skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Cars - 2nd or 3rd? Interesting

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1544

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: Cars - 2nd or 3rd? Interesting Reply with quote

I won't post the whole chart, but just because of its interest, I did a horary the other day for my mum on whether she should take her car or her husband's car to collect family from the airport.

Reason being that her car is smaller but is better quality and drives well. His car is bigger (so more room) but is temperamental and is forever needing work done on it - it's falling apart.

Having never driven to the airport before, she wasn't sure if she should risk taking his car, or just squash everyone into her own.

Because Frawley's book on horary was my introduction to the subject, and because he states explicitly that cars, being a possession, are a second house item, I decided before drawing up the horary that I would use Lord 2 for her car, and Lord 8 for his car.

Lord 2 was Mars in detriment in Libra.
Lord 8 was Venus domicile in Libra.

Of the two cars, HIS car was in the better condition. I couldn't work it out, I went all around the dignities to see what was going on but there was no way I could find to indicate why his car was showing up so strong and hers so badly when I KNOW that that isn't the case.

Then I noticed the 3rd house cusp. Lord 3 was Venus, Lord 9 was Mars. So, if I took the third house cusp (as per the article on skyscript) rather than the 2nd, the horary seemed to fit what I knew to be true and was much more reflective of the situation.
Ben Dykes once described debility and fall as being like a corrupting quality, or a disintegrating quality to the significator - its falling apart. Mars in detriment is definitely more descriptive of the husband's car which really is breaking down and falling apart and is cheaper and of much poorer quality.



Conclusion:
Despite approaching the horary fully expecting to use Lord 2 to signify cars, it just wasn't appropriate. The horary clearly described the cars as being signified by Lord 3.
What's interesting about it is that it suggests that actually there IS some objective scale to which the horary chart conforms, rather than the mindset of the astrologer determining the significators. I had previously wondered if, because you decide it prior to the horary, whatever house you 'feel' or 'believe' is the correct one, the horary would conform to it. However in this case it did not. Despite expecting the car to be Lord 2 (because I liked Frawley's logic on that issue), the horary was not determined by my, the astrologer's, mindset but by an objective 'rule' that is true irrespective of the astrologer.

Thought I'd just share that as it confirms what the skyscript article suggests. I wonder if the horary was to be about the 'value' of the car, in terms of selling or buying, whether Lord 2 would be more appropriate, but in terms of the car being a vehicle for travelling, it seems Lord 3 is the more appropriate. Perhaps it depends on the context of the question?

Either way it confirms what other astrology writers (Olivia Barclay, Derek Appleby etc) have suggested in that the horary should inform and guide the astrologer.


[edit]
Just remembered that Saturn was in the 7th House indicating that the astrologer may be impaired in his judgement. Perhaps the impairment being that I was approaching the horary incorrectly - as in, I had my significators all wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The car as a travel vehicle should be signified by the 6th and 12th houses, IMHO, as it takes the role of a horse (12th house) and carriage (6th house).

Could you share the chart in question,please?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1544

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AquaStella

The chart can be found here:
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/223/c1c/223c1cd1-329b-49c7-8334-483453d94513

If both the 6th and 12th are used for a car, then how would you differentiate between 'his' car and 'her' car?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 696
Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can't work in this particular chart since 1st and 12th are both saturn and 6th is moon.

I hate it when this happens! I get it sometimes in my profit horaries for the horses. Since you are the astrologer and have already decided that the car is a possession, so 2nd, maybe stick to that? The querent is in good shape and the moon is exulted in 3rd of short journeys, so maybe she's ok either way?

I suppose she's saying will the journey in his car be ok/uneventful? Yes, exulted moon in 3rd, arguably void since it has to change signs before perfecting with saturn..
or Will his car make the journey? Back to 2nd v 3rd, but that sounds more like a possession to me. I think I'm leaning towards 2nd house generally, since it is the condition of the "thing" that is in question in order to make the short journey (3rd)... unless it's a really long way to the airport? : ) (9th?? probably not)

"Of the two cars, HIS car was in the better condition. I couldn't work it out, I went all around the dignities to see what was going on but there was no way I could find to indicate why his car was showing up so strong and hers so badly when I KNOW that that isn't the case. "

maybe just because his is more suitable? ie roomy with space for luggage.

Any comment on mercury, short journeys, being combust? Maybe husband ends doing the journey instead? I don't think it's malefic but others may disagree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 696
Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ps did you ask the question or your mum? I'm assuming the latter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1544

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pallas

My mum asked. She'd been deliberating about it for ages. She knows that really her husband's car is the better one to take in terms of room and spaciousness, but her own car is much much much more reliable. His car slips out of gears and everything.

"I think I'm leaning towards 2nd house generally, since it is the condition of the "thing" that is in question in order to make the short journey (3rd)... unless it's a really long way to the airport? : ) (9th?? probably not) "

The problem is that reality doesn't get reflected by the horary if you use the 2nd for the car. That would make his car have good dignity and not hers, and in reality it's the other way around. His phsyical car is in bad condition - not he journey, his actual car. So even though I also prefer the logic of using the 2nd house for the car, the horary would not match up to reality if I did that. But if I use the 3rd house, then it WOULD match up.

My thinking is that the horary question was in the context of a journey, and so the car, despite being a possession, is signified under the context of its use and so is a 3rd house matter. BUt if the question were about the car in terms of buying one or of selling one, my guess is that the 3rd house would become less relevant and it would be a 2nd house matter. Not sure though.
Either way the only way that I can make this horary match up to reality is to use the 3rd house. Certainly nobody who has ever driven both cars would ever say that his is the better car. Everyone, including himself, acknowledge that her car is better.

"Any comment on mercury, short journeys, being combust? Maybe husband ends doing the journey instead? I don't think it's malefic but others may disagree."

Sun is peregrine and making mercury combust and mercury is already retrograde. Mercury retrograde and combust doesn't bode well in terms of accidental dignity.
However I've just found out that he is going to sell his car in a couple of days and the place he's selling it and buying a new one is RIGHT on the way to the airport, it's very near it just a few minutes away along that journey. So he'll be making the same trip in a few days to get rid of his car and buy a new one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 696
Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aha! And will that new car be the one the journey is made in?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1544

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"aha! And will that new car be the one the journey is made in?"

No, I had wondered that too when I heard he was selling his own, but the journey has now just taken place. My mum went in her own car in the end is on her way back from the airport. However it is very likely that my stepdad will be the one to bring them back to the airport and will do so in his own car.

Seems like using Lord 3 and recognising the Moon in the 3rd well dignified, Saturn, as my mum, is also well dignified and Venus is ALSO well dignified as ruler of hte car. The three enjoy mutual reception with one another and are all disposited by Venus, ruler of the car but also of short journeys. Guess it was all in there in the end. I had wondered about Saturn in the 7th as meaning that she (saturn) would be in his car (7th?).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aquastella,

I agree with your reasoning about the twelfth house and cars. I seem to remember a definitions of large cattle as being animals you can saddle up and ride or yoke to a plough. This is in contrast to the smaller animals of the sixth.

I will try and find this reference unless you recall it offhand yourself.

regards

Matt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
horarcek



Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 149
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the book "The Houses" by our dear Deb:
p. 65
If someone asks about the financial prospects of selling their car this is a 2nd house matter concerning a personal possession; in other matters cars generally fall under the rulership of the 3rd house of day-to-day travel issues.

Trojan
_________________
Reges Subjucent Legibus Stellarum
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1544

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horarcek

Thank you SO much for that. That sentiment is pretty much the exact same thing I was beginning to speculate about. I need to get my hands on Deb's book. That's her only one right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated