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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Proven horary discussion – A Missing Ring
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Proven horary discussion – A Missing Ring Reply with quote

In response to my recent plea for horaries with known outcomes, Tienka Atema has sent in a chart judgement for a missing ring query. I really enjoyed working on this because the full judgement has such a lot of clarity to it, but I don’t want to give anything away at the beginning except to say that this is a good chart against which to test your understanding of how to judge a horary relating to missing objects.

I have placed an image of the chart in this thread below, with the introductory details. However, if you follow this link - http://horary.co/charts/missingthings1.html - you will see where the full judgement will eventually be published (on 23rd August), and you will also be able to download a PDF horary worksheet which gives the planetary dignities and speeds, hour rulerships, fixed star and antiscia contacts, and other details that you might find useful to consider.

I have designed that page within a farily neutral setting so that other groups can use this chart if they want to, or even submit charts if they want to, and so that this chart judgement will form the first in an online database of ‘practise’ horaries, which horary students will be able to refer to in the future.

Now back to the details of this chart:



The introductory details that you need to know are these :

Tienka wrote:
The querent had inherited a precious ring from her mother-in-law, which she kept for special occasions. She remembered that the last time she had seen the ring was a little under a month beforehand, on January 12th 2007, the day she had thrown a housewarming party.

Because she was busy with the preparations, she remembered that she had placed the ring on the kitchen sink, with the intention to put it back on afterwards to wear at the party.

Her husband had told her to be careful: that this was not a good place to leave the ring behind … She then forgot about the ring and later could not remember anything about what had happened. After the party, she noticed the ring was missing and she searched the house, but the ring was nowhere to be found.


I had a little play with this chart too, before marking it up, and decided to have two attempts to identify, not only whether the ring would be recovered and where it was, but also the date and time of the recovery. I’ll tell you that I failed, at least on some of those details – but I don’t mind because I learned something in the process. The questions I think members should be asking are: does the signification fit the scenario described, and how?; will the ring be found, if so, why (what is indicating recovery) ? – and obviously, if it will be found: where? and when?

Tienka has agreed to answer questions that arise and because I know the outcome I won’t be contributing to this thread, other than as a moderator. But the last point I want to make, with this first chart, is that I hope members don’t treat it as a ‘mystery challenge’ so much as an opportunity to experiment, discuss, share, make mistakes, swap ideas, and ultimately discover reliable principles. By all means place your judgements here and dare to have a go at the prediction of the outcome; but please don’t feel that this is all about being right or wrong in the outcome of this chart, because it’s not. It’s about what you’ll learn from this chart so that you’ll be able to do it better when it really matters with a chart of your own.

Thanks again Tienka, for giving us your chart to work on !
Deb


Last edited by Deb on Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
I will take the ring as venus, ruler of 2nd house and fortuna.

Although the ring may be close to her belongings as it is disposited by Jupiter, Venus is in the 12th house, so mostly likely is out of sight and hidden.

Venus is in a sign of water so I would say to querent to first look at the sink.

If there wasn´t anything in the sink, I would look at the husband. Lost things are usually where they should be, or with the husband, the children, the dog, etc. Mercury is husband´s significator and is conj. venus.

I can´t figure it out why venus is opposed by the moon. Maybe the ring is somewhere just opposite something lunar. Like "in the kitchen, opposing the fridge".

If none of these helps, I would suggest a search in every place that were "moist" or watery in nature, including the marital bed and the intimate places in the house. She should look in the direction north from the place she begins the search.

I don´t believe in timing the recovery of lost objects. I know a lot of people do this, but to me I don´t see the reasoning as solid, you are doing the horary to find the object, it will not appear all by itself (unless we are talking about a lost cat).
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Last edited by yuzuru on Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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al-Nablusi



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 44

Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After going through Griffin and Lilly's rules for theft, I concluded that the item was not stolen.

Querent: Jupiter
Ring: Venus, Pof

The Moon's application to its own dispositor is an argument for recovery. The aspect is an opposition taking place between the 12th and the 6th house. Both planets are cadent, Mercury is also in detriment and fall. There's no mutual reception.

The object was found (additional testimony: ruler of the AC in its own domicile), but it could not be recovered, or it was damaged so its value decreased.

The cusp of the second house is afflicted by an applying square from Neptune in the 12 (lots of deep water, water that cannot be seen, of through which one cannot see) and rx Saturn in the 6th - was the ring dropped down the drain or in a watery place? This is an argument for loss or damage. However, I would rather say damage, considered that both Venus and Jupiter are strong.

The item was near the querent (Venus disposed by Jupiter, plus 2nd ruler within 30° ASC). Agree with Yuzuru, the item must have been hidden away or somehow made invisible.

Absolutely no idea about timing,

AN
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yuzuru and AN,
Thank you for your comments! And like you, I do find timing difficult, especailly with lost objects.
Yuzuru: she did look at the sink and several other places, but she could not find the ring. It was not in the husband's possession either.
AN, you wrote:

[quote]The Moon's application to its own dispositor is an argument for recovery.
But the Moon is seperating from Mercury, not applying in the chart?
regards,
Tienka
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al-Nablusi



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 44

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tienka,

thanks for pointing out this mistake.

The Moon translated Mercury's light to Venus and is now separing from Venus and applying to Uranus by opposition (if you count trans-saturnals) or to Mars by trine (if you work only with traditional planets). Both planets are infortunes, both are applying to the ascendant and both receive Venus application.

This could mean the proverbial dishonest person who finds the lost object and keeps it.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wit.html. I would modulate this rule and say that a person - not necessarily dishonest (Mars strong in 11 and soft aspects involved) removed the ring from the kitchen sink. This is the only amendment to my delineation.

I still consider the opposition between 6th and 12th to be important, and to signal damages or difficulties in recovering the ring after it was moved from one place to another (Moon's separing aspect etc). The question now becomes: how was the ring moved/misplaced? Uranus lets me think about sudden, uncoordinated movements - something you do without giving it a thought

AN
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, AN, and the Moon, seperating from Venus is part of the story if we follow Lilly. Smile

It is a bit too early to reveal more, I do hope you don't mind!
Tienka
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al-Nablusi



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 44

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tienka,

I got this, but at the same time the Moon-Venus separation is something I cannot fully understand. I should be spending more time on this chart, but these days the call of the swimming pool, the bike and the running track is stronger - alas, Mars-Pluto aspects ; )

No, seriously, I will be reflecting on your suggestion, but at this point I think it would be unfair to change my delineation

AN
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi AN,
I understand the call of the swimming pool or other activities, AN:)
But as Deb pointed out, this thread is more about learning from each other: which techniques do you favor or which techniques do you use to pin down the location, for instance?
I would love to discuss them and read your point of view and, of course, hope to hear/read what others think.
Have a lovely weekend
Smile
Tienka
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Missing ring is Venus (l2), Pof, its dispositor (Venus again), Saturn (aka lord of the rings). Pof is intercepted in the 7th in Libra, so the ring might be "hemmed in" and hidden inside something (pocket? container/ box, bag? drawer? ) direction west or with hubbie. Pof is conjunct Asc's antiscia, and still applying to it, so it might be hidden on querent's body or in her cloths. The application means it is to be found soon.

Venus is exalted (up high?) in Pisces in the 12th house, sorrounded by Mercury and Uranus. It could be hidden inside something , either low or wet, or in the laundry, or washing machine. Pisces is a mutable sign, pointing, again , to a container.

Moon L6 in the 6th is opp Venus and just separated a few minutes of arc ago, so still within orb of being in contact with it before separation. 6th house may point to a pet, a servant, a drawer, a box, an office? Could it be the cleaning lady? the plumber? a fish in the aquarium who had swallowed it? Saturn Rx. (shall return) is intercepted in Leo (its detriment) in the 6th, once again, suggesting the ring is intercepted and hemmed inside something, maybe damaged. Could it have fallen into the sink hole?

Moon l6 translates Venus' light to Mars, co ruler of 1st (Aries is intercepted in the 1st) and lord of 8th. Might be a "servant" or pet will find and return it?

Was it inside a pocket in the querent's cloths, in the laundry basket, for example?

Just guessing Confused
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello and thank you Deb and Tienka for providing this exercise for discussion and study. Here's my take.

Deb asked if signification fit the scenario. Jupiter in Sagitarius signifies the querent in the 9th house. Moon in Virgo signifies querent and also lost ring. Mercury is ruler of 7th and 4th house representing husband's mother's ring, family nostalgia. Second house ruler Venus in Pieces disposed by Jupiter (querent) and shows a valuable piece of jewelry. Also, Moon's last aspect was an opposition separating from Venus showing the querent last seeing the ring.

Will the ring be found? Yes. The Lord of term of Moon, Mercury and Lord of 2nd house are applying a trine to Lord of Asc. Jupiter. CA 355 Also, with Mercury and Venus are in the same house.

Where is it? First the reason I believe it was lost is shown by Jupiter being in his own house. This could show that after her husband reminded her to be careful, the querent took "excess care of governing of things" CA 321 and put the rings where she later could not easily recall. Misplaced items can be located by where the 4th house ruler is sitting. Here Mercury Lord of 4th is in Pisces in the 12th house conj. Venus. Lilly says Venus signifies the place of the Seat of a woman, or Bed or Clothes, or where women are most conversant. CA 352 That's the kitchen. :-)

Moon in Virgo describes closets, pantries, groceries. Ruler Mercury in Pisces in the 12th and the strong water sign in 12th I'd say the ring was put in a secluded 'Chamber' near water fixtures, bathroom, laundry room, kitchen.

When? With Venus moving fast and applying a trine to Jupiter, I'd say it was located in 5 hours/days of the horary.

Now for a beer!

Kali
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi AquaStella and Kali,
Thank you for your participation!
AquaStella: I never use the applying POF to a point. Do you have a classical source, so I can look it up? Interesting to see that you use the exaltion of Venus as an indication of up high. Never came across that one Smile
Kali: the delineation of Jupiter in its own house is interesting. My thoughts were that the querent, not me, by the way, was telling the truth and her story can be trusted. I looked at the seperating aspects of Jupiter and the Moon. To me, they showed why and how the ring went missing. But the outcome is the same!

Tienka
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I never use the applying POF to a point. Do you have a classical source, so I can look it up


Hmmm... not really. I must have been half asleep when I wrote this. Sorry.
Embarassed

Quote:
I looked at the seperating aspects of Jupiter and the Moon. To me, they showed why and how the ring went missing. But the outcome is the same!


Moon separating from Venus and Jupiter from intercepted Sun in the 12th? Was it a golden ring to be signified by Sun?
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Carol



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 210

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Moon in Virgo in the 6th making a trine to dignified Mars in Cap. in the 11th, I'll go out on a limb and say that after the ring went down the drain (assuming it did), maybe a competent friend (llth) and/or plumber (Mars ruling the 8th) took the pipes apart, found the ring, and was able to retrieve it and give it back to the querent in good shape (exalted Venus/ring square dignified Jupiter/querent and Venus received by Jupiter in his domicile).
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Tienka Atema



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 97
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, AquaStella, it was a golden ring. But I took the Sun as the significator of the husband and the seperating sextile as an indication that she did listen to her husband and replaced the ring herself, which is shown by the seperating aspect of the Moon to the significator of the ring, Venus.
The Moon can be a co-significator for both the ring and the querent.
Carol: no, the ring did not went down the drain and was found by the querent!
Tienka
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kali



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tienka: My friend lost her rings and had a very similar aspect of ruler being in house of Jupiter and she later found them where she buried them, deep in her dresser where she never put them before.

Her Moon was in Virgo too. So another guess would be with Moon leaving Venus in 12th in Pieces it might be in the bathroom next to the bedroom inside a container put inside a drawer or closet.

Another sign that ring would return to her is Moon aspecting Mars co-ruler of 1st (found by her) and 8th house of legacies. Part of Find (Moon + 4th cusp - 1st ruler) = 19'48 Pieces in the 1st showing the ring will be found by querent.

Moon trines Mars in 2 hrs so I see that as a strong possibility.

Kali
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