While I think you delivered some great work I am still not convinced that Spain is the obvious. Jupiter in Aries could represent Spain (Sagittarius) or Germany, Denmark or England (Aries). Cancer could have been Holland - and that is starters.

Yes results are always obvious...afterwards! My old history teacher used to say that events are only 'inevitable' once they have happened!

This raises the point I made in my last post.

Another point I wonder about is how accurate these associations to countries are? Who decided Brazil was Virgo and Argentina Libra? In the case of Spain we can go right back to Ptolemy. However, for Latin American countries the attributions of signs to them obviously cannot be that old? .... Also what if a national chart brings up something totally different sign wise? I would like to research this topic more.

As Andrew points out even when we agree on associations it can be confusing with numerous competitors. Plus what about say African teams we have no astrological associations for traditionally? I personally know nothing about the astrological profile of Ghana. Does anyone here? Hypothetically, what if some of these countries had been Jupiter ruled? If this is genuinely a WORLD cup we need a wider perspective IMO. Still, I agree the chart Almuten is worth checking out. I personally think that might be a more reliable indicator of the favourite than the Moon.

If we are going to bring in mundane factors to tag countries I see us having three choices:

1 Traditional associations of signs to countries (what if there are none?)
2 National charts
3 Aspects to Aries Ingress chart (ie the angles)

Mark

Mark you said

If we are going to bring in mundane factors to tag countries I see us having three choices:

1 Traditional associations of signs to countries (what if there are none?)

Earlier in the thread I think you mentioned setting up a thread in the mundane forum to discuss Ptolemy/Bonatti et al attributions. I think it would be a great idea if you do this. When I read Ptolemy translation I get the impression that the astrological attributions may have derived from the assumed nature of each regions' peoples rather than the other way round. Maybe that is just the transalation though. I think it would be interesting to discuss the whole subject at length.

Amelia wrote:

Earlier in the thread I think you mentioned setting up a thread in the mundane forum to discuss Ptolemy/Bonatti et al attributions. I think it would be a great idea if you do this. When I read Ptolemy translation I get the impression that the astrological attributions may have derived from the assumed nature of each regions' peoples rather than the other way round. Maybe that is just the transalation though. I think it would be interesting to discuss the whole subject at length.

Hello Amelia,

Yes I do intend to do this. Ptolemy does seem to consider climatic factors and divides the quarters into the astrological triplicities. Hephaistio of Thebes also mentions a bit on countries linked to signs too. However, its interesting that Ptolemy mentions a third factor which is the links countries have to constellations rising in their latitudes. This is even more explicit in Vettius Valens. However, apart from Lilly and the English seventeenth century astrologers the only medieval sources I have discussing countries and signs is Ibn Ezra and Bonatti. There is clearly lots of mundane material from Persian, Arabic, Latin and Reniassance astrology it would be useful to have others input on on.

I have just been hesitating whether to put this in the mundane or traditional forum? Any views?

Mark

MarkC wrote:
YI have just been hesitating whether to put this in the mundane or traditional forum? Any views?

For what I understood from Feraboli comment to the Italian translation of Tetrabiblos many scholars became mad - don't take me too literally -to find Ptolemy sources for Tetrabiblos II.4

Feraboli lets understand her readers it should be some partition of the map of "ecumene", Ptolemy wrote the book about Geography, and his astrological projection fits with his geographical work.

margherita

Feraboli lets understand her readers it should be some partition of the map, Ptolemy wrote the book about Geography, and his astrological projection fits with his geographical work.

Hi Margherita,

Good point. There is obviously a strong link. I was planning to study that book at some point. Was it written before Tetrabiblos? I took a quick peak at an online version of Ptolemy's Geography.

Feraboli lets understand her readers it should be some partition of the map of "ecumene''

You had me totally lost with the word 'ecumene' . Fortunately, I found this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumene

Mmm this all sounds like its going to get way too heavy for the mundane (or Sports!) forum. Plus I think I am more likely to get better informed discussion of the history and sources on the traditional forum so I will open a thread over there this week.

Thanks

Mark

MarkC wrote: You had me lost with the word 'ecumene' . Fortunately, I found this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumene
Mark

I forgot you are not a Catholic, for us it is a common word.

I will wait for the new thread.

margherita

I looked at opening chart and try to find the "reason" why Spain. Yes, Ju has most acc dignities. Ju rulers Sag sign countries and Pi sign, but because we have Sag ASC, we concentrate our attention on Sag countries and they are Spain, Australia and SAfrica. Ju is in 5 house that is Northwest direction from Johanesburg. Australia is east, SAfrica do not fit, so Spain remain - fit with Northwest direction! It seams that planet is more important then sign in which it is.

I looked at opening chart and try to find the "reason" why Spain. Yes, Ju has most acc dignities. Ju rulers Sag sign countries and Pi sign, but because we have Sag ASC, we concentrate our attention on Sag countries and they are Spain, Australia and SAfrica. Ju is in 5 house that is Northwest direction from Johanesburg. Australia is east, SAfrica do not fit, so Spain remain - fit with Northwest direction! It seams that planet is more important then sign in which it is.

Hello Goca,

Is this the opening match of the World Cup, opening ceremony or start of the final you are discussing? I assume its the latter? If so I can check this out as I have loaded up all the opening game charts since the World Cup Final in 1950. Yes I was interested in the directional approach myself and suggested this in the opening thread regarding signs symbolising directions as in horary. I tried using triplicity rulers for the MC or domicile rulers for the ASC/DESC. However, its simply didn't work out for signs =directions. Mind you I wasn't using a chart Almuten! I will check out the houses angle on the chart Almuten too. Personally, I need to see this replicated in other World Cups. The fact it happens to work in this World Cup proves nothing to me. Still, you have given me an interesting technique to research. Thanks.

Like everything in life this is not as simple as it looks though. For example in terms of essential dignity the different triplicity systems will assign different status to Venus and Mars in water signs depending whether you are using the system of Dorotheus or Ptolemy. Then there is the differences on the system of terms ie Ptolemy or Egyptian.

If we use accidental dignity it gets even more messy. Not least differing house systems! One system might have a planet in the 5th while another has it in the 6th. Plus how much do we weigh sect in our considerations? Lilly and the other 17th century astrologers didn't weight it. However, it was very important to ancient authorities. Sorry to be awkward but these issues wont go away.

I hope this doesn't end up being another astrological fig leaf to explain away our inferiority to the Octopos oracle.

Mark

MarkC wrote: Hello Goca,

Is this the opening match of the World Cup

Yes, that is Opening Match South Africa - Mexico

If so I can check this out as I have loaded up all the opening game charts since the World Cup Final in 1950.

Wow, that will be really interesting to check that out Mark!!

Yes, that is Opening Match South Africa - Mexico

I was afraid you were going to say that. Damn! I dont have any of those loaded up. Its the Finals I have stored. I can see my work is cut out. I think to be complete I need to check the finals too.....

Wow, that will be really interesting to check that out!!

Well I am not working just now so I have a lot of spare time for such indulgences.

Mark

Mark wrote:I hope this doesn't end up being another astrological fig leaf to explain away our inferiority to the Octopos oracle.

I don't think the octopus picked out Spain before the tournament started though, did he? At least Amelia and I managed to do this and we both used completely different methods. I made a few bob on it, so it appears it was possible to predict the outcome beforehand - even without an octopus!

Anyway, good luck with your researches.

I don't think the octopus picked out Spain before the tournament started though, did he? At least Amelia and I managed to do this and we both used completely different methods. I made a few bob on it, so it appears it was possible to predict the outcome beforehand - even without an octopus!

Hi Ficina,

Indeed. Full kudos to both you and Amelia! I think its best to make your mind up before the forum discussions start influencing you. I confess I wanted to believe Andrew's horary prediction as it seemed to reinforce my incorrect hunches. Plus I always want Brazil to win! Still, looking at the mundane charts Spain was a strong favourite. I must go back through the first thread and see what reasons you gave for picking them.

Did you put any money on England too or was that just understandable national loyalty coming through on your part?

Anyway, good luck with your researches.

Thanks. I also plan to check out Aries Ingress transits for finals. Hopefully, by Euro 2012 I will have some clue what I am doing...

Mark