Murder of the Spouse

1
I'm not sure if this has been discussed specifically before, but this is a topic of interest for me, and I've read in Cardan's aphorisms that:
When Mars or Mercury afflicts the lord of the 7th, being elevated above him, the native will kill his wife or his enemy...
I'm assuming wife could be "husband" if it's a woman's chart.

Anyone know of other aphorisms out there on murder of the spouse?

I tried Cardan's on a few charts -

O.J. Simpson (although never charged, I'm sure most would agree he did):
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Simpson%2C_O.J.

7th ruler Saturn in the 12th in detriment conj Pluto, with Mars aspecting from above, a powerful place in the 10th conjunct an exalted NN and peregrine/out of sect (increasing power of a peregrine, angular malefic).

Scott Peterson is a little similar:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Peterson%2C_Scott

7th house Saturn, rather than the 7th ruler, is aspected by Mars above in detriment (another 7th ruler in the 12th though).

Brynn Hartman:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hartman%2C_Brynn

Mercury opposes the 7th ruler Jupiter from above. Jupiter is in the turned 8th, and Mercury is also the ASC ruler in the 8th (murder/suicide). Venus-Pluto opp is also a love-death sort of aspect connection. Phil has Venus conjunct Pluto in the 7th!

2
Great topic. I'm going to check up on it, but for the record, OJ was charged and tried. He was acquitted, although as you say there is little sensible doubt that he did it.

Now I have the ruler of the 7th in detriment in the 12th, but so far, nothing to show for it ;-)

Tom

3
Well, we must assume that people of USA ruled that O.J is not guilty. My personal opinion is that we cant without reasonable doubt say he is guilty. But i want to ask some general question.

In his case we also have planet in detriment. So what that means. When we say that some planet is bad located (sign or house) i suppose that would mean that native who has such planet will have problems in that area of life.

I ll give you negative example:

Reynhard Heydrich, chief of the SS in nazi Germany until his assinasination, had Mars in Aries 0 Jupiter in house 9. So we could say that is good placement. Jupiter in fire sign, Mars in his domicile. But a good qustion would be "good for who". He was a mass murdered , but he has 2-3 planets exalted or in their domicile.

Similar position had one priest in my county. He is cardinal today.

Mr Simpson has really messy natal chart. But i seen a much worse charts were people were so good and helpful too others, that i couldn t believe.

So, my question to traditional astrologers is: how to define killer in chart without a doubt ?
As long as you remember me I ll never be too far

4
Well, we must assume that people of USA ruled that O.J is not guilty.
No a jury of 12 people said he was not guilty. The vast majority of the people of the USA think he is guilty because the evidence said so. "Not guilty" and "didn't do it" are not necessarily the same thing.
So, my question to traditional astrologers is: how to define killer in chart without a doubt ?



I doubt there are chart signatures or anything else that scream "killer" in any chart. Even admitted killers like Ted Bundy don't have anything like that. Charts can and do indicate difficulties but whether they will manifest into murder is not so clear.

5
So, my question to traditional astrologers is: how to define killer in chart without a doubt ?
The point of the thread wasn't to predict a killer without a shed of doubt, but for any aphorisms or other techniques that might point to a propensity to kill one's spouse. I personally don't think that a chart causes anything to happen, the native chooses what they will with what they have been given. If you do have violent tendencies, you can overcome them or let them overcome you.
Reynhard Heydrich, chief of the SS in nazi Germany until his assinasination, had Mars in Aries 0 Jupiter in house 9. So we could say that is good placement. Jupiter in fire sign, Mars in his domicile. But a good qustion would be "good for who". He was a mass murdered , but he has 2-3 planets exalted or in their domicile.
The aphorism I have here is in reference to Mars or Mercury afflicting the 7th ruler from above. Any other details I provided (detriment, etc.) were just observations that made sense to me. I wouldn't call myself an expert on killers, although I have looked at charts of known killers.

Reinhard
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hey ... C_Reinhard
I'm not sure I'd agree that Mars in Aries is "good." I have Mars in Aries in the 10th in a day chart (out of sect) like him, and it has been a difficult planet in my life, not good. Malefics in good celestial state don't behave as benefics, in my opinion. I have read traditional interpretations of Mars in Aries in a day chart and it often comes with serious challenges that are almost impossible to overcome, or could cause the native to use its power for bad things. Mars is a masculine fire planet, in a masculine fire sign, in a day sect, above the horizon where it is more so - that is very exaggerated. The Jupiter conjunction could increase this. Mars is at least occidenal (mine is oriental, so even more masculine). The 9th house can deal a lot with belief systems, and such a Mars/Jupiter conjunction could make someone believe that they are doing something "right" when it is not right. Or you can justify your cruel acts, etc. I would consider the persecution of the Jews a 9th house issue.

I would recommend reading this post on strong malefics, if you haven't already:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4832

6
People kill for several reasons:

-politics, ideology, racism, nationalism, etc
- money
- sex, jealously, passion, obsession, anger...
- evil
-madness
- irresponsibility and lack of understanding or comprehension.
-several combinations of the above

Context is everything here, so I don?t think that things can be said about any type of killing "in general".

A woman who killed the husband to get his money is a very different situation from a woman who had a delusional fantasy of him cheating on her with multiple affairs. In one case we would look into the 9th house, in the second moon and mercury would probably be the culprits. A spy woman who killed his "husband" would be just doing her work, so, as said, things can be hugely different in the astrological interpretation.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

7
People kill for several reasons
I agree, and the same thing can be said for those who commit suicide. We may predict that some people might take their own life based on their chart, but it might not be true for others because people kill themselves for different reasons.

However, I do think that it is possible to see such things under certain signatures. When they kill their spouse, then have to deal with the aftermath for the rest of their life - go to trial (7th house too), go to prison (12th house), etc. - you are more likely to see this in a chart because it is an important part of their life experience. There could be a 10th house focus too because maybe it's very public. Let's say they're sent to prison for half or more of their life because of this! I tend to think if something is very important in your life it is more likely to be shown in your chart.

I would think that the 7th ruler afflicted could point to many things though, such as an unhappy marriage, fights, etc., which doesn't necessarily point to murder. In concert with other things, especially malefics and difficult houses like the 12th, you would wonder. I know that a sister who married and was almost killed by two of her spouses had her ASC ruler Mars in the 7th house in detriment and opposite an angular Saturn in fall, so it was a sort of flip version of Cardan's aphorism (without the Mars/Mercury affliction above). Both of her spouses were drug addicts with violence tendencies and one went to jail for rape, etc. Unfortunately, I have neither of her spouses' charts.

Re: Murder of the Spouse

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Tanit wrote:I'm not sure if this has been discussed specifically before, but this is a topic of interest for me, and I've read in Cardan's aphorisms that:
When Mars or Mercury afflicts the lord of the 7th, being elevated above him, the native will kill his wife or his enemy...
I'm assuming wife could be "husband" if it's a woman's chart.

Anyone know of other aphorisms out there on murder of the spouse?

I tried Cardan's on a few charts -

Interesting thread, thanks.

First of all I would say that of many of his aphorisms not even Cardano would trust after 5 years he wrote; very soon in fact he published his Comment to Tetrabiblos, leaving at his back the ?Arabs nugae.?
So I believe that before taking for granted the aphorism we should understand a little where it comes from, and this I will try to do, for what I know, which is not very much, anyway this is my understanding.
Valeria Livina who commented a selected choice of Cardano aphorisms together with Anton Grigoryev, suggest in their comment that Cardano is likely talking about the chart of his elder son.
http://books.google.it/books?id=zB-IesW ... &q&f=false

Anyway, whatever their ?remarkable expertise in Medieval astrology? they claim at page 10, they are wrong. :(


Cardano published his son?s chart: in the chart 19 Sagittarius is rising and Mercury is in its sign in the 26th degree of Gemini, angular in the seventh house, Mars is at 28 Cancer, so in no aspect with Mercury.

Let?s try to see if we can find some other source for the aphorism. Moreover Cardano in another one of his aphorisms says that ?the mixture of Mars with Mercury affects every kind of violent death. ?
So I had the idea that Cardano was thinking in a more general way, not just killers of their spouse. Evidently in the aphorisms you mentioned he puts in relationship this with the ruler of the seventh house.

So where we should search to know more? Very easy, without any need of expertise. Ptolemy chapter about the qualities of the soul. It?s one of the more important chapter of Tetrabiblos, the only one together with the one about prorogations, which goes on for pages and pages.

Robbins translation:
Allied with Mercury, ?.in opposite positions he (Mars) makes them spendthrifts, avaricious, savage, venturesome, daring, prone to change their minds, excitable, easily aroused, liars, thieves, impious, perjurers, ready to take the offensive, seditious, kindlers of fires, creators of disturbances in the theatre, insolent, piratical, burglars, murderers, forgers, villains, wizards, magicians, sorcerers, homicides.

So for what I understand not all the ones having Mars and Mercury in connection are inclined to kill their spouse or some enemy, but it is needed Mars and Mercury dispose the soul, like Ptolemy calls it.

For example O.J. Simpson you mention, he could be a case. Mars disposes both Moon and Mercury by triplicity (according Lilly Mars is the only ruler of the Watery triplicity) and Moon is in Mars terms and face. Moreover Mars is in Mercury sign, against its hairesis, because it?s in the tenth house, so it should be not very nice to deal with.
It?s a very quick look, I did not even cast the chart, so it?s not very accurate, anyway just to give an example.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

10
So for what I understand not all the ones having Mars and Mercury in connection are inclined to kill their spouse or some enemy, but it is needed Mars and Mercury dispose the soul, like Ptolemy calls it.
This is very interesting and thank you for mentioning Ptolemy because I do remember Mercury/Mars being significant in violent death indicators, so it would make sense that they would be connected in violent acts too. I found it strange how Mercury would be connected, but an afflictive Mercury could show a deranged mind/character, which could cause such things.
First of all I would say that of many of his aphorisms not even Cardano would trust

I wondered about this, and his aphorisms are a bit ridiculous sometimes - almost comical in their exaggerations.