Even though Churchill?s Mars is detriment in Libra his chart has a preponderance of fire.
Sun, Moon, Venus, Uranus, Neptune, more than half his planets
And there is a Grand Trine between Moon, Ven, Nep in Fire signs.
Fire suggests great expression of self, confidence, and courage; a spirited, vital, active man who who throws himself into his current endeavor with great enthusiasm and panache.

Fire suggests great expression of self, confidence, and courage; a spirited, vital, active man who who throws himself into his current endeavor with great enthusiasm and panache.

That certainly sounds very much like the Churchill I have read about. Although in his mid 60's when Prime minister he reportedly often moved so rapidly his younger aids struggled to keep up! Its reported that when he replaced Chamberlain as PM there a new found sense of urgency and purpose at all levels of government. Sedentary civil servants were seen to run down corridors. He almost seemed to crave situations of personal danger. For example his spectacular escape from imprisonment by Boers during his time as a jounalist in the South African war. He had seriously hoped to be present at the initial Normandy landings. It was only when the King stated he would go with Churchill if he went that he dropped the idea. Churchill's war speeches remain famous and demonstrated an unsurmountable degree of optimism , pugnacity and determination which was infectious.

Mark -

You said before the essential dignity must be balanced with the accidental dignity. And you said:

As with all astrology its a complex weaving of various factors in a delineation.

Churchill's Mars has accidental dignity by rising in 1st house and also conjunct Jupiter. His Mars has only easy aspects: a trine from Saturn strong in Aquarius, a sextile from Uranus, and a sextile from Venus, the ruler of Mars. I think these must have outweighed the debility of Mars in Libra.

He has Saturn in 5th house which is reputed to be the classic signature of the unloved child. He spend his childhood in boarding schools and wrote letters pleading with his mother to come visit him or let him come visit her. He hardly knew his father who died when Winston was 21. He seems to have been given very little time by either parent. In a lesser soul this would have probably been crushing.

~Kent~ wrote:But doesn?t this idea fly in the face of Mars being domicile and dignified in Aries, where it is pure Mars

A planet essentially dignified works for good and manifests its positive qualities, while its bark is worse than its bite. This holds true for both Saturn and Mars. Remember that without the Saturnian principle of restriction, patience and perseverance none of the great things that made this world go round would have happened! The same with Mars: he provides the energy, drive, enthusiasm and power needed to make it through life. When essentially dignified (as in Aries, Scorpio or Capricorn), its positive nature tends to manifest.

He has Saturn in 5th house which is reputed to be the classic signature of the unloved child. He spend his childhood in boarding schools and wrote letters pleading with his mother to come visit him or let him come visit her. He hardly knew his father who died when Winston was 21. He seems to have been given very little time by either parent. In a lesser soul this would have probably been crushing.

Yes he must have been emotionally resiliant. Just surprised you are getting that from the 5th house. I would have thought its more relevant that Saturn is ruling the 4th hence hinting at the austere early family life. Saturn is ruling both the 4th and 5th traditionally. As its a night chart Saturn is the natural significator for the Father here. Saturn also rules the house associated with the parents and especially Father (4th). Saturn is strongly dignified in Aquarius. However, its out of sect in a night chart and in the waning phase to the Sun (occidental). This makes the already dry and cold Saturn even more so. Churchill's father Randolph Churchill was one of the greatest figures of the 19th century Conservative party. He left an intimidating legacy which Winston Churchill struggled to live up to. Churchill himself seems to have enjoyed a happier family life and had 5 children.

A planet essentially dignified works for good and manifests its positive qualities, while its bark is worse than its bite. This holds true for both Saturn and Mars. Remember that without the Saturnian principle of restriction, patience and perseverance none of the great things that made this world go round would have happened! The same with Mars: he provides the energy, drive, enthusiasm and power needed to make it through life. When essentially dignified (as in Aries, Scorpio or Capricorn), its positive nature tends to manifest.

I agree thats a good start but you must know its more complicated than that!
Look at the chart we were just discussing of Winston Churchill. A very dignified Saturn in Aquarius ruling the 4th house/IC. However, it was far from plain sailing for Churchill. His Saturn is out of sect and occidental of the Sun. Planetary sect and phase were often emphasized by ancient astrologers as much as essential dignity. Anyway, its late and I have devoted enough to this thread. Time to let others chip in.

Mark

Just surprised you are getting that from the 5th house. I would have thought its more relevant that Saturn is ruling the 4th hence hinting at the austere early family life. Saturn is ruling both the 4th and 5th traditionally. As its a night chart Saturn is the natural significator for the Father here. Saturn also rules the house associated with the parents and especially Father (4th). Saturn is strongly dignified in Aquarius. However, its out of sect in a night chart and in the waning phase to the Sun (occidental). This makes the already dry and cold Saturn even more so. Churchill's father Randolph Churchill was one of the greatest figures of the 19th century Conservative party. He left an intimidating legacy which Winston Churchill struggled to live up to. Churchill himself seems to have enjoyed a happier family life and had 5 children.

Thank you. I appreciate your interpretation of Saturn?s rulership over his 4th house. I enjoy learning from you. It is the reason I came to this site: to get a deeper understanding of traditional astrology. I think the influence of Winston?s 4th house may go even beyond his father to the entire lineage on his father?s side. He has historically significant ancestors.

Lord Randolph was the younger son of the seventh Duke of Marlborough, and, as such, neither he nor Winston were likely to succeed to the family title. Nonetheless, from his earliest days Winston was acutely aware of his lineage. He was born and often stayed at Blenheim Palace, the mansion built by his illustrious ancestor, the first Duke of Marlborough, to commemorate his famous victory over the French in 1704.

That ties in several 4th house themes of father, lineage, and ancestral home. I wonder if knowing he had such a historically significant ancestor compensated in some way for the absence of his father in his life. It may not be so much that his father was cold although he has been described as highly critical. Mostly he was completely absent from the boy?s childhood and youth and then he died of syphilis.

Actually both parents are absent and Winston and his brother are raised by nannies and sent off to boarding schools. Many are born with distant, cold or absent fathers. But Winston has neither mother nor father. A double whammy. But he was tough and apparently able to overcome the lack. It?s ironic or perhaps logical that someone whose youth is characterized by apparently no parental love should go on to become one of the most beloved people of the 20th Century.

Mark wrote:I agree thats a good start but you must know its more complicated than that!

Sure, I agree. Dignity/debility is modified by many other factors. We have to look at the zodiacal state of the planet to judge if it's going to be easy or difficult for the native. But the question was about Mars being "pure" Mars, so I was referring mainly to that.

Hello Yuzuru,

yuzuru wrote: Using a real example, Bill Clinton has a angular mars in a diurnal chart. Besides that mars is in detriment. He seems to have a very accomplished life, besides some sexual scandal and a heart surgery. What would you suggest that mars would have affected him?

I hope no, considering my birth chart

Anyway I don't think that planets against sect don't allow to be famous or have a good life; in my experience mostly they give the sudden loss, scandals, something like that.

In every case it's interesting Mars-Venus rising in Libra with Saturn and Mercury which beheld them: it's the classical combination which makes people inclined to sex, with Mercury making their business public,

margherita

~Kent~ wrote: It?s ironic or perhaps logical that someone whose youth is characterized by apparently no parental love should go on to become one of the most beloved people of the 20th Century.

Or simply resonant of how this placement is regarded as inclining someone to desperately seek popularity, the trine to Mars may have provided him with the energy to do something about this fear of insignificance. I imagine when the public presence waned the Black Dog became less tolerable.

A planet essentially dignified works for good and manifests its positive qualities, while its bark is worse than its bite. This holds true for both Saturn and Mars. Remember that without the Saturnian principle of restriction, patience and perseverance none of the great things that made this world go round would have happened! The same with Mars: he provides the energy, drive, enthusiasm and power needed to make it through life. When essentially dignified (as in Aries, Scorpio or Capricorn), its positive nature tends to manifest.

By your description it is logical to conclude from the facts of his life that Churchill must have had an essentially dignified Mars rather than one debilitated in Libra. Am I dense?