Depression

1
I asked this question myself back in January of this year. I used to date a man and we became friends. His depression, at least I think, was part of our breakup. I never seen his depression at its worse but I heard it was really bad once, panic attacks and all that. He keeps his new g.f. up all night because of his unpredictable panic attacks at night! I literally never seen him depressed. After we broke up I heard he was very bad for months. Anyway, I casted a horary chart to see how bad his depression is and if maybe one day he will get better.
A bit of history, back in '03 he had his first depression, its been on and off since then. We don't speak anymore, we had a fall out this year, around the time I casted this chart. But when I tried to reach out and reconcile as friends again, he passed on a message to his g.f. for me simply saying that his "health is fine", I took that message as to never contact him again. I am worried for his health, I can't help it. But there is a side of him that often plays the victim over and over again and he is at times cowardly and I don't atttribute his cowardice to his depression. Time has passed since I casted this chart. So things might have changed since then...
In the chart he is the 7th...Jupiter in Aquarius. Aquarius is in critical degree, Jupiter in his own sign I would say his depression will get better or intensify? But Jupiter is in his 12th, house of sorrow, perhaps at the moment when I casted the chart he was going through deep depression? Jupiter will enter his own house, perhaps being on his own and not caring about others. Jupiter will sextile Pluto, his emotions will be intense too.
Sun rules his 6th house, house of mental afflictions. Sun is in depressive sign of Capricorn. Mars rx in this house, perhaps he was at the time angry about something?
Since I asked this question I have to put myself in this scenario. Moon conjunct Sun...shows fears and anxiety. I am worried his depression will get worse. I am also worried of what the horary will tell me.
I do feel guilt that I should've been there more for him after we broke up.
That is my biggest regret in life. I don't think there is anything I can do to help and that is not my question. I want to know how deep is his depression and will it get better? Jupiter soon in Pisces, Jupiter is happy in Pisces. But Jupiter conjuncts Uranus...makes me think his depressive episodes will be unpredictable. Moon in fall and in Jupiter's detriment makes me think his depression is very bad and will not see a good change health wise.
The part I get confused is when Jupiter enter Pisces I wonder if he will be happy while Jupiter stays in Pisces.

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Re: Depression

2
November4 wrote:I do feel guilt that I should've been there more for him after we broke up.
You shouldn't! I'm pretty sure that you did all that you could. The fact that you' re still so worried about him and his condition says a lot about your good intentions and deep concern. The feel of guilt is, unfortunately, very common among family members or close friends and partners of depressive people although many of them actually need professional help themselves after some time. MDD is a very complicated condition that can often turn more than just one life into real hell- I've been there, my mother was diagnosed with MDD twice (an extreme example of depression) and I was actually taking care of her for 3 years during one of these phases, I know what it is like. The problem is- we can' help by providing professional care, we can only help as humans and relatives/friends, but that is just not enough. people diagnosed with recedive MDD often refuse to get the adequate treatment, the family members try to help the best way they can which is generally not sufficient and that is where the troubles begin.
But there is a side of him that often plays the victim over and over again and he is at times cowardly and I don't attribute his cowardice to his depression.
It's actually a symptom. One of the most common ones in MDD as a matter of fact- it is usually hard to get used to the fact that behaviour, attitudes even words and whole sentences can be symptoms. But they are! We see them as personality traits, personal beliefs, temperament...but they're not that. The victim role is always present. Again, been there, seen it ( didn't think I would survive it).
I think it's a very hard lesson to learn but, thanks to my mother's therapist, i learned that almost nothing should be taken personally.

I cast a few charts during the time when my mother was in a very bad shape for different reasons and in different occasions and each time, the relationship between the 8th and the 12th would be very strong and dramatic. Unfortunately, this chart puts the retrograde 8th ruler inside the 12th as well. Its retrograde motion is probably suggesting the recedivity of the condition (second phase). With his ruler cadent inside the radical 6th and his derived 12th and this shape of his derived 6th we have a very strong influence of the negative houses. His ruler is currently trapped inside the house of health and has recently been under the attack of the 8th ruler positioned inside the 12th or his 6th.
The orb of the Moon/Sun conjunction is very wide but the shape of the Moon is not very promising and it will, indeed, form a conjunction with the Sun soon and I would say that this phase is probably not finished yet.

When Jupiter enters Pisces he should start feeling better but, Jupiter is slow and cadent in this chart. The Moon/Sun application might be an indication of some sort of burn-out moment- the orb is roughly 13? and, given that the planets are succedant and that Jupiter is cadent, we are most likely talking about longer units of time. 13 months is approximately 1 year (1? before Jupiter enters Pisces) so, maybe, 2011. will deal some better cards to him. ;-)
Last edited by aglaya on Sun May 30, 2010 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

3
I don't htink his victim playing and cowardice is his depression. he has been this way before his depression. i say this because someone else close to me has depression and she is not like this at all! she is the bravest woman i have ever met but battles depression for several years now and also I have asked his closest friends/relatives about his life before his depression, I attribute it to his Pisces natal planets.

I do want him to find love, real love, and be rid of this depression. but i know there is no cure for depression and with this depression i do not think he is capable of really loving a woman because he feels no one could love him with his illness. I try to educate myself on depression and men are so different because they can't find the words to say what they feel, so I don't know. I also notice Chiron is conjunct Neptune, maybe some painful experiences concerning his spirituality?

4
Hello

On a technical note I'm not in agreement about Jupiter being slow. If it was near its retrograde time it would be slow, but it is near the Sun and it is moving faster than its average speed.

Also a planet in the final degree of a sign is considered traditionally to already be involved in the next sign. Jupiter is already on its way into Pisces and going from lacking essential dignity to being highly dignified. Yes he's still in the 6th, but that's normal because the type of difficulties he suffers from cannot be eradicated overnight so he will be in the 6th for a while longer.

When the chart was cast Mercury was very close to its 2nd station and the Moon although out of orb of the Sun was within a couple of days of eclipsing the Sun.

I'm not sure if you'd interpret 5th house in this chart as love affairs but IMO there is reason to consider its signification as about guilt ruining your enjoyment, November4.

Your significator and the Moon both behold the Ascendant and so do have access to life, despite being debilitated in other ways.

Whilst an eclipse is not favourable it is also the start of something new. With Moon and Mercury both seeming quite gloomy and heavy, I suspect the chart is pointing to your feelings needing tending, rather than his.

He is on his way into his own element after a period of peregrination, but during that peregrination he has had the benefit of your significator's reception by Triplicity. I see this as saying that you were in fact there for him when he needed you.

In Al-Anon they have a phrase that they use to help the friends and families of addicts and it seems good for all these overburdened Capricorn planets:

"I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it."

Regards

H.

5
November4 wrote:I don't htink his victim playing and cowardice is his depression. he has been this way before his depression. i say this because someone else close to me has depression and she is not like this at all! she is the bravest woman i have ever met but battles depression for several years now and also I have asked his closest friends/relatives about his life before his depression, I attribute it to his Pisces natal planets.
I once said this same thing to my mother's therapist trying to assure her that she was making a mistake :) - she then asked me a few very simple questions, one of which was, literally-? Has you mother ever bought a red or yellow car when she was feeling well? . It turns out that all of her female patients with similar diagnosis buy cars in these two colours when they "feel healthy". it's pretty strange but obviously true. Th point that she was trying to make (on an almost trivial example) was that the shade of this illnes is alwys present and that its symptoms can often be recognised even during the periods when depressive people feel great and are able to win some major life battles. People prone to depression have much in common and it goes beyond just the symptoms visible during the acute phase.
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, of course- quite the contrary; I'm saying this because I'm am aware of how easily they can make people close to them feel guilty and awful though they need not feel that way and, even more importantly- though they, themselves do not want their relatives and friends to feel that way. It's been almost 10years since my mother was first diagnosed with it, it's been at least 5 years since I came to terms with the fact that some aspects of her behaviour have been resonating the latent illness since ever and still, i'm not immune to such situations.
It may sound selfish, but I really sympathize with everyone who has to go through this as a "close person" - many people aren't aware of how hard it can be for people around the sick person.
I wish you both the best of luck and a lot of strength.
I also notice Chiron is conjunct Neptune, maybe some painful experiences concerning his spirituality?
Personally, I see blurry vision and drugs (medicines) here. Luckily, thee conjunction with Neptune is behind his back now.


On a technical note I'm not in agreement about Jupiter being slow. If it was near its retrograde time it would be slow, but it is near the Sun and it is moving faster than its average speed.
Hi, hand.
I should have probably phrased my sentence differently; what i meant was that his ruler is slower by nature and in this chart it is even cadent. Its current velocity was quite a good sign in this chart, i agree but I always take the nature of the planets into consideration and here we have a slower planet that he must have gotten as the ruler for a reason.
Also a planet in the final degree of a sign is considered traditionally to already be involved in the next sign. Jupiter is already on its way into Pisces and going from lacking essential dignity to being highly dignified. Yes he's still in the 6th, but that's normal because the type of difficulties he suffers from cannot be eradicated overnight so he will be in the 6th for a while longer.
It surely isn't the same when the planet is 10? and 1?away from the beginning of the new sign but personally, but a planet 1?away from its ruler ship does not feel the same way that a planet that has already entered it does. At least that is how I usually see it- its "score" will significantly change when it enters Pisces and it has not happened yet. To me, it seems that the wide orb of the Moons application and the cadency of Jupiter were supportive of this- it will be a slow process and the Jupiter is yet to experience some troubles on its pat before reaching the desired position.

Cheers! ;-)

6
Oh I see what you mean now about Jupiter and slow, thanks for explaining :)

The horary chart was cast on 13th Jan and Jupiter went into Pisces on 18th Jan.

In any case I think it's not good to focus on the man too much so I'll shut up about him now :) My reason is that things like depression have a strange way of sucking people into them like a black hole and I don't want to accidentally encourage that to happen more with November4.

Regards

H.

7
hand: why would you say its not good to focus on this man? i asked about him. i am not prone to depression, i am very optimistic person. i am not an arrogant person at all but i like ot believe that at least i 'cured' him, at least for the time we were lovers, because he did not have a sign of depression, or maybe him not having a sign of depression was a symptom?
but your comment on my guilt, 5th house, it is very true on my side...i do have hard time enjoying my current relationship because i feel i cannot help him and did not do enough.
i think his significator going into pisces soon and in fall of my sign, Mercury makes me think he doesn't care how i think anymore about his health. or maybe i am just being hard on myself again.

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Hello November4
why would you say its not good to focus on this man?
I didn't :)

I think it's natural that you would focus on this person, because you've explained in your original background to the horary that it's a very important part of your life experience, and I know from my own experience that it's not arrogant when you say that you and your relationship with him had a good effect on him because I've experienced exactly the same thing in my life.

When I said "I think it's not good to focus on the man too much" the emphasis really was on the 'too much' part - it was just because I and Aglaya were starting to focus on Jupiter, and apart from Jupiter not having a good sense of limits :lol: it's in the nature of things like depression to (often mysteriously and usually very subtly) make the ill person the centre of attention (even on message boards when they're not around lol) which takes all the power away from the healthier person, and in this case that's you.
or maybe i am just being hard on myself again.
I think there's a good chance of that being the case :)

I understand what you're saying about his significator going into the sign of your fall, and I understand how Virgo/Capricorn is pro at beating themselves up and not really extending the same support and assistance to themselves as they give to other people. Could you maybe be a bit gentler on yourself?

The chart isn't depicting you as shirking your responsibilities to him or failing to support him, is it? Or do the Virgo rising and Mercury retro in Capricorn in square to Saturn mean that you've been ducking your responsibilities and you need to become a beast of burden? :)

Or might they be saying that if you take too much on your shoulders you can eclipse all the joy and lose sight of what's essential?

There is always unfinished business to attend to. But does that mean you failed? I don't think so.

Regards

H.

9
With Moon and Mercury both seeming quite gloomy and heavy, I suspect the chart is pointing to your feelings needing tending, rather than his.
I didn't read through all of the comments, but that's actually exactly what I saw when I read this chart before, and one thing that held me back from replying earlier because I didn't want to upset anyone, but I don't think it's just Handn. When I think of earth signs, I think of melancholic humour, and Mercury tends to take on characteristics of the planets it aspects - it's squaring Saturn, planet associated with depression the most. Jupiter is not in an earth sign either, he's in an air sanguine one, and is a sanguine planet. Mercury is retro in a sign of Saturn, Moon in detriment, conj the node (which eclipses it and weakens it considerably), and, worst of all, the applying new Moon at the eclipse. Venus, a natural sig for love, is also combust, and the querent is located in the 5th, so feelings are likely unresolved for her. There is a strong Saturn influence for both people, but much more for the querent, especially the square that happened before and she is going retro back into it. Perhaps you are a happy person, but maybe the quesited takes from your life somehow and you should move away from thinking of him, rather than be pulled into the vortex.

I would say that Jupiter doesn't look very well at a late degree and conjunct Neptune (likely he is using escapism, like drugs or alcohol or is medicated, since he is also conjunct Chiron), also in the afflictive 6th (his 12th - he could even be getting medical attention), but Jupiter is very soon entering a better dignity, although Pisces could be more escapism, and he also avoided the opp to Mars in the 12th (maybe he thought of killing himself or tried but didn't succeed), so the worst may be behind him or he may have help from others. I think over all your help is unwanted, since Jupiter does not receive your planets in his fall of Capricorn, so efforts are fruitless, as the chart suggests.

There are similarities to Dajorok's chart, esp. the Virgo ASC and Moon-Saturn square. Moon-Saturn square is often associated with depression and low spirits.

Re: Depression

11
Julie K wrote:May I ask what exactly is MDD? Is it Manic Depressive Depression?

I ask as I have had experience in this area.

Julie K
Hi, JulieK.

It is Major Depressive Disorder though, unfortunately, unlike mild(er) Depression or depressive states, it is actually often accompanied by manic and even psychotic behaviour/phases. But, of course, every case is unique! Some patients only have the latter symptoms during the recurrent episode.