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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
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Michael Jackson
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark and Deb,

I've wondered about the oriental and occidental differences myself, and assumed it had to do with the fact that an oriental planet for a time anyway, is visible on its own (more or less; it still needs the Sun to become visable) where as an occidental planet is not. Therefore there should be differences. I've never gone beyond that point, but I probably should.


Quote:
I'm curious to know how you apply your temperament delineation to other houses. For instance, if the ruler of the 9th is in your 7th, then you have relationships with foreigners, religious people, long-distance relationships, etc. So the 7th house tells you about them. But how does that correlate with the temperament of the native (1st house)? Surely both a melancholic and a choleric person could each have relationships with foreigners?


To use John Frawley's explanation (and I use his so often because the are usually so clear) the temperament is the cloth from which the clothing is made. It can be rugged like denim or fine like silk. We can, of course make something like a denim tuxedo or silk work clothes but they are still denim and silk. That they are denim and silk tells us something about the clothes, but the denim and silk do not change.

Our temperament does not change. It can be controlled a bit but it does not change. A sanguine type can go to the gym and bulk up but what we have is a sanguine with muscles, not a choleric. (Again thanks to Mr. Frawley).

As to Mark's question: A choleric (hot and dry) native is going to be complimented by a cold and moist person (to a point: if the native is extremely choleric and the other is extremely phlegmatic, they are not going to understand each other. If they are both moderately choleric and phlegmatic they will compliment each other well). In your example, the native will be attracted to a foreign born or other 9th house type that compliments his temperament. If the ruler of the 7th were in the 4th, the native would find his temperamental compliment closer to home. For a full explanation of complimentary temperaments in synastry see The Real Astrology chapter 15.

The first house is only part of the temperament. It is, admitedly an important part. I've been surprised a few times when working out a temperament to find the person is not what I expected at all, and my expectations were based on either reputation or the ASC and its ruler.

As I noted in a post above there are several ways of working out a temperament, and I'm eager to read Dorian's work on the subject to see what her research has revealed. Like anything in astrology we have to find the technique that suits us best and stick with it. I don't like adding them up like Lilly does and Lee Lehman does as well. Like Frawley says take a man; let's say he is an effeminate man. No matter how many adjectives we use to describe him, he does not become a woman. The same is true of temperament.

Most of us have all of the temperaments in our make up to one degree or another. Usually one, sometimes two dominates. In theory balance is the ideal. We usually need every one of the four now and again. For this reason if one is missing entirely, that too becomes important in the delineation. But again, this is rough work. It is the foundation. It is not the fine points; it is part of the fine points. And then each temperament is expressed through the significator of the manners, another topic entirely.

Tom
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

OK, that's interesting -- so the delineation of the temperament is applied to advice in the form of synastry. I didn't know Frawley had a section on that, I'll have to check it out.

Zoller does something similar with the rulers of the ASC: each of the rulers shows by house and condition whether and how the native gets personal happiness needs (shown by the ASC) met. Most people gravitate towards the domicile ruler, but if it is afflicted and weak, they may find their efforts to achieve satisfaction stymied. The astrologer can look at the other rulers and offer them alternate paths to follow.

E.g., let a water sign be rising, and the domicile ruler be in the 10th. The native needs emotional security, to feel that everything's all right (water), and tries to achieve that sense of security through ambition and deeds that achieve a good reputation (10th). But the ruler is afflicted, in detriment, etc. So the native will try and try but never seems to get the sense of safety about life he craves. But if the exalted ruler is strong in the 7th, the astrologer can suggest cultivating his relationships and cooperative partnerships as an alternate path to that sense of security and stability in life.

Ben
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Ben



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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

As promised, here is the first installment in my medieval delineation of Michael Jackson’s chart. I’ll post the installments in the order that I usually delineate, so I’ll start with character, personality, and personal happiness. I haven’t decided whether I’ll do health. In each installment, I’ll start by showing the testimonies I consider, and end with a non-technical summary of the sort I would want to show the native him/herself.

Disclaimer 1: I’ve seen several birthtimes for MJ, and I don’t know which one is the right one (I’ve seen one with Aries rising), so I’m going to go with the natal figure posted above. Fingers crossed!

Disclaimer 2: I’ve never read an MJ biography, so I’m basically treating him as an unknown person aside from a few public facts; and you’ll see that while medieval astrology has a psychology, it’s more in the vein of classical philosophers – i.e., character based. So even if I knew his biography well, I wouldn’t be able to do any of the deep psychological treatments as found in modern astrology.




Michael Jackson Character and Body

Temperament

ASC: Gemini (Hot, Wet)
Almuten: Merc (Hot, more Dry)
Moon square ASC (Cold, Wet)
Venus sextile ASC (Hot, Wet)
Saturn oppose ASC (Cold, Dry)

Hot = 3, Cold = 2, Wet = 3, Dry = 2: Hot and Wet.

Temperament is sanguine. Humanitarian, liberal, artistic, creative. Artist, musician, active, people-connected activities.

Physiognomy
Gendered body type: Gemini rising, and the majority of planets aspecting the ASC and almuten are masculine: body inclines more towards masculine.

Modal type: Motive (2nd decan Gemini): long rectangle (Gemini) with a triangle (decan). Longish, masculine body with broader shoulders and narrower waist and hips.

Height and weight: tall (Gemini), esp. with all the masculine motive planets aspecting the almuten and ASC.

Planetary body type:
ASC: Saturn opposes by 4.55, Venus sextile by 3.04, Moon squares by 2.48.
Almuten (Mercury): conjuncts Sun by over 10.00, trine Saturn by 6.12, square Mars by 3.13.

Even though Saturn is farther away than the other planets, he is the most angular above the horizon, and aspects both; and his body type is more in line with the other bodily testimonies that show height rather than round (Moon) or short and squarish (Mars).

Saturn: hard-working, suffering, serious, scientific, criminal. Suffers in silence; dreary and sad. Wisdom achieved through suffering, experience and study. An anti-social streak.


Prime Motivation:
Gemini: The native seeks freedom of expression and movement, using airy means like speech, interactions, ideas.

Rulers:
Ø Dom/almuten: Mercury. In 4th, retrograde, sunbeams, angular. Afflicted by Saturn. Tries through the family, using speech, ideas, and business. Somewhat successful here, with fear, setbacks, and difficulties.
Ø Exalt:
Ø Trip: Mercury. See above.
Ø Trip: Saturn. In 7th, in triplicity, angular. Through marriage and partnerships. They will be better if over business and property, not if they are marriages.
Ø Trip: Jupiter. In 5th, triplicity, succeedent. Through entertainments, children, having fun, esp. through singing, travel, generosity and money-related ventures. Successful here.
Ø Term: Venus. In 4th, afflicted by Mars, angular. Through family and the home, using love, partying, women and beauty. Pretty successful here, despite the affliction.
Ø Decan: Mars. In 12th, detriment, cadent. Through his private life. Unsuccessful here.

Aspecting ASC:
Ø Square Moon by 2.48. Adds glamorous, fantasy reputation and position and actions.
Ø Sextile Venus by 3.04. Adds a love of home and family; a nice home and family.
Ø Oppose Saturn by 4.55. Adds contentions with enemies, marriages that are sad.

Native seeks freedom of expression and movement, using speech, interactions, ideas, seeking a glamorous, fantasy reputation and position; he has a love of home and family, and tends to engage in contentions with enemies and marriages that are sad.

He is somewhat successful in achieving this happiness through his family (using speech, ideas, business); and more so through entertainments, children and having fun, esp. through singing, travel, generosity and money-related ventures; and less so through Venusian activities involving the home, i.e., a beautiful home, partying, etc.

The native will be unsuccessful in any attempts to achieve this freedom in his private life; indeed he has secret enemies and these private, hidden things will work against him. He should also be careful about his partnerships with others – any marriages will be colored with gloom and sadness, and he has open enemies; but perhaps if they involve business or property relations (Saturn) they will contribute more to his happiness.


Quality of Mind:
Mercury: retrograde, angular, sunbeams. Leo. Afflicted by Mars. Fixed.
Moon: Angular, triplicity. Afflicted by Saturn. Mutable.
Moon is stronger; no relation between them; moon squares ASC.

Native lives more according to the pleasures of the senses than the intellect; and these will tend to diverge from and conflict with the intellect. Emotions/desires are more changeable and it is difficult for him to know what he seeks; but his mind is more fixed and stable. The thrust of his mind is honest, gentle (Jupiter disposes Moon, sextiles both Mercury and Mercury’s dispositor). Afflictions show less stability and sharpness: harshness of emotions: Mars shows a quarrelsome mind and unjust; Saturn shows dishonest emotions.

Lilly’s method shows Saturn (good condition) and Mars (bad condition) as signifying manners because they aspect Mercury and the Moon. See above.



Triplicity rulers of Angles:
ASC: Mercury (angular but highly afflicted); Saturn (angular, unafflicted), Jupiter (succeedent, unafflicted).
MC: Same.
Native’s ability to achieve what he wants out of life is realized, but afflicted by, his family members, in the first 1/3of life; he becomes known for, and engages in, sad and difficult partnerships and encounters with enemies in the middle third. In the last 1/3 of life, he achieves more happiness and peace, being known for actions that are generous, fun, wise; travel, children, etc.

Interpretation Summary:

Native is a sanguine personality, creative, liberal, artistic, engaged in people-oriented activities. He is hard-working, suffers and is aware of suffering; tends toward dreary and sad, achieving wisdom through suffering and experience, and with an anti-social streak.

Native lives more according to the pleasures of the senses than the intellect. The emotions are more changeable, it is difficult for him to know what he seeks, and there are signs of dishonest emotions; emotions diverge from and conflict with his intellect; his intellect is more fixed and stable but he has a quarrelsome mind. Still, the general thrust of his mind is honest.

Native’s body is masculine, with short trunk and longer arms and legs; broad shoulders and narrower waist and hips suggesting a triangle superimposed on a longish rectangle. His height is about 6’, and normal weight between 157-170#.

In terms of his personal happiness, the native seeks the freedom of expression and movement, using speech, interactions, ideas, seeking a glamorous, fantasy reputation and position; he has a love of home and family, and tends to engage in contentions with enemies and marriages that are sad.

He is successful in achieving this happiness through his family (using speech, ideas, business); through entertainments, children and having fun, esp. through singing, travel, generosity and money-related ventures; and less so through Venusian activities involving the home, i.e., a beautiful home, partying, etc.

The native will be unsuccessful in attempts to achieve this freedom in his private life; indeed he has secret enemies and these private, hidden things will work against him. He should also be careful about his partnerships with others – any marriages will tend to be gloomy and sad; but perhaps if they involve business or property relations (Saturn) they will contribute more to his happiness.

The first third of life will see him finding what he wants out of life on account of family, but he will also be afflicted and encounter difficulties here. The second third of life will see him in sad and difficult relationships and encounters with enemies, though his efforts and activities are strong. The third third of life will see him enjoying himself more and being happier – pleasure, travel, enjoyment, perhaps teaching or being wise; good relationships and friends.



Last edited by Ben on Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:11 am; edited 3 times in total
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Ben



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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Jackson “Rank of Fame” Delineation
Rank of fame deals with the native’s reputation and the actual level of social contribution and power/influence he or she operates at. So it is a kind if mixture of what other people think, along with the real actions and influence that affect (and effect) reputation.

The sun is used as a natural significator of fame, along with the MC, plus some other considerations such the “slavery” considerations: e.g., how powerful the malefics are versus the benefics and luminaries. In medieval astrology, people with malefics more pronounced tend to have a lower quality of life, encounter more difficulties and struggle – which clearly affects one’s rank of fame.

Below I also use profections, firdaria, and primary directions to determine times of fame and increased reputation.

N.B.: I did some quick research on the internet to find dates of album releases and so on, since those are obvious signs of fame. But I often found that different websites have conflicting dates (or even the year!) of some releases. And Sony leaves out a number of things I had to find elsewhere. If anyone else knows of events that match the dates below, I’d be grateful (I really don’t feel like reading his whole autobiography!)

Sun
Angular, unafflicted, but in 4th house below horizon. Fame is indicated.
Sextile Jupiter: the native is known as generous, expansive, philosophical, native often exaggerates.
Dispositor Mercury: in the 4th, conjunct Sun. Fame on account of his family.

10th
Planets in the 10th: Moon. Angular; afflicted by Saturn.

Planets aspecting the MC: Venus opposes by 1.33, Mars squares by 3.15, Saturn sextiles by 0.16.

Rulers of MC:
Ø Saturn. Angular, triplicity, trine Mercury, square Moon, trine Venus.
Ø Mercury. Angular, retrograde, sunbeams, afflicted by Mars.
Ø Jupiter. Succeedent, unafflicted,
Almuten MC: Saturn.

Native is known for actions that are:
Saturn (strongest, most testimonies): involve difficult partnerships and contentions with enemies; hard work, discipline, suspicion.
Also Venereal activities (she is the primary professional significator) and self-destructive actions, afflictions by enemies.

Slavery:
Luminaries angular; benefics angular/succeedent.
Malefics are elevated above sun, and one is angular; Moon is afflicted by Saturn; Mars in 12th.

Liber Hermetis:
Moon applies to both malefics. Native’s fame (and reputation, in 10th) turns difficult and afflicted.

Firmicus: none.

Native is not at the greatest heights of service, but is not held down and it looks as though he achieves a high level. Look for things to turn downward as time goes on, with difficulties and afflictions.

Doryphory
Mercury is oriental and aspects the Sun. Saturn is occidental and aspects the Moon. Their almutens are Jupiter and the Sun: each is strong, unafflicted. This adds more fame, honor, entertainment, pleasure that the native is known for.

5 planets are angular and 4 aspect the angles; Moon is afflicted. The native has a fairly strong social functioning.

When
Firdaria of the Sun:
As chief firdar ruler: Aug 2002 – Aug 2012: not sure; just began.

As sub-firdar ruler:
Oct 1963 – Feb 1965 (age 5-6): Jackson 5 comes to fame.
May 72 – Dec 73 (age 13-16): Jackson 5 records series of hit singles.
Feb 82 – Oct 83 (age 23-25): Thriller released, huge international star.
Aug 91 – Aug 92 (age 33-34): Dangerous released; he starts an international relief foundation.
Jul 2019 – Aug 2020 (age 61-62):
Dec 2029 – Oct 2031 (age 71-73):


Profection of the 10th to itself:
Age 24 (1982): Thriller released; huge international star.
Age 36 (1994): Highly publicized marriage to Lisa Marie Presley; first scandal over boy erupts.
Age 48 (2006):
Age 60 (2018):

Primary directions:
Sun to sextile Jupiter (as benefic and playing part in the doryphory): June 1965 (age 7): Not sure.
ASC to square Sun: Sept 1965 (age 7): not sure.
ASC to sextile Sun (converse): Sept 1981 (age 23): not sure.
MC to conjunct Moon (planet in 10th): Mar 1984 (age 25): not sure.
ASC to trine Sun: May 1988 (age 29): not sure.
Sun to square Jupiter: Nov 97 (age 39): unsure; Blood on the Dance Floor released in November.
MC to trine Sun: Jan 2003 (age 44): unsure.
Sun to conjunct Jupiter (converse): June 2010 (age 51)
Sun to oppose Moon (planet in 10th): June 2010 (age 51)

I don’t have information on his locations during solar returns, or else benefics in the 10th during a solar return are supposed to show fame for that year.

The native will eventually suffer on account of enemies and poor relationships (Saturn angular, sextile MC and opposing ASC); but the native’s fame/reputation will generally remain strong.


Summary:

Native will achieve fame on account of his family, and will be known as being generous, philosophical, and as an exaggerator [could this be extravagance and excess, esp. because of the 5th house location of Jupiter? He has been criticized for his exaggerated sense of self]. He will be known for actions involving difficult partnerships and contentions with enemies, hard work, suspicion, along with self-destructive actions and afflictions by enemies. (He will also be known because of his professional activities, which are related to arts, music, entertainment – see professional delineation in later installment).

As time passes the native’s reputation will become more difficult and afflicted, but generally speaking his fame remains strong, and he will probably achieve a rather high level of fame, with important social functioning.

As for periods when fame is achieved, see above. But note:

Thriller came out and brought great fame during the period of the firdar of the Sun and Jupiter (Feb 82 – Oct 83) and the profection of the 10th to itself (Aug 82-83). The Sun is the natural significator of fame, but Jupiter sextiles him and shares in the doryphory rulership, so this would make sense.

From Oct 2009 – Mar 2011, his firdaria rulers are again the Sun and Jupiter, and the converse direction of the Sun to Jupiter takes place in roughly June 2010, as does the Sun directed to oppose the Moon. His life (ASC) and actions (MC) should be ruled by their third triplicity ruler Jupiter by that time, so I would expect this period, especially 2010, to be a time of increased fame, social functioning and happiness.

See above for other matches between predictive techniques and life events.


Last edited by Ben on Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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Ben



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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Jackson's Profession or Mastery
“Profession” here has to do with a fundamental skill the native has for his/her whole life, and which wants to be expressed; it relates to what the native is meant to do in society. The goal is to identify a planet or planets that govern a certain range of abilities. The profession or mastery may not be the native’s day job.

Planets in/aspecting angles:
Moon (10th) – I already said this involves glamour
Saturn (7th)
Venus (4th)
Mercury (4th)
Sun (4th)

Favor Venus and Mercury; Venus is closer to the cusp so gets favored.

Rulers of angles (all of which are almutens, too):
1st: Mercury. Angular, sunbeams, afflicted by a Mars square.
10th: Saturn. Angular, triplicity, unafflicted, trined by Venus, aspecting MC closest of all.
7th: Jupiter. Succeedent, unafflicted.
4th: Sun. angular, unafflicted.

Don’t make Mercury the main significator because Venus is more angular and aspects the MC. But he should be considered secondary because of his rulership of the 1st and his angularity.
Saturn should be considered as an addition because of his rulership of the MC and his close aspect to it (and the ASC).

Professional significator is Venus with Mercury participating; and Saturn added in. Look to Ptolemy for a description of Venus-Mercury and Saturn aspecting (Tet. IV.4).

The almuten of these three is the Sun, which adds glamour, authority; activities where presence is important.

With so many planets angular, the native has a number of skills.

Venus and Mercury are angular, so strong; but they are afflicted by a square from Mars (in detriment in the 12th, ruler of 6th, exalted ruler of 8th). So the native’s skill is high. But he will incur danger and destruction on account of his profession, likely from hidden enemies or the native’s own self-destruction (12th) – incarceration and condemnation.

Summary:
The native’s “profession” or personal skill that wants to be expressed, is related to activities in music, theater, entertainment, and pretty things, and professions related to women’s finery. Look for professions that involve visibility and personal presence or even glamour. The previous delineation of Rank of Fame showed that the native does experience fame, so it is reasonable that what he is famous for is also his profession (instead of it being a special hobby unrelated to his day job).

The native’s skill is high; but there is danger of incarceration, troubles, condemnation, on account of hidden enemies or self-destruction on account of it.


Last edited by Ben on Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ben



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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Jackson Financial Significator
This delineation focuses both on a cluster of significators of wealth (Jupiter, Moon, rulers of the 2nd) and a special significator that is supposed to show where the native makes his wealth, whether by good or bad means, etc. Then there are some predictive techniques (some of which I omit since I don’t know the state of his income levels!)

One thing not apparent in this delineation is that the financial significator is found through a ranking system: starting with the POF, you see if each candidate meets certain criteria. If it fails, you reject it as the significator and move to the next one. The more you reject, the poorer the native is. In MJ’s case, the POF is in a good situation, with a very benefic Jupiter as its dispositor – so it was the significator, indicates strong, wealth, and there was no need to go any further.


General

1. Rulers of the 2nd:
Almuten/domicile: Moon. Angular in 10th; afflicted by Saturn square. She can perform but not at high level.
Exalted: Jupiter. Succeedent in 5th, in triplicity and unafflicted.
Triplicity: Mars. Detriment and cadent. Cannot perform.
Triplicity: Venus. Angular in 4th. Afflicted by square to Mars. She can perform but not at high level.
Triplicity: Moon. See above.
Term: Mars. See above.

Jupiter: The native’s strongest and most lasting source of income by this method is through activities involving entertainment (5th), children (5th), travel, teaching (Jupiter by nature).

2. Triplicity rulers of 2nd corresponding to 1/3 of life:
First third: Mars. Cadent, detriment. Income lowest here.
Second third: Venus. Angular, afflicted by Mars. Income strong.
Third third: Moon. Angular, afflicted by Saturn. Income strong.

3. Jupiter (natural significator of substance)
See above.

4. Moon (another natural significator)
See above.

So native does have wealth that comes mainly from activities surrounding entertainment, children, travel, teaching. His income will increase as he gets older, and while there are troubles and contentions afflicting his money situation, generally things look good.


Specific significator (FS)
a. Part of Fortune (3 Sag 29). Unafflicted. Triplicity ruler Sun aspects it, and the Sun is himself unafflicted and strong.

The POF is the special financial significator. Being at the top of the list, it shows wealth and ease in getting it. Its dispositor is Jupiter, succeedent and unafflicted in the 5th – again, from entertainments, etc.

By quadrant, its almuten is Mars. By whole sign houses, its almuten is Jupiter.
Where the native gets his wealth:
POF in the 6th: native gets wealth from subordinates and people who attend to him. (Could this mean fans?)
Almuten of the 6th is in the 12th: from institutions, confinements, secret enemies. (Could this mean on account of difficult contracts and other means that make life confining?)
By whole sign houses, the almuten of the POF is Jupiter (see above).

By what activities:
Ruler of POF is Jupiter, unafflicted: from offices and responsibilities, managing important things.

Legality and licitness of the wealth:
Again, the ruler is Jupiter. He sextiles the Sun, significator of fame. So the native makes his money by licit and laudable means.

Location of the ruler of the ASC:
In the 4th. The family and the native’s property (i.e., immoveable property like a home) also plays a positive role in his accumulation of wealth.

When wealth is gotten:
Triplicity rulers (see above): in the latter 2/3 of life.

Primary direction of POF:
Square the MC: Sept 1977 (Age 19)
Oppose ASC: August 1988 (Age 29-30)
Sextile Sun: June 1994 (Age 35)
Trine Sun: Feb 1997 (Age 38]
(Remember primary directions don’t show every important event)

Profecting the 2nd house is probably not worth doing, in an extensive way, since you’d pretty much have to be his accountant to know what his income was year to year. But I do note that his profected 2nd comes to the 12th house this year, which has a Mars in detriment (he also afflicts the ruler of the 12th). Malefics mean expenses, so the native will have many debts and expenses this year.

Firdar of the FS’s ruler (Jupiter): Aug 1978 – Aug 1990 (Ages 20 – 32).

Summary:
The native’s wealth is strong and comes easily. His most lasting and strong source of income some on account of activities involving entertainment, fun, children, teaching and traveling. He will have important managerial responsibilities in earning it, and he will make his money by licit and laudable means.

His family and property will also play a positive role in his accumulation of wealth.

He may also gain wealth on account of subordinates or people serving him; and institutions or secret enemies or otherwise things that confine and restrict him. [Note: if this is correct, perhaps it means fans and restrictive contracts and managers? I favor Jupiter, but there may be something to this.]

His wealth will be greatest in the last 2/3 of life, and there will be an extra emphasis on finances from 1978-90. [Note his great fame and wealth during this period, especially the Jupiter-Sun firdar – Jupiter is wealth, the Sun fame, and they are strong and in aspect in the natal figure.]


Last edited by Ben on Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben

Thank you so much for publishing this. I’m struggling to recall any other occasion where I’ve seen a modern celebrity analysed in the medieval manner, with notes on technique and summary of judgement. It is very illuminating. I see you refer to the triplicity rulers too. I didn’t realise anyone was still putting that technique into practice. It’s fascinating to see how you’ve combined your techniques to form your judgement.

I notice you didn’t refer to the effects of transits at all. Is that because you don’t consider them as important as profections, firdaria or directions, or you felt it was unnecessary because you were illustrating a traditional method and concentrating mainly on the life ‘overview’? (For example Sue and I both felt that the Pluto-Saturn conjunction was significant for his current troubles. Would you consider that relevant or do you tend to dismiss the influence of the outers?)

Thanks again for giving us such an informative and detailed analysis.

Deb
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Ben



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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

Thanks, I'm glad to see you found some interesting points in the delineations so far. Later today I'll post my delineation on his marriage, children, and spirituality.

Thanks also for the question about transits, as well as mentioning the modern planets -- I'm glad you asked.

On the outer planets, there are two reasons I don't use them. First, because I wasn't taught how! Zoller used to use them in the 80s' (you can see them used in his books on Arabic Parts and the fifth house), but as far as I know he stopped years ago. But the main issue is one of rulerships: you'd have to totally reconceive rulerships, and since medieval uses 5 levels of rulerships, they would all have to be changed before you could even delineate, much less predict.

Transits. This is largely a matter of the order of topics I was taught to delineate/predict in and how I like to do nativities. After I delineate some area in the natal figure, I use predictive techniques that rely on the natal figure alone to lay out some periods that should manifest the area I've delineated -- like firdaria, triplicity rulers, certain profections, primary directions. You only need the natal figure for those. So I used them in a quick and focused way to narrow down some periods.

Transits, like solar returns, depend on other information besides the natal figure (i.e., the movement of planets after birth). Apparently the medievals did not use them much for that reason, and used them mainly during solar returns and to fine tune the timing of techniques that use the natal figure.

I use transits mainly if I am doing a set of predictions for a given year, which I will do when I'm all done with the delineation. I would normally look at transits to things like the angles and luminaries, and transiting repetitions of configurations already in the natal chart (e.g., Mars transits to the angles, and the transiting Mars aspects to his natal Venus and Mercury interest me). But I wouldn't emphasize them a lot unless some other factor promised something important about those planets, via a solar return, profections, etc.

So I'll turn to MJ transits later when I do predictions for this coming year -- I'll gather up any predictions so far that cover this year and the last couple, I'll profect the ASC for this year, do a solar return, and apply transits. If anyone knows where he was during his solar return, that'd be helpful!

Ben
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Jackson Marriage Delineation
This is a complex and interesting sort of delineation, having a number of steps. I’ll make comments about technique as I go along to give you the general gist.

The main thing in these considerations is how the marriage functions and contributes to flourishing and objective satisfaction (and by extension, reproduction), rather than finding a soul-mate. As far back as Plato people have talked about romantic partners as soul-mates, but the key functional questions are: will he marry, how many times, is it a good match, are they sexually compatible, will his social status and functioning be more upward and beneficial?

Part of Men’s Marriage is: 12 Aqu 21

1. 7th house/Part/Marriage Almuten/Planets

7th house delineation in marriage context
Planets in 7th: Saturn, angular, triplicity, unafflicted. Square Moon, trine Mercury, trine Venus, oppose Asc, sextile MC.

Rulers:
Domicile/Almuten: Jupiter. Succeedent, unafflicted, in 5th.
Exalted: none.
Triplicity: Jupiter. See above.
Triplicity: Sun. Angular and unafflicted in the 4th, aided by sextile to Jupiter.
Triplicity: Saturn. Angular and unafflicted in the 7th, aided by trine to Venus.
Term: Venus.
Decan: Moon.
(Jupiter has the most testimonies)

Saturn in the 7th and Jupiter the domicile ruler, each unafflicted and strong and each aspecting the Lord of the ASC by benefic aspects, the native does marry. But the native’s relationships will be burdened and hard work, and will be a burden on his personal happiness (Saturn oppose ASC). Look for the native’s finances and reputation to be negatively affected by his relationships (Saturn square Moon, Lord of 2nd and in 10th); there is generally a professional element to his marriages (Saturn sextile MC).

The native’s marriage is related to his Jupiterian entertainments and pursuits: generosity, travel, humanitarianism (in Libra) – so he will meet at least one wife through these or on account of these; by derived houses, he might meet her through her friends. Saturn as Lord of the 10th in the 7th, the native’s relationships come about through his professional work and through people of authority and high status (strong, moderately dignified Saturn Lord of 10th, in 7th and aspecting Moon in the 7th).

Marriage Significators and Almuten:
7th: Afflicted by conjunction to Saturn; trine Venus.
Jupiter (Lord 7th): Succeedent and unafflicted.
Saturn: Angular and unafflicted.
Moon: Angular and afflicted by square Saturn.
Venus: Angular and afflicted by square Mars.
Part MM: Cadent (afflicted).

Jupiter is the almuten of these (= Marriage Almuten)

The majority are afflicted, and Saturn is malefic (albeit helped by the trine to Venus).
The Lord of the ASC is trined by the Marriage Almuten.

The native’s marital bliss will be middling, with sadness and laboriousness a feature.
But note the marriage almuten’s good condition: this suggests that they will be of benefit to him despite the problems.

7th house on Sagittarius, a fire sign and mutable, the native marries two women.

The Lord of the ASC is lighter than, and joined to, the almuten of the 7th: the native wants to copulate with women.

Part of Marriage:
The Part is cadent, but in the 9th and otherwise unafflicted. Its Lord is Saturn, angular and unafflicted. Venus aspects both, though she is afflicted.
The quality of the wife is middling – i.e., a somewhat suitable match for the native.

Planet signifying wife (Moon):
Moon afflicted and in triplicity. The wife’s social class is middling. Note that the natal figure shows the native will be wealthy and prominent, so she is probably below him in status.

Extra technique: Lords of the 7th, Part of Marriage, Moon, and Venus not aspecting [i.e., receiving] them – the native will not marry or won’t like women.

2. Moon: Luminary signifying opposite sex (in male nativities)
This consideration evaluates the appropriateness the wife and the joy of the marriage. What I find interesting about this part is that if more than one wife is indicated, the number of planets aspecting the Moon indicates the number and nature of the wives. Here I exclude the Sun since I want to treat him in terms of his general role in showing the stability of the marriages (see below).

She is angular, but afflicted by Saturn, in her 3rd quarter. Her triplicity rulers are: Mars (very afflicted), Venus (angular, afflicted), and herself (angular, afflicted).

The Moon and Venus are each strong in quantity but all afflicted. So this is more testimony for a middling marriage of average happiness, with affliction.

Moon’s aspects:
Opposing Sun: (this is a sign of divorce and strife)
Sextile Mars: the wife is headstrong; arguing, unstable.
Square Saturn: the wife is baseborn and unwholesome. (Ptolemy: stern and hardworking)

So the native has two wives (excluding the Sun): a Martial wife who argues, and a Saturnian wife who is difficult and inflexible. The opposition to the Sun says he divorces at least one.

[Note: He married Lisa Marie Presley during the profection of his 10th to itself – and its ruler is Saturn in the 7th, who also is the one afflicting his Moon (the Moon-Sun signifies divorce). His second wife Debbie Rowe used to work for him as a nurse, and is very much out of the public eye – Mars is the ruler of the 6th – servants. So I’m going to treat Presley as the Saturnian wife, and Rowe as the Martial wife.]

3. Venus: General Love Significator
Again, whether the marriages bring more harm or good, and how appropriate the wife is.

Venus is angular and afflicted by Mars. Her triplicity rulers are: Jupiter (strong, unafflicted), Sun (strong, unafflicted), Saturn (strong, unafflicted).

Venus rather afflicted but her triplicity rulers strong: the native will marry an inappropriate and disagreeable woman, but he will be fortunate and will find utility from it.

Ptolemy says: Venus with Saturn, the wife will bequeath him enough of the goods of life, and she will love him and the children a lot.

Venus is peregrine. But Jupiter is in one of her signs (Libra): the native’s marriage has more good than bad, and will be praised by others.

Venus is squared by Saturn and Jupiter aspects neither: the native will not delight much with women, and if he marries, he won’t enjoy sex much.

These testimonies say the native’s marriage (or one of them) won’t be a very good match so far as personalities and having sex goes, but it will be praised by others and generally provide more good than bad.


4. Mars: Significator of Male Sexuality
This overlaps with section 6 below. Mars shows how hot to trot the native is for sex – generally, the more dignified and strong, the more appropriately lusty he is.

Mars in detriment: the native cultivates sex excessively and causes impediments and business problems [because of it].

(Defer everything else to the section on Venus-Mars-Saturn)


5. Lastingness of the Marriage
Here we look at the luminaries: good aspects and no afflictions tends to show the marriage lasts; if the opposite, the opposite.

Luminaries in opposition, Saturn afflicting one (Moon): there will be a legal contest or separation (could be the Saturnian wife) and they are not reunited (no benefics aspecting Moon).

Both malefics aspect the Moon; he will be the dissenter.

[An adaptation of a technique mentioned specifically for women:] Mercury aspecting the malefic that afflicts the Moon, the divorce is much gossiped about; Venus aspecting as well, the divorce happens by suspicion or adultery.

So the divorce probably concerns the Saturnian wife: they are divorced but are not reunited, he initiates the divorce, it concerns suspicions or adultery (or similar things), and it is all much gossiped about.


6. Mars-Venus-Saturn: Misc Sexuality and Emotion Considerations
Here, Mars, Venus and Saturn are treated as general significators. There is a lot of stuff in here about incest and disapproved sex interests. Generally, Mars means lust, Venus means sexuality in general, and Saturn adds conservatism and propriety (but afflicting and in a bad condition, things get sexually dysfunctional and strange).


Mars square Venus, with Mercury also involved. Mars is in detriment, afflicting her from the 12th. So the native’s sex drive is unusual or wild.

Venus trine Saturn, with Mercury involved. The wife is older, and there is a public dimension to the marriage.

All three planets together, the marriage is not durable or useful.

Overall, the sexuality situation is unstable – propriety mixed with an unusual or wild sex drive. Mars cadent and in detriment, this could be sexual dysfunction or strange sex interests. Note: If Saturn had squared Venus, I would have said the sexuality issued tended toward the really unusual, criminal, disgusting.

Since Mars and Saturn each indicate a wife, and since they each play different roles in this section, I’m tempted to separate them somewhat: although they all characterize MJ’s sexuality, the Saturnian wife is older, it is a publicized marriage, it is less sexual and more gloomy; the Martial marriage is the one that is the more unusual, with sexual irregularities. Mars in the 12th, the wife is kept more hidden [which is true]?

6. Predicting the Marriages.

Profection of the ASC:
To the 7th: ages 18, 30, 42, 54.
To the house where the domicile ruler of the 7th is: 28, 40, 52
To another sign ruled by the domicile ruler of the 7th (i.e., Pisces): 34, 46, 58

Profection of the 7th:
To the house containing its domicile ruler: 34, 46, 58
To another sign ruled by its domicile ruler (i.e., Pisces): 28, 40, 52

(Omitting solar returns due to lack of information; but the degree of the natal 7th in the ASC of a solar return is an argument for marriage that year.)

Primary direction of the Moon to the Marriage Almuten (Jupiter): Oct 1999.

Firdaria:
Period of the Lords of the 1st and 7th (Mercury-Jupiter): Jul 85 – Mar 87

None of these dates/ages match. But in my (limited) experience, the profections will often show the age at which the future spouses met or became seriously involved, as opposed to the actual ceremony. I would be grateful if anyone knew when he actually met/got involved with each of his wives. Plus, since the firdaria period (ages 27-28] overlaps with some of the profection dates, perhaps his 1988 autobiography might talk about a romance taking place at that time?


Summary:
The native does marry. He marries at least twice, though not necessarily in this order:

1. A Saturnian wife who is difficult, hardworking and inflexible. [I believe this is Presley]
2. A Martial wife who is argumentative and difficult [I believe this is Rowe]

The divorce of the first wife is at his initiative, on account of suspicions or adultery. It is much gossiped about.

He should expect to find his wives from the following areas: professional activity, perhaps with or through someone of authority and status; and on account of his entertainments and pleasures (i.e., his philanthropy, travel, etc.). He might meet one wife through her own friends.

[Note: He married Presley first, during a profection of the 10th to itself, the Lord of the 10th being Saturn. So the theme for that year was a professional partnership. He later divorced her. His second wife, Rowe, used to be his nurse, and is secluded: Mars is the Lord of the 6th and in the 12th.]

The native will have only middling marital bliss, his marriages being characterized by burdens and difficulties (including being a burden on his personal happiness), even though they will be of benefit to him. At least one of the wives is a disagreeable and inappropriate woman. The marriages will afflict his finances and possibly his reputation and image. Still, the marriages are praised.

The wives’ social status and suitability is middling; since the native has indications of fame and wealth, they are likely to be of lower status.

Sexual indications are mixed, with signs both of disinclination to sex and an unusual (perhaps unusually active) libido. I’m inclined towards the “inactive” libido, since while Mars is in detriment he is also cadent and so very weak. So the native’s sex life with the wives has some sort of dysfunction and irregularity – it is not consistent or highly pleasant.

Prediction is difficult, since I lack important information about when he met or got seriously involved with his future wives (which in my experience is often shown by profection instead of the actual date of the marriage). If Presley was just a business arrangement, then there is another wife out there, the relationship perhaps taking place during the firdar period of Jul 1985 – Mar 1987 (Ages 27-28], which is also supported by profections? His 1988 biography might say something about that.

Note: with the current scandal, there might be interest in knowing about any sex with boys. The ancient/medieval authors did give rules for this, but some are unclear and in any event none of them apply to this nativity. (The main concern for them seemed to be whether the husband would shirk his marital and reproductive duties in favor of fun with young men – I’m not sure how that would apply today. An interesting book on this topic in Renaissance Florence is by Michael Rocke). So, that seems to be an open question as far as I can tell.
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Jackson Children Delineation
This is also an interesting technique, because it treats the 5th house last, favoring the 1st, 10th, 11th and 7th. The fact that the other houses are looked to first, suggests that children in general add to the strength and lastingness of the native’s life, and hold hopes that his/her name will continue – hence those houses are looked to first. It gives me an idea why children are associated with the 5th. My hypothesis is that they are in the 5th by derived houses: by being 2nd from the 4th, they are the helpers/allies/assets of the household. Deb, what do you think of this?

Part of Children (by night, distance from Sat to Jup, project from ASC): 23 Aries 39

The Significator of Children (an almuten of certain house cusps and planets) is Jupiter.

Houses, Signs, Planets
1st house: Gemini, barren.
11th house: Pisces, very fruitful.
10th house: Aquarius, rather fruitful. Moon in 10th in Pisces, afflicted by Saturn. Grants children.
7th house: Sagittarius, rather fruitful. Saturn in 7th – denies children.
5th house: Virgo, barren. But Jupiter is in Libra (rather fruitful), intercepted. Grants children.

Most of the signs are very or rather fruitful, and two givers of children are present (albeit one afflicted). The native will have at least one child, probably more because of Jupiter.

But the majority of planets are on masculine signs, with two barren – an argument that at least one child will shrink from social contacts or perhaps die young.

Part of Children is in the 11th, conjunct Cauda (not sure if this is an affliction in a children delineation), trine Saturn and opposition Jupiter – in the 11th, the native has a few children, and with goodness and joy.

Jupiter generally testifies that there are many children (culturally speaking).

Jupiter’s triplicity Lords: Mercury (angular), Saturn (angular), himself (succeedent): many children.

Lord of the 5th applying to the Lord of the 6th: the children are the native’s servants.

Ruler of the ASC sextile the Almuten of Children, and the Ruler of the ASC trine the Part of Children, the native and the children have a good relationship.

So the native has several children, a middling to high amount for his culture, and they serve him. He and they have a good relationship, they bring goodness and joy. There is an argument that at least one will shrink from social contacts or be sickly (but signs of serious affliction aren’t present).

When native has children:
Triplicity lords of Jupiter: all occidental, he has children after his youth is over.

Profection of ASC to 5th: 28, 40, 52.
Profection of ASC to house with Lord of 5th: 27, 39, 51. By whole sign: 26, 38, 50

Summary:
So the native has several children, a middling to high amount for his culture, after his youth is over (38-40, 50-52), and they serve him. He and they have a good relationship, they bring goodness and joy. There is an argument that at least one will shrink from social contacts or be sickly (but signs of serious affliction aren’t present).

Note: He had children at age 38, 39 (not sure when his 3rd child was born).
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Ben



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Minneapolis, MN USA

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone,

This is a notice that I have revamped and corrected my postings on MJ in the form of an article on my website (www.bendykes.com/articles.htm). If you are interested, you can read the updated version there, complete with his firdaria, profections, solar return, and full moons for the upcoming year. I also corrected an error in some of the primary directions and got even better results predicting his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley and some financial/fame events. Enjoy!

Ben
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EstebonGone



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 16
Location: CASCADIAN TOMB

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Ben,
I noticed above you hinted at a possible spirituality delineation for MJ, though i have not seen it in your article on your site. did I miss it?
I am currently studying Medieval Techniques as laid out by Zoller and find your discription of application interesting.
thanks
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1633
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

court postponed for MJ today due to be admitted to the hospital with Flu.
just thought you'd like an update since that is local news for me.
2/15/2005
Secret

Granny
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering when this thread would be resurrected again.! Given how topical Michael Jackson's trial is. I understand a jury has been empanelled; or at least, the process is well underway.

Just looking at the transits, Uranus is opposing Jackson's 4th House Sun from the 10th House (and over the next few months). And Neptune will be hovering over the MC soon...neither of these aspects looks very promising for him.

Uranus opposing Sun can indicate sudden shocks and reversals. It also has a habit of "bringing things to light"....and here we have it stirring up those 4th House planets - Jackson's home, family life, his past, his private life, his secrets. Hmmm....interesting!!

(Just read that the mother of Jackson's children is going to testify for the prosecution...and it is possible she might reveal the "truth" about the paternity of those children in the course of her testimony...more 4th House issues being stirred up!)


Last edited by kurgal on Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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kurgal



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Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and I should add, as Neptune moves close to the MC, it of course opposes his natal Venus on the IC. Venus rules his 12th House. So some secrets (12th house) about his private relationships at home (venus on IC/4th house cusp) are highlighted.
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