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Michael Jackson
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Opening Arguements are scheduled for Monday Morning, so that would be 28 feb 2005, court rarely convenes before 9 am, would opening arguements be the best chart for a court case chart? it seems to me it sets the tone? (actual site of Court case is Santa Maria, Ca) which is 34N57 by 120W26

if it does start at 9am there is Saturn on the 4th cusp, moon on the 7th cusp, and Mars on the 10th cusp... Taurus Rising, Venus in the 11th trine moon almost exactly, If MJ is the 7th, then Mars on 10th certainly makes sense, opposing Saturn isn't pretty, square Jupiter, and will perfect the opposition with Saturn March 7th/8th. I do wonder at how long the trial will last.

Granny Skot
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're right to use opening arguments as the "beginning" of the case. I would cast a chart for the time at which the trial actually commences (I can't really think of an alternative to that anyway).

Sounds like Michael Jackson is in for some stiff and implacable opposition, if the position and condition of his significator is anything to go by!

P.S. Granny, is that early or late Taurus rising? Might need some leeway with that ascendant if things are running late....
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get 4 tau 50 as the asc at 9:00 am, I'd suspect the court starts right about 9 the first day. it will be interesting to see if any news comes out today or not...

That Saturn exactly Conj the IC bodes to be quite loud in the case, I should think? Who are represented by the 10th and 11th house in a court case? the judge? maybe? And mars in this case is absolutely the 7th house indicator, Aries is Buried in the 12th house.

Granny
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first report from Smoking gun came out at 9:12 which means that court probably started on time (they are messaging every 10 minutes the latest developments in court) I'd say 9:00 am it was. Granny
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot wrote:
I get 4 tau 50 as the asc at 9:00 am, I'd suspect the court starts right about 9 the first day. it will be interesting to see if any news comes out today or not...

That Saturn exactly Conj the IC bodes to be quite loud in the case, I should think? Who are represented by the 10th and 11th house in a court case? the judge? maybe? And mars in this case is absolutely the 7th house indicator, Aries is Buried in the 12th house.

Granny


First = Prosecutor

Seventh = Defendant

Tenth = Trial Judge (I think it's a good question whether we include jury in the 10th as well: I would tend to say yes, as the jury determines the outcome of the case)

The IC/Fourth House interests me here, with Saturn conjunct. How do we interpret this. The prosecutor's father?
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granny_skot



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturn, the judge, is at home? or perhaps the ancestory/history of the case is very important? Mars, the defendent on the 10th is very public and well known, the judge is very private and not? the prosecutors planets are venus and moon, they are on the 7th house cusp and in the 11th house, and is Venus Combust or cazimi? Certainly Venus is exalted in Pisces and is supported by a nice trine to the co-significator the moon. (almost exact in fact) 2pis36 and 2sco32... I call that a trine!

certainly the Judge opposes the defendent it seems in this case with saturn opposite mars. I'd love to hear other opinions on the Chart.

Granny
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granny_skot



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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: I compared the natal and opening charts Reply with quote

and came up with some more interesting things, first of all at the time of the opening of court, the Natal nodes are in reverse from his birth chart which I've come to taek great notice of lately, Karmic "stuff' applies.

also T Uranus opposite n sun
T Venus opposite N Pluto
T Neptune opposite N Venus

There is a lot of opposition here!

Granny!

Leery
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear. You're quite right. MC is in Capricorn, so Saturn is the judge. A very old-fashioned no-nonsense conservative judge! And he is opposing Jackson. Looks like the Judge doesn't like Jackson at all!

Moreover, if my decision to include the jury in the 10th is correct, then the jury is Saturn also!...not looking good for him at all.

Saturn is a conservative planet, and I wonder whether this indicates the conservative nature of both the judge and the jury. It might be a mistake for the defence to put Jackson on the stand: that Mars/Saturn opposition might mean that neither the judge nor the jury will warm to him much.

(NOTE: does anyone out there who has experience with legal charts have any views on which House signifies the jury in a criminal trial??)

On a more positive note for Jackson, that highlighted 11th House is supposed to be good for defendants (Sun and Venus placed there in Pisces might indicate some jury sympathy...whether it's enough to acquit...i don't know).
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Judges, judgements and the dispensing of justice are all 10th house but juries are usually associated with the Moon.

Where you have the 10th house blighted by the presence of a bad planet, or a badly disposed malefic ruling it, you get a judgement that doesn’t please or a sense that honour and justice hasn’t been properly served. This happened in the O.J. Simpson trial where the chart drawn for the opening had the MC ruled by Saturn which was located in the 12th house opposite Mars. Lilly writes on p.375: “If the Lord of the 10th be in the 10th, in his own house, the judge will then do justice, and judge the cause for his honour, unless that planet be Saturn… If Saturn be judge, he will not judge as he ought The Judge’s defamation will be great if Mars be in opposition with Saturn” [as it is again here].

Saturn is retrograde and detriment and the fact that it is beneath the earth suggests that there will be a sense that the truth doesn’t emerge out of this trial as it should, or clear the matter up properly.

I’m not quite comfortable with this chart because Venus in Pisces seems to me to be a much more appropriate significator for Jackson than Mars in Capricorn, but they do say that the ascendant is assigned to the prosecution so this is a good chance to watch and learn. It’s interesting that the 2nd house signifies witnesses for the prosecution and the 2nd-ruler is positioned in the 12th. We have this current situation where the judge has to decide whether Martin Bashir is in contempt of court and that could mean that he ends up in prison! But since Saturn is retrograding away from Mercury it looks like that’s only a threat which won’t happen in the end.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Where you have the 10th house blighted by the presence of a bad planet, or a badly disposed malefic ruling it, you get a judgement that doesn’t please or a sense that honour and justice hasn’t been properly served. This happened in the O.J. Simpson trial where the chart drawn for the opening had the MC ruled by Saturn which was located in the 12th house opposite Mars. Lilly writes on p.375: “If the Lord of the 10th be in the 10th, in his own house, the judge will then do justice, and judge the cause for his honour, unless that planet be Saturn… If Saturn be judge, he will not judge as he ought The Judge’s defamation will be great if Mars be in opposition with Saturn” [as it is again here].


I haven't followed the case all that closely and a year ago I received a wonderful gift of satellite radio for my car -- no commercials or newscasts unless I wish to hear them. Since I rarely watch TV I've been mostly spared the details of the case. However on a talk show yesterday a pundit offerred this assessment, which is relevant to the above quote:

He said that regardless of the evidence, in fact perhaps in spite of the evidence, that this jury will find him guilty. Injustice goes two ways. In the OJ case, he got away with murder. Michael Jackson is a strange man, but in and of itself that is not a crime. If the prosecution can portray the accusers as gold diggers and there is no phsyical evidence to the contrary, justice demands he be acquitted. If the jury gets the sense a guilty verdict somehow absolves California of the OJ verdict, they might convict.

I was recently called to jury duty. I was selected for a pool and soon placed in the jury in a criminal case and almost as quickly dismissed. What I did see is one by one, the people with the greatest amount of education were dismissed (by both the prosecutor and defense counsel) until I got tossed, from then on I saw nothing. I opined to my neighbor, a computer engineer, that it seemed no one wanted educated people on the jury, when he told me he not only got on one, but was selected as foreman. But once the pool dwindles the attorneys cannot summarily eliminate jurors and he was the last one left. My point is, if one is falsely accused of a crime, one might wish to take a chance with the judge. You have no idea who might be determining your fate. Jackson, will find out.

Let's see, Martha Stewart is scheduled to be released soon. The Robert Blake trial is about over. What will we do after this one? Ahhh Saddam.

I'm going to look a bit closer after reading the Lilly quote. It is estimated the trial will go on for five to six months. We might want to look ahead, too.

Tom
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Non-sequitor Reply with quote

Didn't I just read that the Judge and prosecuting attorney for Saddams trial were assasinated? or attempted?

thank you for putting up the chart Deb

Granny
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lilly writes on p.375: “If the Lord of the 10th be in the 10th, in his own house, the judge will then do justice, and judge the cause for his honour, unless that planet be Saturn… If Saturn be judge, he will not judge as he ought The Judge’s defamation will be great if Mars be in opposition with Saturn” [as it is again here]



This quote may further support the view that the Judge is ill-disposed towards Jackson in this case.

Although the trial judge has a lot of power over the running of the trial and can influence the jury enormously, of course the ultimate decision rests with the jury.

It's interesting that the Moon (jury) is on the descendant, which represents the defendant. Could that placement literally mean that the jury is "with" Jackson? But on the other hand, the Moon is applying very closely to a trine with Venus (prosecutor) which seems to indicate a jury sympathetic with what the prosecutor is doing. It appears to me that there are two conflicting statements here in the chart. Does anyone have any views on this?
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kurgal



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Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a good look to turn up an hour late during testimony of the prosecution's star witness. Won't look good in the jury's eyes at all. If Jackson thought he could get sympathy or deflect attention away from the evidence he is sadly misguided. I'd say his lawyers would have blasted him for that.

Given the chart (taking Jackson as Mars, opposed by Saturn) I would say a guilty verdict is likely, unless his defence team can work wonders....
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Debra



Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the 7th house also represent the defense attorney? If so, then it looks good for MJ to have a strong Mars in Capricorn in the 9th house.

Like kurgal, I am also wondering about the moon's position. It looks like the jury is going back and forth on this one.
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Debra
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Debra wrote:
Does the 7th house also represent the defense attorney? If so, then it looks good for MJ to have a strong Mars in Capricorn in the 9th house.


That's another good question. Mars is strong, and exalted in Capricorn, but up against formidable Saturn. I think that Mars placement must have something to do with the strength and determination of his defence team....

But, as I pointed out in another thread, this site mentions the 8th as "friends and assistants of the defendant." Defence attorneys fit nicely within that definition....8th House ruler is Saggitarius...in which case, Jackson's lawyer is shown as Jupiter in the 6th.
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