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Mark
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you think that Zoller´s thinking has something to do with the " psychological stuff" as the modern astrology has, you´re pretty wrong, my dear friend. The more I read his course the more I see he is an alchimist, a magician, a real scholar in Judaism, Hermeticism, Cabala, Sabeanism, etc: a philosopher to define him in few words. |
Knowing Margherita from the forum discussions over the years I can assure you that is not what she meant. Her comments were directed to modern astrology which she, like many of us, has studied and moved away from after finding it unsatisfactory. I think she just has a particular passion for renaissance astrology. Remember she is Italian and this was arguably Italy's golden cultural and astrological age.  However, as you will see from her blog her interest spans throughout the tradition. She is a real fan of Ben Dykes in case you hadn't noticed. Frankly who isn't?
Robert Zoller is clearly a very sincere man with a deep spiritual understanding underpinning his approach to the craft. Its a shame that his health and other issues have prevented him teaching more students in the last few years. Still, he has already given more to astrology than most of can dream of in a lifetime. 
Good luck on your book. It sounds like Brazil is badly in need of some good material on traditional astrology. Are you networking with any other Brazilian members here on skyscript? For example PFN or Yuzuru (no longer in Brazil but a mine of information!)
Sorry I got a bit carried away earlier. Fixed stars tends to do that to me.
Mark
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Clelia Romano
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 133
Location: São Paulo
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Hello Mark:
| Quote: | Interesting a Scorpio Moon too eh? What a coincidence. Me too. Margherita is a Scorpio Moon too as I recall.  |
I had an idea that Margherita was a Scorpio Moon! But I was really curious to know about your chart, because we raised the same question almost at the same time, even if you are much more advanced in the fixed stars´study than me.
This is a real coincidence: the only person I ever knew to have the Moon at the same degree I have was ...my Mom! 
| Quote: | I am rather fond of Rigel Kentaurus. Although I confess I have never actually seen it! When I first studied fixed stars-Ebertin, Robson etc I was pleased to see my natal Moon was on this star by zodiacal projection ie around 28-29 Scorpio. I only learned later the astronomical reality that its declination was -61 south of the equator it was never visible in my location.  |
Don´t be sad;-) Perhaps she( the star) is of any help with my Moon.
| Quote: | | Still, this constellation is part of the classical myth of Chiron. When talking to groups of modern astrologers on fixed stars I always say that if they want to see the 'real' Chiron they should go to a location where they can watch the constellation of Centaurus. Placed there by Zeus no less! |
Well, well ...Now I´m feeling in heavens 
| Quote: | | I can say I´m a low IQ in Maths: I always was. I think this is a real challenge to understand maths language. |
| Quote: | | You too? I would certainly have been useless in the old days before astrological software |
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I learned how to cast a chart manually when computers for domestic use were unavaiable, so I´m not properly a dumb, but I used to make some " little mistakes" counting, with clamsy results, like: " Hi, sis, I did your chart, and you are a Gemini rising! And after a day: "sorry,sister, I did a little mistake, as a matter of fact you´re a Leo rising. And so on...
Thank Gods in those times my clients were family!
| Quote: | | It seems we both fit that old saying of 'the blind leading the blind'. |
Come on Mark, do not underestimate yourself!
Gosh, I own you a great time laughting!
| Quote: | | Thankfully, I realised I had an old PM exchange with Eddy on the issue you raised about converting star positions from RA/Declination to longitude/latitude. He didn't seem to think it was a problem. Whether you start off in RA or ecliptical longitude it leads to the same result if you convert back again. |
For him it is easy, for me it is not so easy;-) But I believe you that the question is not so important !
| Quote: | He stated he agreed with this post from another member:
| Quote: | Johannes wrote:
Once a star's position is determined it can be converted in ecliptical or equatorial measurement or contrariwise. But the position itself, projected on the Ecliptic and measured in ecliptical longitude and latitude remains always the same even then when calculated first to right ascension and then to ecliptical longitude - or vice versa. Both systems lead you to the same star! |
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| Quote: | | Personally, I think Bernadette Brady should have explained her point better. Its clear several people like you and I have come away thinking the reforms of Regiomontanus altered the ecliptical longitude of the fixed stars. Plus English is my first language! As I suggested the real reason I think for the discrepancy between the tables of Ptolemy and modern ones was simply a calculation error in the Almagest. The point is totally academic to Brady though as she rejects zodiacal projection anyway!!! I suspect its a Trojan Horse argument on her part. |
You are right: that kind of reasoning was not necessary and lead us to wrong paths. I was luck to find persons like you, Margherita, Ed, to clarify my ideas.
| Quote: | You probably know this but to recap there are several techniques for working with fixed stars. For example:
1 Paranatellonta-constellation or individual star co-rising together with a portion of the ecliptic (a decan) or a degree (in mundo or zodiacal projection?)
2 In mundo square/opposition of star to planet on angles (Brady's 'paran')
3 Zodiacal projection of star to the ecliptic
4 conjunction of stars to angles/planets by celestial declination |
I had not the idea so clear: thank you for telling me!
I have to say that you gave much of yourself to this discussion: I really appreciated that!
best wishes
Clélia
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I had an idea that Margherita was a Scorpio Moon! But I was really curious to know about your chart, because we raised the same question almost at the same time, even if you are much more advanced in the fixed stars´study than me. |
It seems all three of us have the Moon in close conjunction.
I guess its just that fixed stars are a passion of mine. I really like the fact they connect us to the ancient visual origins of astrology and and its myths. If we stripped away the whole astrological tradition and started from scratch any new astrology would need to incorporate fixed stars. You find them in any astrological tradition that has existed on earth. Can we really say the same of lots, antiscia, sect, or even houses?
Still inspired by what you, Robert Hand, Joseph Crane, Chris Brennan, Steven Birchfield and Dorian Greenbaum have written on the lots I have been working with the lot of Spirit for the first time. Very useful! I still find derived lots based on other lots (the Hermetic lots) a bit hard to accept but I am keeping an open mind on the subject.
I perhaps exagerrated a bit. I did do manual chart calculation in the days before PC's. However, it was a cumbersome process. I do welcome software that can save us time on calculation and give more time to reflect on the phiolosophy underlining our astrology. Still, I think its useful to do manual calculation when you are learning.
Regards
Mark
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margherita
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: | | Quote: | | I had an idea that Margherita was a Scorpio Moon! But I was really curious to know about your chart, because we raised the same question almost at the same time, even if you are much more advanced in the fixed stars´study than me. |
It seems all three of us have the Moon in close conjunction.
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Moreover, should the Moon herself actually occupy the place regulating the employment....she will then produce ...if in Virgo or Scorpio, magicians, astrologers, and oracular persons, possessing prescience
margherita
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Margherita,
| Quote: | | Moreover, should the Moon herself actually occupy the place regulating the employment....she will then produce ...if in Virgo or Scorpio, magicians, astrologers, and oracular persons, possessing prescience |
Who is the quote from?
Mark
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margherita
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: |
Who is the quote from?
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guess
A compilation of astrology books borrowed by an Egyptian library,
margherita
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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mmmm Well I know you are fond of Cardano. However, the style sounds more ancient. Ptolemy is another astrologer you obviously use a lot. However, it doesn't sound his style at all. Rhetorius?
Mark
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A compilation of astrology books borrowed by an Egyptian library. |
ooooh you show off! Ah well I was close as Rhetorius was an Egyptian.
I am intrigued. Is this the name of the source text? Is this from the remaining astrological material in Demotic script under the Romans? I believe Otto Neugebauer translated a lots of these texts. I have always thought they would be very interesting and possibly fill in a few missing pieces.
I read an interesting article about this material by Micah Ross in Culture and Cosmos (Vol. 11 no 1 and 2 (double issue)-Spring/Summer and Autumn/Winter 2007) a few years ago (an outstanding issue with articles by Robert Hand, Dorian Greenbaum, Guiseppe Bezza and Deborah Houlding amongst others!) . Micah Ross suggested much of this material was a bridge between the Babylonian and Greek traditions. Evidence for this connection comes from the omen literature, planetary epithets and pseudepigraphy of Babylon, Greece and Egypt. There was also an interesting discussion of Demotic terms for the doctrine of lots.
Mark
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margherita
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Your enjoying this aren't you?
I have to go as its a family birthday. One last guess
Varāhamihira?  Roman astrology made it to India so traffic the other way is not impossible. Although the wording sounds too clear to be Indian!
Maybe you have stumbled on an interesting new Skyscript feature? Instead of mystery chart we do mystery text.
Mark
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margherita
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkC wrote: | Your enjoying this aren't you?
Mark |
ah, the bad Scorpio temperament....
Tetrabiblos, IV.4
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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I should have guessed it would be Ptolemy. You quote him all the time.
I thought you were trying something unconventional.
Oh well its back to the Tetrabiblos for me 
Mark
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Clelia Romano
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Mark:
| Quote: | | I guess its just that fixed stars are a passion of mine. I really like the fact they connect us to the ancient visual origins of astrology and and its myths. If we stripped away the whole astrological tradition and started from scratch any new astrology would need to incorporate fixed stars. You find them in any astrological tradition that has existed on earth. Can we really say the same of lots, antiscia, sect, or even houses? |
I agree to the point that they are ancient and used before all the stuff of houses and lots: but they were used with constelations, in the sidereal way. This detail bothers my sense of proportion. 
When I was very young, almost a child, to look at the sky at night used to frighten me: the sky is a powerful archetype.
| Quote: | | Still inspired by what you, Robert Hand, Joseph Crane, Chris Brennan, Steven Birchfield and Dorian Greenbaum have written on the lots I have been working with the lot of Spirit for the first time. Very useful! I still find derived lots based on other lots (the Hermetic lots) a bit hard to accept but I am keeping an open mind on the subject. |
Derivated lots based in other lots? What you meant?
Nice to know you are working with them! The most important Lot is Fortune , after Spirit. But Base, Aquisition and Exaltation are very useful, as well. Nobody used the Lots so well as Greeks did.
Medieval astrology uses too much lots, sometimes the same Greek lot with different names: it´s confusing.
There are too many lots for only seven planets!
| Quote: | | I perhaps exagerrated a bit. I did do manual chart calculation in the days before PC's. However, it was a cumbersome process. I do welcome software that can save us time on calculation and give more time to reflect on the phiolosophy underlining our astrology. Still, I think its useful to do manual calculation when you are learning. |
I agree. People need to know from where the chart came from.
Regards
Clélia
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Mark
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I agree to the point that they are ancient and used before all the stuff of houses and lots: but they were used with constelations, in the sidereal way. This detail bothers my sense of proportion. When I was very young, almost a child, to look at the sky at night used to frighten me: the sky is a powerful archetype. |
Hello Clélia,
Maybe the night sky is more dramatic where you are. In a light polluted Scottish city, with heavy cloud cover much of the year seeing the stars was always awe inspiring when I was lucky enough to get a good view of them as a child.
As I see it traditionally tropical astrology was sidereal! In the sense that stars and constellations were a crucial part of the technique. In any case the use of fixed stars in the west long precedes the notions of tropical vs sidereal astrology. Fixed stars is potentially an area that unites tropical and sidereal astrology. If Aldebaran is rising on the ascendant or on the Moon the influence of the star is the same irrespective of zodiacs.
| Quote: | | Derivated lots based in other lots? What you meant? |
I mean the the 5 'Hermetic Lots' derived from the two core lots ie Lots of Fortune and Spirit. They are described most fully by Paulus Alexandrinus and Olypiodorus. Both Chris Brennan and Dorian Greenbaum have written about them. Joseph Crane also describes them and delineates them in a few charts in his excellent book Astrological Roots: The Hellenistic Legacy.
Dorian Greenbaum wrote about them in the issue of Culture and Cosmos I cited above. Chris Brennan brought out an article in The Tradition on the Hermetic lots in Paulus last year. He has now issued the article free online:
http://www.chrisbrennanastrologer.com/Brennan-Theoretical-Rationale.pdf
The 7 'Hermetic lots' are as follows
1 Lot of Fortune
2 Lot of Spirit
3 Lot of Eros. You calculate it for those born by day from the Lot of Spirit to the degree of Venus and an equal amount from the ascendant, but the reverse for those at night.
4 Lot of Necessity. You will calculate it for those born by day from the degree of Mercury to the Lot of Fortune, and an equal amount from the ascendant, but the reverse for those at night.
5 Lot of Courage, which you will work out from the degree of Mars to the Lot of Fortune, and an equal amount from the ascendant for those born by day, but the reverse for those at night.
6 Lot of Victory. You will count for those born by day from the Lot of Spirit to the degree of Jupiter, and an equal amount from the ascendant, but the reverse for those at night.
7 Lot of Nemesis. You will count for diurnal births from Saturn to the Lot of Fortune, and an equal amount from the ascendant, but by night the reverse.
Note that the Lot of Fortune and the Lot of Spirit are the only Hermetic lots which count from celestial body to celestial body, while the rest of the hermetic lots count from a specific planet to either the Lot of Fortune or the Lot of Spirit, or vice versa.
| Quote: | | Nice to know you are working with them! The most important Lot is Fortune , after Spirit. But Base, Aquisition and Exaltation are very useful, as well. Nobody used the Lots so well as Greeks did. |
I have gone full circle on this issue. I remember readiing a book many years ago by the English astrologer Jeff Mayo 'How to Cast the Natal Chart'. In discussing the part of fortune he presented it as a medieval superstition that could probably be dispensed with in the modern age. It seemed a logical position at the time when the part of fortune was an odd anomaly in the horoscope to me.
However, I find the hellenistic presentation of the lots is far more plausible
and philosophically consistent. Especially with the notion of planetary sect incorporated into it. I have been working with the Lot of Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Place of Acquisition. Haven't used Lot of Base. I think the Arabs did get a bit carried away! The 'Lot of Lentils' they developed sums that up for me.
Mark
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Clelia Romano
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Hello Mark:
| Quote: | | Maybe the night sky is more dramatic where you are. In a light polluted Scottish city, with heavy cloud cover much of the year seeing the stars was always awe inspiring when I was lucky enough to get a good view of them as a child. |
O, I think most people have a romantic idea of Brazil! I live in a kind of city that never sleeps: lot of traffic, violence, pollution...:-(
When I was a child, many years ago, I was able to see the sky from here. But now, we can only see a kind of dust in the night sky.
But there are places outside town, for example Campos de Jordão, a city in the countryside, where you can see the sky so dark and the stars twinkling: no people, only the bugs singing. It is amazing. Out there I feel like the sky is something alive.
| Quote: | | If Aldebaran is rising on the ascendant or on the Moon the influence of the star is the same irrespective of zodiacs |
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Excelent point!!
| Quote: | | Derivated lots based in other lots? What you meant? |
| Quote: | | I mean the the 5 'Hermetic Lots' derived from the two core lots ie Lots of Fortune and Spirit. They are described most fully by Paulus Alexandrinus and Olypiodorus. Both Chris Brennan and Dorian Greenbaum have written about them. Joseph Crane also describes them and delineates them in a few charts in his excellent book Astrological Roots: The Hellenistic Legacy. |
Okay, I was not sure what you was referring to. But only Base is constructed with the 2 Lots, isn´t it?
| Quote: | The 7 'Hermetic lots' are as follows
1 Lot of Fortune
2 Lot of Spirit
3 Lot of Eros. You calculate it for those born by day from the Lot of Spirit to the degree of Venus and an equal amount from the ascendant, but the reverse for those at night.
4 Lot of Necessity. You will calculate it for those born by day from the degree of Mercury to the Lot of Fortune, and an equal amount from the ascendant, but the reverse for those at night.
5 Lot of Courage, which you will work out from the degree of Mars to the Lot of Fortune, and an equal amount from the ascendant for those born by day, but the reverse for those at night.
6 Lot of Victory. You will count for those born by day from the Lot of Spirit to the degree of Jupiter, and an equal amount from the ascendant, but the reverse for those at night.
7 Lot of Nemesis. You will count for diurnal births from Saturn to the Lot of Fortune, and an equal amount from the ascendant, but by night the reverse. |
| Quote: | | I have gone full circle on this issue. I remember readiing a book many years ago by the English astrologer Jeff Mayo 'How to Cast the Natal Chart'. In discussing the part of fortune he presented it as a medieval superstition that could probably be dispensed with in the modern age. It seemed a logical position at the time when the part of fortune was an odd anomaly in the horoscope to me. |
I can say the same!
| Quote: | | However, I find the hellenistic presentation of the lots is far more plausible and philosophically consistent. Especially with the notion of planetary sect incorporated into it. I have been working with the lot of fortune, spirit, exaltation and place of acquisition. Haven't used Lot of Base. I think the Arabs did get a bit carried away! The 'Lot of Lentils' they developed sums that up for me. |
They did it wrong, I agree!
But I use the Lot of Base: it is very important. And you get it ASC+ the smaller distance between Lot of Fortune and Lot of Spirit. It is the base of the chart. If you find it with good aspects, or the dispositor in good celestial state and house, you realize what is maintaining the person alive when sometimes the chart is so difficult.
Another Lot that I think worthy to try is the Lot of father: Valens gave it as ASC+Saturn-Sun (switch it for nocturnal nativities)
An important Part that I only saw in Zoller, quoting Bonatti,( anyway it is Medieval), as far as I know, is the Part of Death. It is sought from Saturn+8th house Cusp –Moon( do not switch it). We use this part to construct an almuten table to bring us to the killing planet. I like this part (may be some Scorpio´s thing?)
As for the Hermetic Lots ( and I have not read Chris Brennan article yet, thanks for the link!) we have to understand their hermetic meaning, before using them.
Bout the Lot of Necessity, for example, I wrote the following in the chapter of Lots in my book:
“ The Lot of Necessity:
By taking into account Saturn and Fortune, being Saturn a malefic and Fortune a representative of unconscious behaviors, this lot shows where is in the chart the point of the potential physical and mental destruction, to delineate it, because Saturn has to do with ignorance as opposed to illumination. This lot is calculated as the Part of those who Rise Suddenly in Medieval astrology since Fortuna is Tyché, the luck that does not depend on voluntary acts and Saturn is the ignorance underlying the lack of preparation of those who reached high levels suddenly, just as a matter of luck. “ END OF QUOTE
best
Clélia
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