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Proven horary discussion – A Missing Ring
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Source for Part of Find is 'The Horary Practitioner' Volume 1, page 15.

Kali
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kali,
Thank you for your reply and I will look at the Part of Find, I never used that one before! I will have a look at the Horary Practioner and I will have a look in Zoller's book on the Parts, pehaps he explains where the formula is coming from.Smile
Tienka
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HelleG



Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

I am new to this forum and to horary but I thought I give it a try anyway before I read what you all have written Very Happy

Querent: Jupiter in rulership in Sagittarius cadent in the 9th.

Moon is not powerful, being peregrine, slow and cadent and opposing Venus, – the quesited. Moon is just leaving an exact opposition – she and her ring were separated. Moon’s next aspects are trine Mars, exalted in Capricorn in the 11th and then square Asc. ruler Jupiter, so at first it looks promising, but then some hindrance shows up and she won’t find it. (I’m not looking at the outer planets.) Moon also crosses Desc. and South Node.

Quesited: 2nd house ruled by Venus, which is also the natural ruler of rings. Venus is exalted in Pisces but is also cadent in the 12th. (Did it go down the drain?) Venus is square Jupiter, which indicates a hindrance - the the ring and the querent will not be reunited.

The 4th is ruled by Mercury, cadent in the 12th, in detriment and fall in Pisces, so it may have been damaged and is in an unsuitable location. Moon and Venus are both fairly close to a cusp, so the ring may be near a boundary.

Her husband is also shown by Mercury and the recent opposition between Mercury and the Moon shows the disagreement between them (did he take it to teach her a lesson?). Mercury is conjunct Venus in the 12th, so there may be a hidden connection between the husband and the ring. Moon is going to cross over the Desc. and the South Node after the square to Jupiter – and I don't know yet what that means but a guess might be that her husband will then reveal to her where it is? Or going from cadent to angular means it will be found?

Now, from the way Deborah presented the case, it sounds like it did get found - but at this point, I'm not able to logic it out. My only guessed are that the husband is involved or that it went down the drain. I haven't learned about time yet, so I'll leave that alone for now.

Fun though!!! Thanks for the opportunity to play.

Very Happy Helle
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Helle,
Yes, Helle, the ring was found. If you read Lilly, he tells us to look at indications of recovery. If you don't have Christian Astrology, Deb's article on lost and found, http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wit.html, could be of help here.
Yes, Mercury is lord of the 7th but also lord of the 4th, indicating the location of the ring. I can tell you that the husband was not iinvolved in the way you suggest:)
Thank you for your reaction!
bye,
Tienka
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope it’s OK to add a few words here Tienka, as I won’t be able to get back to the forum until after the weekend. I tried not to reveal that the ring was found, but I suppose it would have been a poor example if it hadn’t been. I can say that Tienka’s yet-to-be-revealed judgement on this chart is very well reasoned, using the traditional techniques described by Lilly; so I strongly recommend using this chart as a reason to study the relevant passages in Lilly’s work (not my web article because that’s far too abbreviated).

Think of this as the mystery that must be solved, because the clues are really there and someone already came quite close, but there is much more to get out of this yet. It seems a lot of people are focussing mainly on the symbolism of the place of the ring (and some are confessing to ‘guessing’ … which isn’t really the way to go Smile ). Actually, this sort of information is something that presents itself during the course of looking at the vital question, which is – “what is the ‘story’ of this loss (and recovery)?”

For this, look at the movement of the significators. What separates from what? Is the ring separating from the querent (suggesting that it fell or slipped away), or is the querent separating from the ring (suggesting that she moved away from the ring) – in which case, has it been left uncontacted by other planets? (meaning it remains where it was left) [*at this point explore the signification of the place*] or …

… has there since been a new planetary contact or interposition (meaning someone else picked it up)? In this case does the interposing planet suggest signification of a friend or a thief? [*at this point explore the signification of the thief and call the police*] Or is there then an upcoming friendly contact between the interposer and the querent to show the ring was picked up by a friendly person who will bring it back to the querent? [*cancel the police*] If not, what brings the ring back? Does the querent apply to the quesited – meaning she comes upon the ring? [*if so, where?*] or does the quesited apply to the querent, meaning that is ‘turns up again’ by some other means.

If that hasn’t completely confused you then its time to go back to Lilly (first he will break you, but then he will make you … ) Just remember that the symbolism of place needs to be wrapped around the story of the loss, as discovered through this kind of analysis. The most interesting thing is then to look at the timing, because timing is the icing and it has been my experience that there is always something relevant between the timing of the question and its resolution. It’s a lot to ask I know, but wouldn’t it be wonderful if someone could tell us “who? where? how?” and also “when?”, before the mystery is fully revealed. This level of detail requires a lot of practice, which is the reason why this chart has been published Smile
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the explanation , Deb ! Smile

Now, let me be a good student, and try to make use of your clues.

Moon is separating from Venus by opposition, so it is the querent that was unkowingly moving away from the ring (that was hidden from sight). Moon is still very much within orb of perfect opposition in the chart (only 4 minutes of arc away), suggesting the ring is still with her, but about to be abandoned and left behind soon.

I guess the querent had the ring hidden inside something she was in contact with , but soon to move away from.

Venus applies to square Jupiter and Moon applies to trine Mars. Jupiter and Mars are querent while Moon and Venus also co-signify the ring. in both cases we have 5 time units, so I guess the ring will magically reappear in 5 days or weeks. Confused
Since Uranus is so close to the asc one could guess (not again ! guessing? Shocked ) the ring was lost by accident (distraction) and is to be found by surprise .

Anyway, following further instructions, one could note that Mars applies to Jupiter's antiscia and will perfect the "hidden conjuction" sometime before the Venus/Jupiter aspect perfects (before resolution), while Moon applies to square Jupiter after trining the MALEFIC Mars, which is exalted in the friendly 11th house, in Jupiter's fall and Moon's detriment. Might this Mars be a false friend (hehe, hubbie's secret mistress Secret ) that was somehow involved in the whole affair?

I guess my imagination has just started running wild again... oops
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:
With Moon just leaving Venus and Mercury Lord of 4th conj Venus it's safe to say the ring is in the room where she last touched it, the kitchen near the sink. Venus symbolizes clothing and logically I think she put the ring in her apron and then taking off the apron and putting it in a drawer or hanging on a hook in a pantry near the kitchen.

Number of degrees between Moon and Mars is 4.39 degrees. Between Venus and Mars is just about the same. Because all the planets are quick in motion except Moon I'm going to say it is resolved with hours of horary time.

Kali
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

p.s. With Mercury in Virgo conj Venus "look in a place of Pictures, Carving or Books, or a place of Corn, and chiefly in Virgo." CA 353

Kali
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,
Yes, Deb, thank you for your suggestions.
Quote:
[so I strongly recommend using this chart as a reason to study the relevant passages in Lilly’s work (not my web article because that’s far too abbreviated).]

It was not my intention to leave Lilly out, Deb, but I was not sure if Helle had CA. If not, the article could be of some help Smile
AquaStella, you wrote that Mars is also the querent, is that based on the fact that Mars rules the intercepted sign in the first? I didn't look at Mars in that way, but perhaps you are right. And yes, I agree with your reasoning about a magical appearance, based on the movement of Venus and the Moon. The time frame is still a mystery to me. At the time, I thought it would be hard to find and that it ould take some time, but I had no idea of when the ring would be found. But I am sure after revealing the outcome and the time of the recovery, some of you will reveal that mystery!
Hi Kali,
Mercury is in Pisces, not Virgo, and is in detriment and fall: how would you judge that opposed to being in Virgo?
Love to hear your thoughts on that!

bye,
Tienka
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Cindy*



Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 2
Location: USA

Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings,

I am new at this, totally!

And I am presently stuck on a few passages in Christian Astrology that appear to mean the ring was stolen by a man and a woman acting together.

Querent: L1/ Jupiter, in dignity
Ring: L2 /Venus, in dignity
Thieves: Mercury and Mars. L7/Mercury, peregrine; Mercury can also signify a thief. Testimonies from Lilly for more than one thief include: Significator in a double-bodied and fruitful sign (Mercury is in Pisces); lord of the ascendant in a male sign (Jupiter is in Sagittarius) and lord of the hour in a female sign (Venus is in Pisces), indicates thieves are a man and woman and, of the two, the planet to whom the Moon applies is the "principle actor" (CA, p. 339). Moon applies to Mars.

For thief #1, Mars: Venus (ring) applies to Mars; also Moon translates Venus to Mars.
For thief #2, Mercury: Mercury applies to Venus; also Moon previously translated Mercury to Venus.

It seems like a closed circuit, they got the ring. Mars' speed is very fast, near maximum. As instigator, Mars-thief acted swiftly with Mercury to surround and steal the ring. And they still have it. Mercury does not apply to any other planet (in real time, it stations retrograde at 10Pisces), therefore keeps the ring, for now. Mars does not apply to any other planet.

Moon's opposition to Venus is less than 6 minutes of arc. It is not yet a separation, rather it remains a perfection (CA, p. 110). Again, thief still has the ring, possibly on her finger (4th house is Gemini, hands).

Arguments for recovery: Venus is in its exaltation and (after its application to Mars) it applies to Jupiter (Querent) by square with reception, also applies to ascendant; Moon translates Venus to Jupiter (although to Mars first) and then to ascendant by opposition. Over and over, the paths for Venus lead the ring to Querent, although with some difficulty.

How? After Venus-ring separates from Mars (via either Moon translation or Venus applies!) it goes to Jupiter (Querent). Moon might signify police, it is in the 6th (police), rules 6th and is received by Venus (in her triplicity and term). The Moon delivers ring to Querent by translation. At first I was reluctant to view Mars as thief because it is in the sign of its exaltation and Lilly often refers to peregrine planets for thieves. Instead I thought Mars might represent a figure of authority such as a police officer involved in the recovery. Could it act as both?

When? The timing of Moon or Venus to Jupiter or to ascendant. Between five and nine 'somethings'. I'm working on it.

Lucky comes to mind but I cannot support that astrologically outside of that the benefics are everywhere in this chart, both dignified and with reception, not only sign and exaltation, but terms, triplicities, PoF ruler, and lady of the hour, too. Is it nutty of me or has anyone noticed the many double-doubles in this chart? Beginning with the double-bodied and mutable angles and then aspects for important significators have a double reinforcing it. Circular and symmetrical are Venus qualities. Or else it's just me going round in circles with this chart!

Cindy
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cindy,
Thank you for your delineation. I think the seperating aspects of the Moon are showing that the ring was not stolen: the Moon is seperating from Venus, no other contact was made to Venus. Venus is a benefic and Venus is not seperating from the lord of the 7th, debelitated Mercury, nor seperating from the lord of the 8th, Mars ( posseions of the enemy/thief), or the other malefic Saturn.
If the ring was stolen, than we would expect a connection between the missing item and the significator of the thief.
That is not the case here. The placement of Venus, the ring, in the sign of the ascendant, suggests that the ring is still in the environment of the querent, again an argument that the ring was not stolen.
Would you agree?
Tienka
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, I mixed up the signs from another chart I was studying. Debilitated Mercury is in Jupiter's detriment and could show her mind being distracted leading her to lose the ring.

A planet in it's fall may show the ring "has no proper section", and similar to being "confined to a tight place" (Al Biruni). In detriment shows the ring is obstructed. Pieces can show floors and shoes. Maybe look in a bookcase or file cabinet in the bottom drawer or around shoes.

Lilly says Mercury in a "common sign shows it is in a little Cell within another Chamber." CA 353 This makes me think she put it into a container then set it inside a cabinet or drawer. With Venus moving toward Mars and Jupiter, the ring will appear while going about her business.

kali
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Cindy*



Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tienka,

I appreciate your feedback! Horary is new to me and I am grateful for the opportunity to try out the techniques in CA on these practice charts. Somewhere I missed a simple overview such as you described or mixed up one of Lilly's many neither-nor's Lala Happy . Well, back to the book...

Thanks again
Cindy
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kali,
I am not sure if we should look at Mercury this way:
Quote:
Debilitated Mercury is in Jupiter's detriment and could show her mind being distracted leading her to lose the ring.

Mercury is the significator of the 4th and according to Lilly:"“The 4th house and his lord shall signify the place where it is laid, put or done, or conveyed to, and is in it at the time. “CA p. 332
So to me, the ruler of the 4th being in detriment and fall, signifies an unusual place. I am not sure if Mercury in this case shows the mind of the querent? But perhaps you are right, because the last aspect of the Moon, co-significator of the querent, seperating from Venus, the ring, shows the same in a way:querent"lay it down and forget it, and so it was lost."CA p. 333
I love your next statement:
Quote:
With Venus moving toward Mars and Jupiter, the ring will appear while going about her business.

I did not look at the chart in that way, but it is very describing! Smile
thanks!
Tienka
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tienka Atema wrote:
Hi Kali,
I am not sure if we should look at Mercury this way:
Quote:
Debilitated Mercury is in Jupiter's detriment and could show her mind being distracted leading her to lose the ring.

Mercury is the significator of the 4th and according to Lilly:"“The 4th house and his lord shall signify the place where it is laid, put or done, or conveyed to, and is in it at the time. “CA p. 332
So to me, the ruler of the 4th being in detriment and fall, signifies an unusual place. I am not sure if Mercury in this case shows the mind of the querent? But perhaps you are right, because the last aspect of the Moon, co-significator of the querent, seperating from Venus, the ring, shows the same in a way:querent"lay it down and forget it, and so it was lost."CA p. 333


You made me dig a little further into this matter. Mercury also rules the 3rd which can signify visitors. (Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson) And Deb says in her book 'House Rulerships in Practice' it rules "languages, mobility skills and self-expression." So the idea here is Mercury (natural ruler of the mind) is debilitated maybe causing her energies to be scattered due to all her visitors. Mind and mobility a bit off. Also see that Moon leaves Mercury and transfers it's energies to Venus and she doesn't think about what her body is doing in regards to the ring.

That's how I see the story playing out.

Quote:
I love your next statement:
Quote:
With Venus moving toward Mars and Jupiter, the ring will appear while going about her business.

I did not look at the chart in that way, but it is very describing! Smile
thanks!
Tienka


Listening to Deb's clues and seeing which ones are supported by the planets movements helped big time.

kali
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