skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Michael Jackson
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:50 pm    Post subject: Michael Jackson Reply with quote

The news has been very quiet about Michael Jackson lately, at least here in the UK. I notice that Mercury has just turned retrograde around his Sun and the transitiing opposition from Uranus is getting very close, as is the sextile between transitting Saturn and natal Mars in the 12th - does anyone know how long the trial is likely to run?

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

was recently postponed until sometime in January 2005. Yech!

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have more than enough titilation in the courtrooms for the moment with the trials of Kobe Bryant and Scott Peterson. When those are over, we'll have the election, and after the inauguration of the next President, whomever it will be, we'll be ready for Michael.

Deb, did you get the news that he has supposedly fathered triplets? I never quite bought into that. I think it was supposed to show Michael as a typical virile man who prefers adult women to young boys. Whatever his sexual inclinations, he is anything but typical.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn’t, but I haven’t really been following his news. I took a look around the news sites yesterday before making my post and the only recent item I found was that the actor Macaulay Culkin is reluctant to defend his childhood friendship with him for fear people will question the nature of their relationship. What a strange reason – I should have thought that was the whole point, so that his evidence could clear up whether he was aware of anything sinister or not. Obviously he doesn’t want the negative publicity which seems a cowardly reason not to testify.

I’m trying not to have any opinion about Jackson because it is all beyond me. A year ago I’d have thought ‘no way’ but now I just hope it’s not true. He has a very difficult chart but I can’t decide whether it indicates actual imprisonment rather than the emotional fear and confinement that will inevitably fill his life. This is one I just want to watch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He had a surogate Mother have babies for him which it turns out are triplets, hardly anything remotely ordinary. The mother lives in Florida.
(I try not to make florida jokes, it is really so not funny)

There is certainly a whole lot of ugliness going on right now, so extra not required.

But concerning MJ, he dodged the last pedophile charge, but what kind of parent would even consider letting their child alone with a person who'd been charged, even if they'd been absolved, with that kind of crime?EVEN if I considered the person a good friend I wouldnt' allow my child to be around them. As a parent you dont take chances with your child, EVER! Okay off me soap box, I'm really just thoroughly apalled by the whole thing! So I will try to keep mum.

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny,

Perhaps you could try looking at it from an astrological perspective. You might have strong opinions about this (and obviously you do) but since this is an astrological forum it would be good to hear your astrological opinions about this situation. Personal value judgements have no place in interpreting astrological charts. I have no personal opinion on whether Michael Jackson committed the crimes for which he has been charged but I have had a look at the charts involved and his transits. When we look at a chart, we have to completely dismiss our opinions and see the chart for what it is really trying to tell us. It is dishonest and pointless to form an opinion and then hope to find it in the chart. In these cases we often find what we are looking for whether it is there or not. None of us know whether Michael Jackson is guilty or not so it would be pointless to look at his chart to try to find where the astrological indications are for him being a pedophile. There might not be any. All we can do is look for potentials and possibilites of all sorts of senarios.

There is no doubt Michael is going through a difficult time at the moment. Pluto is conjunct natal Saturn forcing him to go through some pretty big changes. Pluto is the planet of transformation while Saturn does its best to resist those changes. It is quite likely that Michael will undergo some sort of psychological metamorphasis at this time but it is likely that he will continue to resist them feeling that they are being forced upon him.

As Deb mentioned, he has transiting Uranus about to oppose his natal Sun. This aspect comes in around November and again in January (quite possibly the time of the trial). His whole identity will be affected quite dramatically. His Sun is in the fourth house so this shake up will leave him feeling as though everything that was solid has slipped from under him. Uranus is transiting the 10th house of Michael's natal chart. His public image is being severely challenged. Robert Hand describes the transit of Uranus through this house as a possible sudden fall from power, usually as a result of an action that the peer group finds unacceptable. There is often significant changes in relationships during this transit. One possible affect of this transit is that the court case might finally make Michael grow up and take some responsibility for himself and his behaviour. He has always been described as being like a child himself, which is why he prefers to have children as his friends. This may or may not be of a sexual nature. We don't know. Around the same time, Uranus will be opposing Pluto bringing further dramatic changes. Whether or not Michael Jackson is convicted of the crimes (of course being convicted doesn't guarantee guilt) and goes to prison, it is likely that this time period will see a very different Michael emerge.

It will be interesting to see the charts when a trial date is set.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sue,

I was answering the question Tom posed about Michael being in the news recently having yet more children.

Tom, How dare you ask a non astrological question, Naughty boy, ten demerits. Wink (though you are still charming)

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

His Mars is awefully close to Algol, and Algol is activated by mars, I would think bad aspects to Mars would be a serious problem for him. I wouldn't be surprised if all his life he's felt imprisioned and had difficulty breathing.

And Pluto in the fourth would certainly support the rumors of his having a nasty abusive father. I would think. I must agree with you that he has a "difficult" chart.

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And Pluto in the fourth would certainly support the rumors of his having a nasty abusive father.


Hmmm... don't agree. About a twelfth of the population have Pluto in the 4th, including me. I have the most loving and supportative father (and mother). I don't see Pluto as an abusive power per se.

I hadn't considered the Mars-Algol conjunction. That is quite interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difficulty I see in the chart is that a great deal of strain is expressed through the midheaven. Saturn rules and is aspecting the MC by sextile from an angular house, which describes a lot of hard work and responsibility attached to professional interests but capable of bearing good results. The opposition of Venus brings an extreme of fame, popularity and sexual interest. That’s descriptive of Michael’s early career, except his fame became phenomenal – other factors such as ascendant-ruler Mercury’s sextile to Jupiter and trine to Saturn contributes but ultimately I think it’s very difficult to distinguish between a great deal of something and a phenomenal amount of something. (If I saw a chart like this at birth I could say that the career will be very important, receive a lot of attention and be the source of much success but also much misery, but I don’t see how I could say “this person will take the world by storm”).

If we think about the sextile between Saturn and the MC in terms of indicating how easily his public persona is received by public attention then we can understand why someone who was celebrated for his talent and charisma is of no less interest for his peculiarities and sordid secrets. In fact Saturn as the MC-ruler is quite malefic when it is placed on the descendant - the hostile western angle which is associated with attacks from other people or events. And although the Moon is disposed by Jupiter and located upon the 11th house of good fortune and well-received ambitions, it is applying closely to the square Saturn and so forewarning of downfall and the possibility of disgrace. Ascendant-ruler Mercury reinforces this to make it a predictable likelihood by translating via retrograde motion between the sextile of Jupiter (success in early life) to the very malefic 12th house Mars (trouble in later life).

Venus is trine to Saturn - an aspect of very mixed blessings depending upon whether Saturn is capable of expressing responsibility or destruction. Earlier I described Venus' opposition to the MC as too much sexual attention and when we consider that Venus rules the 12th house of tribulation and self-undoing we realise how potentially-damaging this aspect is. Venus is surrounded by malefics (separating from Uranus, applying to Saturn and Mars) and it is closing in on retrograde Mercury.

The highly afflicted state of Mercury, as ruler of the ascendant, describes a very confused and unsettled person, struggling with his persona – retrograding towards Venus, he is striving to beautify his physical appearance but because of all the malefics involved that only brings further dissatisfaction. Mercury also rules the 5th house and afflicted allows creative talent to diminish in the striving for pleasure and indulgence.

Being in close aspect to the nodes makes Mercury a particularly fateful planet. It is possible to consider Mercury as the ruler of the 5th house of children, applying only to the malefics (immediately to Mars in the 12th, through Saturn, to 12th-ruler Venus) as indicative of his current troubles. To me this reads as a selfish or at least self-indulgent urge to seek out the company of children, mainly boys as this is Mercury applying to Mars, and through this creating his own downfall and self-destruction. There are certainly enough indications of sexual problems in this chart with the 5th ruler retrograding to the square of Mars in the 12th, any aspect of Saturn as ruler of the 8th, and a destructive Venus. The 5th ruler square Mars could be read as abuse, but whether that is self-abuse, or abuse directed towards others or received from others is open to question. Probably it is all of those because there is such a hard collection of difficult energies that could easily explain why MJ seems ‘screwed up’ to the rest of us.

In all this the Sun is very weak; unaspected except for contact to the outers, a loose application to the square of Saturn, and the separating opposition of the Moon which is translating its influence to the square of Saturn; in other words denying it an outlet. Like asc-ruler Mercury it is buried away in the 4th house showing no real integration with the professional image that the public hates or loves. He clings to isolation and privacy, wants to recapture his ‘lost childhood’ and would probably climb back in the womb if he could! Since the Sun reveals the essential spirit of a person, the potential of Michael’s true character appears to have been crushed and ignored. The conjunction with Pluto shows a much more profound sense of power and depth of character than his superficial media image allows us to understand but the sextile to Neptune in the 6th reveals a confusion in how to apply it and a dissipation of his essential energy - which might make him ultra-sensitive but it also introduces physical weakness and spiritual confusion. So where is Pluto’s energy going? Pluto is supposed to indicate the principle of transformation, but the flip-side of Pluto, which will often be seen when it is tied to a resistant Sun, is a remarkably obstinate will to remain just as one is! The only transformational urges that MJ appears to be recognising are those he applies to his face.

Many elements of this chart indicate rejection of personal responsibility and maturity. It seems that responsibility has been applied externally and forced upon him but the Moon’s square to Saturn shows that emotionally he rejects it – probably the single most important cause of all his woes. As Sue says, the transit of Pluto has now reached the conjunction of Saturn, a make or break influence at a time when many other powerful and personally challenging aspects are coming to fruition. I have no doubt that MJ had a hard childhood, though I haven’t explored that in the chart it’s all there, but what is crucial to him now, as Pluto joins Saturn and Uranus opposes the Sun, is that he has to break down the barriers that prevent him from maturing and developing his strength of character. Those barriers seem to be his trait of clinging to a lost past and the ease with which he assigns responsibility for his problems over to other people and unfortunate circumstances. Regardless of the validity of the charges brought against him, the chart shows he has brought his problems upon himself. If he doesn’t see that and accept it, the future looks very grim indeed. With so much affliction in such a hard chart and Saturn ruling the 8th, it could even be the death of him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pluto: ouch caught in the "to short a reply" mode! you got me.

I agree I dont necessarily think of Pluto as malefic. I think the analogy that best comes to mind for me is ... the Universe wants your window open so that you can enjoy the fresh breeze, If you pay attention and open the window you get a fresh breeze. if you aren't paying attention the wind starts blowing harder and harder until you either open the window yourself or a Tree comes through and opens the window (or wall) for you. So I often see pluto as malefic because to me so few people pay attention to the little signs along the way, that life tends to then smack them with something to force open the issue.

I have another thought for you. the Sun, moon, Mercury and Venus are all apt to be divided equally among houses and signs among people's charts, because they are on the inner arc of the Solar system, but mathematically speaking, I do not believe that is true for the outer planets, meaning outer from earth on, Nor am I certain that is true for the Asc. because I have noted that Baby's seem to come in groups. Of course the Asc, part I have to start investigating I figure you'd need ten thousand charts to compare to see if this is true. but even the signs are not equal so you really can't expect that 1/12 of the population have Pluto in the 4th house... this would be an interesting study. mars and Jupiter will be close to the 1/12 mark, but Saturn on I believe you will begin to see diferences in the ratios.

I wonder if this is the type of mathematical Data that Asto Data Bank might be able to generate with their large quantity of charts? Interesting!

Thanks again for giving me food for thought Deb.
Confused

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a look at thousands (at least 20,000) of charts through the search facilities of Solar Fire, AstroDatabank and Jigsaw. Pluto is fairly evenly distributed between the houses as are all the planets. The differences are statistically insignificant. The signs on the house cusps change approximately every two hours. In a twenty-four hour period, each planet will end up in each house.

Quote:
but even the signs are not equal so you really can't expect that 1/12 of the population have Pluto in the 4th house...


The signs are equal (the constellations are not however) but the houses aren't - unless you use the equal house system or the whole sign system. Depending on the latitude you live, one house could be 50 degrees while another might be fifteen degrees. So sometimes a planet will spend more time in one house than another. But statistically, it all evens out. This has nothing to do with inner or outer planets. The point is that each planet will end up in each house in any twenty-four hour period.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1635
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

Update, MJ was in court yesterday. His lawyer was cross examining the Prosecutor. No other information about what actually went on in court was in the news. so your sense of timing seems to be very good.

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed Deb's reading of Michael Jackson's chart, but since I am new to natal work, I wanted to start with a fixed technique, and pretty much the only text I have is Christian Astrology. Lilly would have us start with things like the lord of the geniture, temperament and significator of manners. Is there much benefit to starting with this? I mean I see that Deb did a thorough analysis without recourse to any of that.

I also took a quick look at MJ's chart using Lilly's rules for finding out someone's career. Lilly say to look at three planets, Mercury for mental work, Mars for physical work, or Venus for the arts and pleasure. Lilly next gives a set of rules to see which ones will show the career of the native. Using his rules on MJ's chart, I think it shows Mercury as representing MJ's career. Now I haven't done a thorough analysis of the part Mercury plays in this chart, but before I do that I wanted to know what was everyone's opinion of using rules like the ones Lilly uses. I guess the common sense approach would be to use the 10th house, its ruler and its dispositor. This approach would not lead us to Mercury, unless as the ASC ruler it gets drawn into everything.

A small note on Lilly's rule here is that he says if you find the significator of the career by using one of his later rules (i.e., rules number 3-5), he says that is usually shows a career that is not too successful. These rules are on page 625 of my version of CA, in the section on the 10th house.

And does anyone know a good book that explains temperament in detail? Both Lilly and John Frawley place a lot of emphasis on it, but besides a few small examples Frawley gives, I have no idea how to interpert the planets through the temperament, Any good books on that?
_________________
Mark F
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was meant to be just a few comments but ended up a lot longer than I intended it to be. (I was supposed to be writing something else at the time; it was one of those occasions where what you are not supposed to be doing seems so much more interesting than the thing you have to work on).

Culpeper refers to the planets as the general significators, and the houses (and their rulers) as the particular significators. He sees the general significators as more principal than the particular significators. So if you are considering the potential for someone fulfilling a career of a Venusian nature then you ought to consider Venus and its potential besides the MC and its ruler.

I’m very into temperament myself but I don’t use it explicitly in judging birth charts. I suppose I use it all the time really without focussing upon it but it really comes into its own in decumbiture and establishing basic personality traits – like whether someone is a ‘retentive’ personality and problems that extend from that. I’m struggling to think of a text I can recommend – it’s incredible that you’re learning primarily from Lilly but I think you’d benefit from having a modern narrative and illustration of the technique in practice. Or at least a wider application of traditional techniques to nativities than you can find in Lilly. Although his techniques are sound, there isn’t enough demonstration. John Gadbury’s Collection of Nativities would be useful for seeing a traditional approach to nativities applied to a wide number of charts, but there isn’t a great deal about temperaments in it, though the use of temperaments pervades the whole text.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Forum Index -> Mundane Astrology & World Events All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 1 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated