Lots of Lots 1 by Martin Gansten I am trying to identify possible Greek/Arabic sources of the lists of Lots (Sanskrit sahama, from Arabic sahm) found in medieval Indian texts. Below is one such list in translation. If anyone finds it familiar in whole or in part, I would be grateful for any pointers. 1. Fortune 2. Preceptor (= Spirit?) 3. Knowledge 4. Fame 5. Friends 6. Greatness 7. Hope 8. Ability 9. Brothers 10. Honour 11. Kingdom 12. Father 13. Mother 14. Children/Sons 15. Life 16. Water 17. Work 18. Illness 19. Love/Desire 20. Strife 21. Patience/Forgiveness 22. Science/Learning 23. Relatives 24. (unclear) 25. Death 26. Other countries 27. Wealth 28. Others? wives 29. Others? work 30. Merchants 31. Success in undertakings 32. Marriage 33. Birth 34. Torture 35. Faith 36. Love/Pleasure 37. Strength 38. Body 39. Dullness 40. Business 41. Falling over with drink?? 42. Enemies 43. Valour 44. Means 45. Poverty 46. Dignity 47. Path [across] water 48. Bondage 49. Daughters 50. Horses Quote Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:58 am
2 by Deb Hi Martin I'm guessing you know about this already, but Al-Biruni has a very extensive list of lots - details on this page: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/alparts.html Cheers Deb Quote Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:03 pm
3 by Martin Gansten Thanks, Deb. Yes, I know about al-Biruni, but I am guessing that the Indian lists would be based on Greek/Arabic lists with the same number of lots (or fewer, if several lists have been combined). Thanks for helping me clarify that. Quote Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:08 pm
4 by Chris Brennan The most extensive Greek list is in the Olympiodorus commentary on Paul's Introduction. I think that there are more in that list than what you have here, although I don't know how much crossover there is without seeing the calculations in your list. Quote Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:50 pm
5 by Martin Gansten Chris Brennan wrote:The most extensive Greek list is in the Olympiodorus commentary on Paul's Introduction. I think that there are more in that list than what you have here [...]. There are. I don't think the Indians would have pruned an existing list, so basically I am looking for lists with 50 or fewer lots -- preferably the same as or similar to those above. Quote Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:24 pm
6 by Chris Brennan Martin Gansten wrote:Chris Brennan wrote:The most extensive Greek list is in the Olympiodorus commentary on Paul's Introduction. I think that there are more in that list than what you have here [...]. There are. I don't think the Indians would have pruned an existing list, so basically I am looking for lists with 50 or fewer lots -- preferably the same as or similar to those above. There isn't really anything like that, in between the huge list in Olympiodorus and the relatively small lists of a dozen or a couple of dozen lots in Dorotheus, Valens and Firmicus. Quote Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:34 pm
7 by Martin Gansten Chris Brennan wrote:There isn't really anything like that, in between the huge list in Olympiodorus and the relatively small lists of a dozen or a couple of dozen lots in Dorotheus, Valens and Firmicus. Thanks; that's already quite helpful. My working hypothesis must be, then, that either an Arabic or a Sanskrit author combined several shorter lists, and/or expanded them using innovations of his own. I think we can rule out Firmicus, but the lists of Dorotheus and Valens are both likely to have been transmitted to India via Persia. Does any particular lot stand out to anyone? How common is the Lot of Horses? (I confess I have paid very little attention to lots in my own practice.) Quote Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:50 pm
9 by zoidsoft Here is a list of 163 lots from Delphic Oracle 5 in Acrobat format: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/lots.pdf The chart is mine, but what is important here is the alphabetical listing on the left, the source text column and the formula. You can arrange in zodiacal order, but since you are reseaching the sources, alphabetical is better here. The strange looking symbol in the formula is for the Ascendant (I have a special glyph which represents the helm "oiax". Curtis Manwaring Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC Quote Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:58 pm
10 by Martin Gansten zoidsoft wrote:Here is a list of 163 lots from Delphic Oracle 5 in Acrobat format: Thanks; that's very helpful. No horses! Did the Arabs invent that one, I wonder, or the Indians? Both cultures held horses in high regard... Quote Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:22 pm
11 by zoidsoft Martin Gansten wrote:zoidsoft wrote:Here is a list of 163 lots from Delphic Oracle 5 in Acrobat format: Thanks; that's very helpful. No horses! Did the Arabs invent that one, I wonder, or the Indians? Both cultures held horses in high regard... I don't know. This list was given to me by Robert Schmidt back around 2006 for programming into my software and represents the earliest sources on the lots. As you know, but for the benefit of some others here, the Arabs greatly expanded that list during the middle ages. BTW, I am back onto programming the primary directions and have finished the proportional semi-arc routines in my primary directions component and plan to at least include the circle of position and possibly Placidus under the pole variations with the Ptolemy, Naibod, Placidus and Brahe keys. The method of Dorotheus that you wrote about in chapter 2 (oblique ascensions of the bounds and rays to the ascendant) is already in Delphic Oracle 5 under the "circumambulations" option in the Time Lord List window. I have also located an algorithm for plotting stars on the screen so that I can have a 3D chart which would be useful to display arcs of direction so that you can see the logic visually. I am in Oregon at the moment and might have to take care of some business down in Vegas mid July. I hope to have this done by this fall. Curtis Manwaring Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC Quote Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:06 pm
12 by Levente Laszlo zoidsoft wrote:As you know, but for the benefit of some others here, the Arabs greatly expanded that list during the middle ages. In fact, it's already an expanded list, for most of the lots that labeled "Paulus Commentary" are possibly drawn from the Arabs. You know, there is a vast list of lots in Olympiodorus but it appears only in one manuscript, Laurentianus 28, 34. This codex, which was copied around 1000, has a wide selection of texts, including parts of genuine works or epitomae by Hephaestio, Rhetorius and Theophilus of Edessa. As there are unique parallel passages with another manuscript, Vindobonensis philosophicus graecus 115, they must have had a common ancestor that was copied towards the middle of the 10th century. Now, while Vindobonensis contains the whole text of Olympiodorus, neither it nor the fragmentary codices of their branch (like Laurentianus, which has only Chapter 22) nor even the manuscript family edited by the school of John Abramius in the late 14th century has this list of lots. That's why when Emilie de Boer prepared the critical edition of Olympiodorus (which appeared under the name Heliodorus, a faulty correction by a user of Vindobonensis which was later picked up by John Abramius and his friends) she rightfully decided to separate this list from the other parts of the work. Unfortunately, it was only printed by a smaller typeface, which doesn't really help us to see the difference. It should have had to be put in a separate appendix - perhaps that's why Pingree used to want to make another critical edition of Olympiodorus, which restores this text in the original form it was transmitted. There are two possibilities: either Laurentianus represents an "improved" version where some new lots devised by the Arabs are included, or all other manuscripts are faulty while it's the Laurentianus which conserves the original text. I think the first possibility is more likely since the fact that Laurentianus preserved just one chapter from Olympiodorus shows its scribe may have been uninterested in the other parts of the work (which is not the case with the remaining authors mentioned above), albeit astrological lots were among his primary concerns. Then this list, at least partially, might have been drawn from an Arabic author (such as Ab? Ma?shar) whose works were started to be translated in the early 11th century. Even if it's not the case, we'd better be cautious with the list appearing in Laurentianus when dealing with genuine Hellenistic stuff. Quote Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:01 am