception to the Sun. This might show that Mercury has recently had an argument or 'aggressive encounter' with her boss. However, due to mercury's iminent retrogradation, it seems likely that there will be an encore of this performance and likely another argument, perhaps about money. It seems unlikely that she will remain in good favour with her boss and that another argument is likely.


"will the strange co-worker finally be removed? "

I'm taking Jupiter as the co-worker, as it is Lord 7. Lord 7 is domicile and in its own house - it's going nowhere. Saturn is Lord 7's turned 12th house and is in Virgo. However Saturn is about to enter Libra where it gains greater dignity, perhaps he's cleaning up his drug problem?
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granny_skot



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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I shall take a stab at it... Smile

The moon is about to perfect a trine with Saturn, so is NOT VOC, so the chart seems absolutely valid. Also I suspect the moon perfecting with Saturn was representative of the situation with the coworker who was at a crises point. Mercury represents both Work and the Querent and is not in bad shape, yes mercury is going to go retrograde shortly, BUT that retrograde will only enhance Mercury in Venus as once he roles over 10 degrees, he's not only in his terms but in his face as well. Venus ruler of the second is also in good stead, she being in her own sign. and mercury doesn't go into aries but only to 2 degrees Tau, which is in Venus terms and still in mercury face. The moon is exalted in Taurus, here the moon represents the 11th house of hopes, wishes, friends etc. so I think the hope that the odd employee problem would be taken care of, is.

The boss. I would see the boss as also being Mercury and the boss as currently worried about a lot of the same things the querent is concerned about. employee with drug issue's, personal safety with such a person about, etc. though for the boss, that drugged out employee is probably Jupiter who is about to hit chaos. Jupiter was really moving pretty fast at this time, you notice today he's heading back for a roll over of uranus and its only 5 months from when this question was asked. for the boss, she is in her own 12th house and suffering setbacks of her own making, though she will probably survive them.

I would say that after some clearing of the air, and some compromise, this office will settle down, but that until they get rid of the addict, the office will not be very comfortable working environment. When Mercury hits the 8/9 house cusp in the retrograde there may be a blow up between boss and querent. this could go either way, but whatever way it lands, since the Querent then goes forward in her own face and terms, I would think it is a good outcome. meaning landing on her feet whether she stays at that company or finds other employment. The boss on the other hand we must recall still has to continue through her 12th house from the beginning. I suspect boss is the source of many of the bosses own problems.

One other point, I think Mercury Cadent, means slower to move, or frustrated rather than leaving.

well I look forward to the chart solution,

Granny.
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Virgo24



Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is challenging. I am coming up with some different significators but am new to horary so would appreciate feedback. I don't think I can draw any conclusions yet, but would like to test out whether I am beginning to pick up the right threads.

My thoughts so far..
Mercury represents the querant, her career (10th) and co-significates her boss (10th) along with the Sun in Aries /8th. Mercury is cadent, widely under the sunbeams (although out of sign) and about to turn retrograde. I thought this showed a weak position for the querant and her career. But perhaps also weakens the position of the boss, if Mercury is taken as one of the co-significators, also Sun is exhalted and strong in the chart but is in 8th so although oppressive, I wondered if this could also imply loss or a "death"

Saturn R in 1st shows the querant's fears and inhibitions and perhaps the previous cut in salary, however it is moving away from the cjn with 2nd hse cusp and will not be going direct for over a month, by which time Mercury will also be direct again.

Venus is Lord of 2nd is strongly placed and in an applying sex to Jupiter – could this suggest an improvement to the querant's finances?

I can see that co-workers can be significated by Lord of the 6th – and that with Neptune placed there it nicely fits with drugs. But I saw the 11th as being the house of colleagues – with Moon as it's Lord, in Taurus/9th . That would put all the significators together, which I thought could represent a situation that had reached stalemate, with everyone have strong opinions and thinking they were right?

Also Mars is in the 11th applying to a sq to Mercury – I thought showed increasing tension between the querent, boss and/or colleague, certainly the querant did not feel "safe" around the co-worker.

The Moon is exhalted and strong, but cjn Algol – suggesting violence, misfortune – could the colleague (or whoever is signified by the Moon) be heading for a downfall?

The Moon is applying to Neptune by sq – could this be the drugs and possibly exposure of the colleague - and by sex to Uranus, which I thought could suggest that something sudden and unexpected could happen or come to light.

This is where I am beginning to struggle.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I can see that co-workers can be significated by Lord of the 6th"

Virgo24

Why the sixth? I don't understand the logic behind it. I've seen someone claiming something similar in another horary but don't get why co-workers are 6th House. Surely they are 7th house instead? 6th House would be more relevant for people who work FOR you, not WITH you. So plumbers, electiricans etc who do work for you would be 6th house. To your boss, you would be 6th house as they employ you. But I don't understand how someone who you do not employ would be sixth house.
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Virgo24



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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul - thanks for that clarification regarding co-workers & 6th hse. I was refering back to a previous posting which had confused me because I had seen the Moon as the significator of the co-worker.
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

I'm in agreement with most of the views already posted.

Despite moving at average speed, waxing, and beholding the Ascendant (but not the MC), the Moon conjunct Algol and trining retro + peregrine Saturn, with Saturn ruling the 6th (as well as the 5th, fair enough) doesn't seem great for the situation in general. There aren't really any signs that things are looking up, IMO, so I'd expect at least a cut-back, if not worse. After leaving the aspects with Algol and Saturn the Moon moving into Gemini, despite heading towards the MC, will be square the Ascendant rather than being in trine with it. I'm not too sure what interpretation to put on the Moon being in the term and face of Saturn in this situation but I know it's relevant.

Mercury about to station puts it at its weakest - things are almost at a standstill, and about to get worse - and when it retrogrades it's going to go deeper into the Sun's beams and closer towards the 8th cusp. When it stationed to switch back to direct in May it was right on the 8th cusp. Since Mercury is within orb of the square to Mars there are clearly arguments that have been going on, and the heat is about to rise again but this time Mercury will be accidentally weaker. Although Mercury beholds the Ascendant, from Taurus it doesn't behold the MC.

Both Moon and Mercury are moving away from Venus, a benefic and their dispositor, as well as ruler of the querent's 2nd/money.

I don't really know how much weight, if any, to give to the Part of Fortune in the 2nd house...

Jupiter, the problem co-worker, is currently happily ensconced in his own little world, but beholds the boss's domain by square and the querent's by opposition and is in the sign of both their detriment. In late May Jupiter opposed Saturn and then changed signs, losing his dignified situation, and conjoined Uranus in June. I deduce from that that he was terminated (or had his role removed to somewhere where he could cause less trouble) around that time.

Will she keep her position or will it change? I think it'll be cut back, and maybe eliminated.

Will she be able to maintain the peace with her boss? Things are going to heat up again, so it would take a lot of defusing of the situation to keep things calm. The various job issues are going to have to be faced head-on regardless.

Will the problem co-worked finally be removed? I'd say so, yes, but not for a while longer since he's getting support from Venus via their applying sextile and mixed reception and it's not until later that he'll be opposed by Saturn (reality bites), loses his creature comforts (leaves his own sign), goes to the lesser dignity of his term in the first degrees of Aries, and becomes conjoined to Uranus (separation).

Regards

H.
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handn



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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention this earlier....

Two sig's in the 9th.... why the 9th? That has me stumped. Their dispositor in the 9th also. I've been thinking about it and it's probably something obvious, but I can't come up with why there is this 9th house thing being pointed at (aside from the cadency which Yuzuru's already talked about the relevance of).

Regards

H.
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Carol



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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

handn wrote:
I forgot to mention this earlier....

Two sig's in the 9th.... why the 9th? That has me stumped. Their dispositor in the 9th also. I've been thinking about it and it's probably something obvious, but I can't come up with why there is this 9th house thing being pointed at (aside from the cadency which Yuzuru's already talked about the relevance of).

Regards

H.


That was one of the most confusing things about this chart to me, too, along with the multiple significators, multiple initial questions, and trying to decide who was who, which significators to use for what, etc., but it's helped quite a bit to read other people's illuminating interpretations, which mostly seem to make a lot of sense.

The only thing I might add is that with Saturn in the 1st, I can't help wondering if there is some unknown factor about this whole thing that the querent and/or astrologer didn't know about until later, that ended up being a crucial or pretty important factor in the matter that unexpectedly affected or changed the whole outcome (as per "When Saturn is in the 1st" rules).

And the fact that Saturn comes from the 6th, fuzzy Neptune is in the 6th, and the main significators (Mercury, Moon, Venus) eventually square Nep. and trine Sat., make me suspect the above situation might be the case even more. But whether this might be good or bad for the querent is still a complete mystery to me.
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Taurus12



Joined: 31 Jul 2010
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think assigning significators to this question is half the battle.
I would take the Moon as the significator for the querent because Mercury would be represented by the boss which is lord 10. I'd take the job itself as the 6th which is Saturn and Jupiter as the co-worker.
I'm not too sure about taking Mercury for the boss though
Briefly because I spent so much time thinking about significators Smile:
I think the co-worker gets the boot as Saturn is opposing Jupiter and in the sign of it's detriment.
I think the querent retains her position as she is in exaltation and applying to Saturn. Saturn is in the sign of her finances detriment (Venus) and retrograde so perhaps she takes another pay cut. Although I am not too sure about this as it's a trine
The boss gets fired.
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Melina



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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my attempt. I didn´t read other people´s interpretations, for I wanted this to be my first sight analysis. Sorry if I´m repeating things other people have already said.


Will she keep her position?

She will keep her job (Saturn, lord of the VI, is in the 1st), but is Retro, and will not make the trine with Mercury (querent) until Mercury ends its retro motion, goes back direct, and the same thing happens with Saturn: the final trine shows she will keep the job, but the retro motion both the querent and the job are facing suggests a pay cut.
The moon will trine with Saturn (she keeping the job), but the Moon conjuncts Algol (the querent is not powerful enough to put pressure on the company to maintain her wage).


Relationship with the boss?

I believe it will improve, given that Mercury (both the boss –lord of the 10th- and the querent) is disposited by Venus at home in Taurus. Venus, being the natural planet of harmonic relations, also show both the boss and the querent share common interests (money –taurus-), and it is probable that the boss will also undergo difficult times in terms of work.

Co worker sacked?

The co worker looks strong being Jupiter in the VII. The job (lord of the XII, the VI from the VII), and having the Sun (job) in his second, also strong by sign. It is possible, however, that the coworker will be transferred or moved from the place he and the querent are working, for the last aspect Jupiter performs in the opposition with Saturn (the querent´s work).

Have a good one.
Very Happy
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, let's give it a try Very Happy

I haven't read what everybody else wrote, so please pardon me the repetitions which will surely occur.

Mercury - lord of the 10th, the job
Venus - the boss(the ruler of the job)
The Moon - the querent
Jupiter - the nasty co-worker

1. will she keep her position or will it change (be cut back or eliminated)?

I think she will not keep her position, due to the following reasons: the Moon is cadent, opposite to its house of joy, very slow in motion (less than 13 deg 10') which makes her similar to a retrograde planet. She is posited on the most maleficent fixed star, Algol, and is in the terms of Saturn, actually on the way of leaving her fixed sign of exaltation, Taurus. Before she can do that, she will encounter Saturn himself by trine. This in my interpretation is pretty damaging for her because she is committing her disposition to an ill-disposed planet which cannot retain her light, but sends it back to her, resulting in misfortune and increased pressure because of her cadency. Furthermore, Saturn will not be receiving her when the trine perfects, which is another generally negative testimony.

The job itself is beset by problems, and this is reflected in the fact that Mercury is in aversion to his domicile and is also slowing down before his first station, which will bring him into a renewed square aspect with Mars in Leo - this I take as a main indicator of a future strife and the loss of job. Mars in Leo is in an angle from all the main significators (except for Jupiter) which is also damaging, according to Bonatti. Mars as a ruler of the 3rd(aggressive communication, sarcasm and the like) and the 8th(death) but posited in the 12th sign probably shows the loss of temper on the part of the querent which brings about the catastrophe in a sort of a self-undoing outburst of anger. Mercury, when alternatively taken to describe the querent, is most closely aspected by the out-of sect, peregrine Mars which happens to sit right on Praesaepe, of the Moon/Mars nature, adding fuel to the fire. With the Moon on Algol, the ascendant on Zosma(the ferocious Leo) and Mercury squared by Mars, I understand why she's described as "outspoken" Smile moreover, Mars is also the exalted ruler of the 5th, which is 8th from the 10th(the "death" of the job).

Perhaps it is also important to note that the cusp of the 10th sits on another very violent, martian fixed star - Aldebaran. This certainly adds some more spice to the stew Smile and since the nature of Mars and the mars-like stars is to sever, destroy, cut, etc., you get the picture. On the top of it all, Mars closely aspects the cusp of the 10th by dexter sextile. So there's a lot of martian stuff around this particular job - not so good.

The presence of the south node on the cusp of the 11th is a testimony of the cuts in salary, and we also shouldn't forget Mars in this regard, which happens to fall in the 11th by division. My guess is that the cut in salary ( the damaged11th) may represent the trigger for the outbreak of the argument(s), which then leads to the loss of the job. Mars is also hurting the lot of fortune in the 2nd(his aspect is within the three degree orb, hence co-present with the lot), although "only" by sextile. His being in the 11th from the POF testifies to the 'acquisition' of a martian kind of damage on the part of the querent's well-being. The Moon is also the ruler of the 11th(salary) and its position on Algol and in the terms of Saturn is also an additional strong testimony for obstacles and decrease regarding payment. I might add that because of the aspect with Saturn and the position in his terms, a part of the many or some salaries won't be payed on time, she may even have to wait for them after she had quit her job.
The presence of the retrograde malefic in the first is generally a negative omen.

2. Will she be able to maintain the peace with her boss?

I doubt it, for the above mentioned reasons. Although her boss is in my opinion represented by a highly dignified benefic, this doesn't mean that this woman is all nice and sweet - we already know she isn't. She is Venus in a fixed, stubborn Taurus which may make her highly opinionated, self-absorbed, selfish, authoritative, etc person. Now the fact that the Moon separates from her dispositor, which happens to be Venus, is another sign the things are probably going to go downhill regarding the relationship of the two. The existing mutual reception shows a kind of a tug-of war, where neither side is prepared to launch an open war; I mean, there seems to be a lot of mutual respect between the two in terms of acknowledging the strength and personality of the other,but that is about to change with the Moon's change of sign.

Ok, that's it for now. There remains one more question to be answered and I'll leave that for later.

Goran


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cor scorpii



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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3. will the strange co-worker finally be removed?

I'm not so sure what to think about this...Jupiter is in its own domicile and angular, oriental, in its sect, with the Sun above the horizon, Venus receives him in her exaltation and there's an applying sextile, the boss being represented by a faster moving planet. It seems to me she is pretty open-minded and liberal when it comes to his 'strangeness' and is ready to receive him back to work, at least for the near future.

One more thing I wanted to add concerning the appearance of the female - boss (Venus) but forgot to mention it in the previous post - she is described as an obese woman. Now it is very fitting to find this Jupiter in almost an exact sextile with Venus, indicating the tendency (among other things) to physical 'expansion'. This is underscored, in my opinion, by Jupiter in a watery, phlegmatic sign, which generally describe people prone to self-indulgence and passivity; the influence of Jupiter makes her at the same time very self-righteous, bossy, prone to dramatizing, even arrogant.

The only thing that might spoil the fun to him is this approaching opposition to Saturn from Virgo, and that may bring additional restrictions/problems for him, since Saturn rules his 12th (self undoing, isolation, prison?). About the time of this opposition (the second half of May) he might have done 'something' again, which caused him to be fired at the beginning of June, when Jupiter entered Aries and lost the control of his domicile (aversion). Since Saturn is posited in the 1st, and has a testimony there by term(Egyptian set) he may to an extent serve as a co-significator of the querent. The opposition happens o the axis 1st - 7th houses, so I suspect that it came to a sort of 'fight' or 'open hostility' - like situation between him and the querent, which didn't serve him well (Saturn as the ruler of his 12th).

Since he is angular and oriental, the co-worker's actions and deeds just attract attention and cannot remain low-profile; on another hand, being represented by this over indulgent, watery Jupiter that loses the sense for the appropriate/boundaries all to easily, he isn't even much concerned about the opinion of others - in his own eyes, he is the ruler of the world, unable to make(big/unpardonable) mistakes and everybody should see it that way; if they don't/can't - well, then everything is actually THEIR problem Smile

In the end, the ruler of the preceding syzygy in Aries is Mars in Leo. His condition and role in this horary are pretty negative, and that is one more testimony the things didn't turn out well for the querent in the end. At the very best, she experienced 'only' significant cuts in her salary, but as I've already explained, I doubt it remained only at that. She eventually lost her job as well.


Ok, so now I can't wait to hear what really transpired Very Happy

Greetings,
Goran
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