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Michael Jackson
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debra wrote:
Like kurgal, I am also wondering about the moon's position. It looks like the jury is going back and forth on this one.


Yes I think so. Of course, that is in the nature of juries, to sway back and forth in their views as the trial progresses. I can see why juries were traditionally given to the Moon (all that flux and flow)!

The Moon/Venus trine (jury in harmony with prosecutor) is the first Moon aspect in the chart, a few minutes away from exact alignment. So that could mean the jury's sympathies were with the prosecutor at the very beginning of the case - possibly they were much impressed by his opening statement? But the next aspect after that one is Moon conjunct descendant (which could mean an early turn in Jackson's favour), followed by a trine to Uranus in the 11th.

This could just be my astrological imagination working over-time, but I am much intrigued by the next aspect after that, the application of the Moon to the Sun at 10 degrees Pisces in the 11th House, by way of trine. The Sun could represent an older man, a friend of Jackson (the 11th), a man of authority and power within the entertainment industry (the Sun rules the 5th House of entertainment), who impresses the jury (moon) greatly, in favour of Jackson.


Last edited by kurgal on Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And of course straight after that, the Moon meets Jackson's significator (Mars at 15 degrees Capricorn), the Moon still in the 7th House, so the jury seems to be quite sympathetic to Jackson, after hearing this older man of authority speak.

(Assuming we can allow a 13 degree orb for an aspect of the Moon).
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay this is getting dangerously close to being a dialogue with myself....haha

but I have just heard about the boy's admission to his teacher that Jackson never touched him, which was a bit of a shock revelation... the pendulum has definitely swung back in Jackson's favour.

I wonder if these favourable developments for Jackson are indicated by the Moon in the 7th House (the defendant's house) and trining all those nice 11th House placements (Venus, Uranus, Sun in Pisces in the 11th).

This site emphasises the 11th House's connection in trial charts with liberty, freedom and release....
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
okay this is getting dangerously close to being a dialogue with myself....haha


Sorry about that – you’d think it would gather more discussion wouldn’t you? I wonder if it’s because we’re all so aware of having prejudices in this case. It seems like Michael Jackson (or at least the image we have of him) has been a part of our lives for so long, there’s a certain willingness to be detached from all these proceedings and just wait and see where they go. At least that’s how I’ve been feeling – it’s a good job I’ve never been called to do jury service.

I haven’t followed any of the news on this case lately, but that shouldn’t be necessary anyway if we’re sticking just to what we see in the chart. I’ve put another link to the chart below so it’s nice and handy on this page.

The contradictory element of this Moon also shows itself in the way it is immediately applying to a friendly aspect of Venus – taken as the prosecution, that should show victory for them; but it does so from the 7th house, suggesting an alignment with the jury and the party that opposes the prosecution (ie, the defence). It’s also wholly disposed by Mars and there’s no reception from Venus to the Moon. There’s no need for reception when there is an application by trine, but the Moon lies in the sign where Venus experiences its detriment. On the other hand, the Moon is in its own sign of fall and where it meets with Mars it encounters its own sign of detriment. I still think there’s a strong indication of a taste of dissatisfaction being left after this case because both the Moon and the 10th house ruler (though angular), seem to be unfortunate. I wonder how what Tom had to say ties into this – we always assume the jury is going to be 12 upright and unprejudiced individuals, but with modern selection methods I’m not sure we can rely on that fact and we should expect to be able to see it in the chart. I think that what you said earlier Kurgal, about the jury’s favour moving from the prosecution to Jackson sounds very feasible, and makes some sense of this contradictory symbolism.

Incidentally, one method to judge who will win in contest charts is to evaluate the strengths of the two main significators. According to Lilly’s table Venus has a score of +14 and Mars has a score of + 20, so on the strength of significators there’s no reason why Jackson shouldn’t come out on top. I also notice that the North Node is conjunct the part of ‘liberty of person’ (given by Al Biruni as Asc + Sun – Mercury).

Venus
MR with Jupiter by sign +5
Own exaltation + 4
Own terms + 2
In 11th + 4
Direct + 4
Swift + 2
Oriental - 2
Combust – 5

Mars:
Own exaltation + 4
Own face +1
In 9th +2
Direct + 4
Swift + 2
Oriental + 2
Free from Sun + 5

In case you haven’t seen it, there is a good article by Christopher Warnock on the site, about astrology and criminal law.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/astrology_law.html

I’d be interested to know – is there any way a deal can be struck in this case, or some reduction of charge; or will it be that Jackson is either exonerated or found guilty of something very serious?
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I’d be interested to know – is there any way a deal can be struck in this case, or some reduction of charge; or will it be that Jackson is either exonerated or found guilty of something very serious?



It's too late for reduction of charges by way of plea-bargaining with the prosecution.

However, Jackson is facing multiple charges in this case - I can't remember precisely how many - so it is quite possible that the jury will acquit on some charges, and convict on others. A few of the charges are relatively small ones, such as supplying an intoxicating substance to a minor (or something along those lines).
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today it was noted that Jay Leno is supposed to testify that the child and his parents attempted to get money from him and that when jay spoke with them the childs story sounded rehearsed. I think that is rather damaging testimony.

giving alcohol to a minor is one thing, to a minor who only has one kidney and under treatment is another. That goes from negligence to endangerment.

I wonder what the jury is hearing and seeing. They seem disposed to see Mars in a higher light, and in this case Mars looks pretty good. I wonder if it doesn't come down more to Venus doesn't have all her ducks in a row? as in, they have enough evidence to convict a normal person perhaps , but not enough to convict one that can afford to seriously fight back? Of course one can also be the highlight and be the bad guy. As in, he is still the focus of all the attention, but perhaps it is negative attention?

Granny
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot wrote:
Today it was noted that Jay Leno is supposed to testify that the child and his parents attempted to get money from him and that when jay spoke with them the childs story sounded rehearsed. I think that is rather damaging testimony. Granny


I didn't know about this. I wonder if he is the man of power and authority I thought I saw in this chart...??
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Cenned



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: New York

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:25 am    Post subject: The Jackson trial Reply with quote

My simple take on the opening-of-trial chart is that the Moon rules the IC, the end-of-the-matter, the verdict, and is applying to aspect Venus, ruler of the prosecution. So, just as the IC-ruler goes to the prosecuter's ruler, so the verdict will go to the prosecution.
Cenned
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: The Jackson trial Reply with quote

Cenned wrote:
My simple take on the opening-of-trial chart is that the Moon rules the IC, the end-of-the-matter, the verdict, and is applying to aspect Venus, ruler of the prosecution. So, just as the IC-ruler goes to the prosecuter's ruler, so the verdict will go to the prosecution.
Cenned


The 10th house, not the 4th, in a legal chart governs the ultimate decision or outcome; the "delivery of justice," and the judgment. This must also include "the verdict" in a criminal case. Is it legitimate to also use the 4th house as "end-of-the-matter" to mean the outcome or verdict? Then we have two houses signifying the same thing. That can't be right.
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Cenned



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: New York

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems my initial thoughts concerning the Verdict were in error as I muddled Verdict with Outcome. I have checked with an excellent article Barbara Koval wrote a few years back, in which she analyzed two previous 'celebrity' trials in the USA, and I reproduce here part of her definitions.

An extract from Barbara Koval: “Courting Justice”. [i]Considerations[/i], XVIII: 1, February-April 2003, reproduced here by permission of the publisher.

[quote][b]House Significations in Court Activity [/b]

1st: The person or event that starts the activity. The prosecutor; the crime; the charge; the plaintiff, the victim.

2nd: The materials in evidence. State's evidence; evidence and property of the plaintiff.

3rd: Testimony. Witnesses for the prosecution; witnesses for the plaintiff. The court records; the court report¬er.

4th: The location and the outcome. The Courtroom; the charge; the scene of the crime; the Sentence.

5th: The Judge.

6th: The Prosecutor's case, cross-examination and summation; the police; the plaintiff's case, summation and cross-examination.

7th: The Defendant. The accused and the defense attorneys.

8th: Defense evidence, property of the defendant.

9th: The Law. Statutes and common law. Defense witnesses.

10th: The Verdict. The plea, the outcome for the defendant, the judge in a non-jury trial.

11th: The Jury. Bail, Grand Jury indictments.

12th: The defendant's case and summation. Pretrial motions and Incarceration.

While some of the following assignments are arguable, they reflect the adversarial nature of the system:
1st or 7th: prosecutor/defense; plaintiff/defendant.
2nd or 8th: evidence for the prosecution; evidence for the defense.
3rd or 9th: testimony for the prosecution; testimony for the defense.
4th or 10th: sentence and verdict; charge and plea.
5th or 11th: judge and jury.
6th or 12th: arrest and incarceration; case for the prosecution; case for the defense.

Some might quibble with the Judge as the 5th house. If we were delineating a horary chart for the defendant, for instance, we might place the verdict in the 10th and the judge in the 9th, the prosecutor in the 7th and the defense attorneys in the 5th (as his or her support in complying with the law). The 6th would be the police; and the evidence and testimony houses would be reversed—the evidence the 2nd, the prosecution's evidence the 8th. The jury would remain the 11th and the possibility of incarceration, the 12th. The great problem in astrological interpretation is the lack of fixed assignments for any given symbol. One must understand the nature of the event, question, or person in order to know how to assign.

Let's examine this further.
Houses attached to the court: 1st, prosecutor; 2nd and 3rd, state's evidence and witnesses, court reporter and clerk; 4th, court house; 5th, judge; and 6th, police.

Houses with respect to things outside the court: 7th, defendant and defense attorneys; 8th and 9th, testimony and evidence for the defense; 10th, the plea, the authority of the state, public opinion; 11th, the jury; and 12th, the jail. All of these function independently of any particular court situation. The judge is part of the court, not someone who visits the court or controls the system from outside.[/quote]
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you muddled anything. The problem is duplication of symbolism in the quoted list. Under "4th House" we have "outcome" and under 10th House we have "verdict." I struggle to find a meaningful distinction between these two concepts. In a criminal case, are they not one and the same thing?

I suppose you could argue that "outcome" is a wider concept than "verdict." But unless we include the wider outcome of sentencing following on from a verdict of guilty (in which case it would make far more sense to cast an event chart for the time of sentencing), the distinction appears to be meaningless. In a criminal felony case the "outcome" of a guilty verdict will invariably be incarceration, and the outcome of an acquittal will invariably be freedom and release.

The problem with this approach is highlighted in cases where there is a very favourable 10th and a very unfavourable 4th House (or vice versa)....how could you make an accurate determination of the result of the case in this situation??
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This area of horary appears to be rife with contradictions and difficulties.

The quoted list has the 10th House as "the judge in non-jury trials." That makes a lot of sense to me. In a non-jury trial, the judge hears all the witnesses, assesses all the evidence, and delivers the decision. All the power is with the judge. It therefore makes a lot of sense to attribute the judge to the 10th house in such cases.

However, in a jury trial, the judge has a much more limited role. The judge is controlling the proceedings, and can influence the jury in a limited way, but it is the jury that makes the decision. So I am open to assigning the judge to a different house in jury trials. Although I must say I have trouble putting him/her in the 5th! Very Happy

So logic would suggest that the decision-maker in a case (judge or jury) ought to be the 10th house. Applying this principle to jury trials, the jury (not the judge) should be given to the 10th. However, the above list gives juries to the 11th, not the 10th. Moreover, traditional astrology does not appear to make such a distinction (between jury and non-jury trials): it always assigns the judge to the 10th.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF the 4th is the end of the matter, then the moon in the 7th is thinking of the defendent? but is harmonious with the Prosecution? it is darn near a perfect trine to Venus. Also Saturn if it is Judge and Jury is in opposition to Mars, so that would seem to go with a guilty verdict?
Just thinking out loud here.
Granny
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Cenned



Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
Location: New York

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than in non-jury trials, I don't see that judge and verdict can both have the tenth. One needs to go elsewhere. Verdict and outcome could both be signified by the fourth without any problem.
Jury is doubtless given to the eleventh as representing those helping the judge; he does direct them.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot wrote:
Also Saturn if it is Judge and Jury is in opposition to Mars, so that would seem to go with a guilty verdict?
Just thinking out loud here.
Granny



Agreed. If we take the 10th House as the "verdict" (the weight of authority appears to be in favour of this), then the verdict is signified by Saturn - opposing Jackson's Mars in the 9th. I don't see how this aspect can be good for Jackson. It would appear to indicate a guilty verdict, at least on some of the charges.

Can anyone find anything in this chart that appears to ameliorate his position?
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