skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

The Hermetic Lots
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
librafeng2010



Joined: 13 Aug 2010
Posts: 22
Location: china

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello,Mr Schmidt.

i am from china,a Hellenistic Astrology learner.

always enjoy your articles and posts about Hellenistic Astrology.

so according to your comments about valens' lot of eros and Necessity.

whether i can deduce that:lot of Victory is jupiter's lot of fortune;Lot of Nemesis is saturn's lot of spirit?

Thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stellarium



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 97

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Schmidt wrote:
By similar reasoning, I find the Lot of Necessity to be Fortune’s Lot of Fortune, or a Lot of Fortune cast out from the primary Lot of Fortune rather than the Hour-marker, and I have no trouble seeing Necessity as a further specification of Fortune.

This is what I mean by conceptual consistency in a system.

Surely this analysis begins to cast some light on the remark of Rhetorius in the ‘Tabular Examination’ that the lord of Basis—Basis being either Eros or Necessity in any given chart--indicates the ‘foundation of Fortune’ in the native’s life. I notice that the Lot of Basis is being discussed on another thread.


Robert Schmidt

If Necessity is a further specification of fortune, then do you regard it as the Lot of Basis? I've been seeing good results with Valen's Lot of Basis which is the shortest arc between Fortune and Spirit projected from the Ascendant regardeless of diurnal or nocturnal sect.

I think that the best way to settle the disagreement over who is correct or incorrect with regard to Eros and Necessity would be to provide real life examples (preferably of well known people with AA data) comparing both differing viewpoints.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that the best way to settle the disagreement over who is correct or incorrect with regard to Eros and Necessity would be to provide real life examples (preferably of well known people with AA data) comparing both differing viewpoints.


Unfortunately I think the interpretation would be too far subjective to be determined that way. Since the discussion concerns the translation of meaning in ancient texts surely it is better to explore the real life examples of the ancient astrologers - looking at the example charts of Valens, for example, to see how he applied the principle in practice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 995
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
I think that the best way to settle the disagreement over who is correct or incorrect with regard to Eros and Necessity would be to provide real life examples (preferably of well known people with AA data) comparing both differing viewpoints.


Unfortunately I think the interpretation would be too far subjective to be determined that way. Since the discussion concerns the translation of meaning in ancient texts surely it is better to explore the real life examples of the ancient astrologers - looking at the example charts of Valens, for example, to see how he applied the principle in practice.


Unfortunately the chart examples in Valens typically do not give a lot of information on the surface, but I agree that this kind of thing would quickly degenerate into the typical "it works for me" mantra solving nothing.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert Schmidt



Joined: 08 Aug 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Cumberland, Maryland USA

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Chris Brennan:

I must say that I am rather astounded that you continue to cling to your position so doggedly. Eros is not a primary signification of the Sun; it is a primary signification of Venus. Daimon and the soul are primary signification of the Sun. This much is obvious from Valens.

The purpose of the lots is to single out meanings from more general significators such as the planets so that these more specific meanings can be studied in isolation in the chart. The calculation of the Lot of Spirit singles out Daimon, which relates to the soul in action. Eros is a further specification of Daimon as the purposive soul, insofar as Eros is one of the faculties (and perhaps the primary one) that moves us to action. You cannot get to Eros without the mediation of Daimon, which is why Eros is derived from the two primary lots. This is equally true of the Hermetic lot of Eros. This much should also be obvious.

You do not seem to have understood my earlier algebraic argument. My interpretation of the algorithm for Eros results in Spirit’s Lot of Spirit both by day and by night. Similarly, Necessity gives Fortune’s Lot of Fortune both by day and night. This is simply the result of the calculation; it is not some artifact of the algebra. Moreover, it brings out the symbolic significance of Eros and Necessity.

Your interpretation results in Spirit’s Lot of Spirit by day and Spirit’s Lot of Fortune by night. This means that there must be a colossal difference in meaning between a diurnal and a nocturnal Eros or Necessity.

Which brings me to what I believe is really the central point in all this discussion. You have stated that you believe that there is a fundamental difference in meaning between the diurnal and nocturnal versions of the same lot, to the extent that they need to be delineated differently. To refer to the example you used in your paper, a person with a diurnal Spirit is supposedly more active in his work in the sense that he generates it out of himself; someone with a nocturnal Spirit is supposedly more passive in the sense that he receives and takes on the work of others. You have also said that this principle applies generally to all lots.

First of all, I know of no textual evidence for your claim. In Hellenistic astrology, the types of distinctions you are trying to make do not belong to the lots themselves insofar as they are nocturnal or diurnal, but rather are brought out in the analysis of the position of the lot itself, planets that bonify or maltreat this place, and the condition of the ruler.

Secondly, do you not see that if all diurnal lots have a different character than all nocturnal lots, then you are dividing humanity into two broad categories which depend simply on whether the chart is diurnal or nocturnal? Such a kind of astrology would be far cruder and coarser than Sun-sign astrology, which at least has twelve categories.

Most of your recent responses to my arguments have been based on this underlying assumption of yours.

Robert Schmidt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Unfortunately the chart examples in Valens typically do not give a lot of information on the surface,

If that is the case, then isn’t this now a purely theoretical argument which cannot be demonstrated to be correct one way or the other? In which case the only way for the discussion to end is at an impasse? Two very seriously considered points of view have been put forward, but with fundamental disageements and no way for one to disprove the other – at this time. Sometimes it is best to accept that the thread has reached that point, and where there are no bridges between the arguments, its more constructive to let the arguments stand until there *are* new developments. I’m wary of the fact that both Chris and Robert have committed a lot to this thread, and have made impressive arguments that have been explained very openly, demonstrating their expertise, and allowing others who are interested to know how to follow up their inclinations.

My own feeling is that after seven pages of very intense discussion, the main participants should consider whether further debate on this same point is going to lead to a constructive realisation at this time, or whether it might be a good idea for them to take a break and let some other input develop, before coming back in with some answers to questions or new angles for discussion, if they wish.

Deb

Though it has to be said that this is quite an impressive level of development for a thread that was started as an aside to another topic! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3508
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm taking the liberty of locking the thread and the opportunity for thanking everyone for an interesting and important discussion.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Page 7 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated