.. both your argument and Astrodienst's against it is --in my opinion-- "deeply flawed". I refer those interested to a detailed explanation here:

http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/essays/sidereal.html

I strongly disagree with you but rather than than debate this further here I will leave members to make up their own minds. This would be a good subject for a separate thread on the general forum.

Mark

When it comes to Solar Returns and transits to Natal Tropical positions Robert Hand advocated a precession-free system. He writes:

?I personally feel that the signs of the tropical zodiac give interpretive results that are more useful than those of the sidereal, but I recognize that it is possible to treat the tropical zodiac as if it were moving. In other words, one should treat the natal positions of the planets as if they were fixed stars. Since the vernal point moves backwards, the positions of the fixed stars move forward in the tropical zodiac. Opinions differs on this point, but many astrologers agree that at the very least, determining the positions of the natal chart corrected for precession helps significantly in timing events.?

Page 4. ?Interpreting Solar Returns.?

Sidereal astrologers work in the sidereal zodiac which accounts for precession. Tropical astrologers work in the Tropical zodiac which does not account for precession. This is why Juan is presenting his material in this thread in the Sidereal zodiac, because the SZ accounts for precession and the TZ does not account for precession. When it comes to precise timing of events, precession needs to be accounted for by the astrologer. This is what Robert Hand is explaining in his above quote.

Steve

When it comes to Solar Returns and transits to Natal Tropical positions Robert Hand advocated a precession-free system. He writes:

Thanks Steve. I was expecting a reply from you. I know this subject is close to your heart. However, as I just stated above I do not want this thread wandering into a full debate on this topic here. It would be a total distraction from the focus of the thread.

I wasn't aware that Robert Hand was open to this. Still, much as I respect the work of Robert Hand overall he is not Moses. His views ( if these still are his views?) are not reflective of the majority of tropicalists.

When it comes to precise timing of events, precession needs to be accounted for by the astrologer.

You , Juan or anyone else are at liberty to advocate sidereal or precession corrected techniques. I am certainly not getting into the tropical vs sidereal astrology debate here.

In all fairness though I ask you to acknowledge that the above statement is a personal opinion not a fact. As I suggested to Juan I think it would be interesting to open a separate thread on this in the general forum. I will do this when time allows.

Thanks

Mark

Following my discussion with Juan and Steve on precession corrected charts I have now created a separate thread on the general forum on the subject of the use of precession correction in tropical astrology:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6044

Mark

Hi
Interesting topic but like many such topics it faded away into the sunset. Chart I will present, the Jupiter Saturn Conjunction /SolarFire/ Nov. 18, 630 23:37:26 LMT 21n27 39e49 Mecca, Tropical zodiac. While this Conjunction took place months after the Jan 11, 630 date, Conquest of Mecca, I decided to take a look since it came at a time when both Medina and finally Mecca were in the fold. Major feature in chart, Moon Mars conjunction in quad 7H sticks out like a sore thumb. Equally as big, Sun on I.C. opposite MC square Asc., hinting to all the power struggles within Islam. Do the other charts give such obvious hints? Chasing dates we sometimes forget to look at and read the chart. We forget to ask does the chart give hints to what we know after the facts? Also, there is a major event in this chart that may not catch the casual eye. Can you spot it?

Really interesting stuff you can find on the Net so keep your eyes open. Conquest of Mecca.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca
At top of page says 11 Jan 630 Scroll down bit to section Conquest it says following>> The Muslim army set out for Mecca on Wednesday, November 29, 630 now scroll down to 6th paragraph it says >> The Muslim army entered Mecca on Monday, December 11, 630 The latter two lines fit well with the November 630 Conjunction don't they. At another link that I forgot to save, it listed same November December dates but year 629.

What I plan to do is present few event charts only using Secondary Directed /SDs/ charts. My main concern noting directed positions of Mc, Asc /by R.A. Naibod timing/, and progressed positions of Sun and Moon. Still, every planet is of concern via its house position and houses it rules and Essential Dignity of planets in degree of M.C. and Asc., among much else. I will try to make comments for each chart but do hope you join in and share your thoughts as to how the SD chart may shape up or not for said event. If you want to go deeper with other technique, please do. I am hoping we have gone beyond the debates in previous messages and let the proof of pudding take over via events compared to whatever chart you want to put up.

Events I will present follows. You can easily find events on net with simple search. I will not put up links, just to many of them. Siege of Vienna 1529, Battle of Vienna 1683, al-Wahhabi 1740 1744 and 1805, Ottoman Saudi War 1811-1818. More recent times, Arab Revolt 1916-18, Muslim Brothers March 1928, Arab revolt Palestine 1936-39, 1967 War, 1973 Y Kippur, Danish Cartoons 2005, Jan 2011 Arab Spring, July 2013 Morsi out. I think I have data for Munich 1972 but will overlap with Y. Kippur but 1972 very important attack on the World not just Israeli Olympians as this happened at sacred event, The Olympics. This attack first step towards resurrecting old Muslim Empire Spain Morocco in West to Indonesia in East and rest of the world. Was it great Italian writer Oriana Fallaci warning the world about this but they only laughed. Yet, Islam is experiencing the hick ups right now, blame it on living in the New Fools Generation. They /Muslims/ have forgotten the old saying from Baseball, Patience is the name of the Game.

Also note in older reports they often use term Arab this or that, substitute Muslim or if you prefer, Islamist. Many battles while sometime claimed to be about keeping trade routes open is about Islam taking control of Europe or an internal battle how strict or not one follows teaching of Islam. An example the Arab Revolt 1916 link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Revolt
see second paragraph.

Also, when looking at your favorite Muslim chart, do you see an end to Islam? While staring at this Conjunction chart letting my mind wonder, just for fun I came up with following. I declared Sun Apheta, Moon, destroyer when she comes to the anaeretic places of the Sun. Sun, at 29 Scorpio in Saturns bounds but those opposite in Taurus are dangerous. 29th degree Taurus ruled by Mars. So when SD/Progressed Moon comes to these degrees in square to Sun it is Good Night Irene. This a double blow to the Sun because destroyer Moon coming to Square of Sun also comes to Ascendant degree in Mars bounds. So I then added the major years of Sun 1461 to the year of 630 gives year 2091. With Baseball coming to an end I declared the non Muslim World would begin to gather a great Army ala Desert Storm around Monday April 2, Opening Day 2091. I then declared that when folks got tired of Baseball and pull out that famous song by Hank Williams is when the battle will begin. This would happen Sunday September 2, 2091 when the kids kick off the new Football season and everyone around the non Muslim world began singing, Are You Ready for some Football. Oh well I will put up a SD/Natal Tri wheel for those dates. Note return of both Angles to their natal place along with Sun to his place and for the Pluto Fans that declare nothing important happens unless he is involved, he comes to 2 Taurus the Antiscion of natal Asc..
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Oh, answer to question in first paragraph....
The 630 Conjunction, a Jupiter Saturn Heliacal morning rising. I would say if searching for a major visible event in the sky to announce/warn the world of what was coming, this Conjunction should do it.

Off topic, the coming 2040 Conjunction will have three such phenomena just days prior to Conjunction involving Ju/Sa, Mercury and Mars. The 2000 Conjunction on 28th gave us Ju/Sa at morning Heliacal on 29th, Mercury rising on 22nd and Mars setting on 9 of May. What does it all mean? Michaelb

hi michael,

thanks for drawing my attention to this fascinating thread where there are a few posters very knowledgeable on a number of astrological issues that interest me. after reading the full thread i was thinking that i didn't have much to say, but i am curious what the basis/purpose is for pushing your triwheel data out to 2091? it reminds me of what happens when you push a chart out 90 years using solar arc directions when all the planets are square the original position in the natal chart.

i liked your rationale for considering the importance of the ju/sa conjunction around the time of the establishment of islam as a religion. i was looking at the ju/sa conjunction in a biwheel with this chart you pointed out and found some of the connections quite fascinating, although aside from being able to draw ideas from just about any chart, i think it is premature to offer my thoughts on the overlap of these 2.. however, i will share the biwheel for others to contemplate... the bottom chart is the same put on a 90 degree wheel for further consideration.


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Hi
James for fun I asked the following question /Also, when looking at your favorite Muslim chart, do you see an end to Islam?/ That should answer your question about the basis/purpose. As to moving the chart forward, that clearly explained using major period of Sun, 1,461 years added to year 630 gave the year 2091.

To compare Solar Arc, its /uniform rate of movement/ to that of a Secondary Directed /progressed chart, no comparison. Also, the Solar Arc cannot give us vital info that SD can. The problem with such info /we do not always know how to read it. Example is to read the SD chart as a stand alone chart. Very few authors in past stressed that.

The SD charts planetary positions, aspects to one another often ignored while focusing mostly on aspects to natal. The SD chart as whole then became more or less an afterthought. Of course most authors commented on Asc moving from Sign to another, perhaps Sun also but beyond on that, SD chart, an afterthought. Below, something impossible to do with Solar Arc chart but as said, not always easy to understand what we see because no one has noted what I write below. We have as far as I know, no tradition reading SD chart in this way.

Something that has not caught on with Mundane astrology today or recent past is note planets around the Sun. Best example is to follow the game of hide n seek between Sun and Mercury, this for political events. Just as I note Conjunction was at Heliacal we note same for Mercury at various times of year. All the planets also will be in this phase with Sun. They will go into concealment and or make an appearance and so forth. Also to note planets 165 or 195 degrees opposite Sun. We do not see this as an aspect do we, no one considers planets in opposition /or conjunction/ when 15 or so degrees apart from Sun. This also applies to SD chart. 165 195 are planets that are morning setters or evening risers opposite side of chart to the Sun.

So then look at Tri wheel I put up, there is an approaching Heliacal in the SD charts. Do you see it? Hint then is this planet is in natal /Conjunction chart/ 8th whole sign house of violent endings and in quad 7H also a house of endings in aspect /near Heliacal/ with Sun in 4H also connected to endings in the Sign of planet that is doing what? One could ahead of time take a guess that at morning setting /see Mars at top of the two progressed charts/ opposite Sun, Mars retro going into concealment at morning setting making his last hurrah announcing to the world the end of Islam. Is that what he's doing? He is not coming out of concealment to make a great announcement like JuSa in Conjunction chart but the opposite. Michaelb

hi michael,

we had a conversation on solar arc directions and secondary progressions recently on skyscript. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7806
maybe you'd like to offer your views on some of the differences between them there as well.

i was unaware of a 1461 year cycle of the sun but upon trying to find out i see it is based on an egyptian cycle connected to the star sirius called the sothic cycle here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sothic_cycle.. thanks for explaining how you got from 630 to 2091!

as for the position of mars in the secondary progressed chart for 2091 and the end of islam, i am not so sure that the symbolism can be taken to make that type of major conclusion - the end of islam! mind you, maybe it will define a major turning point that will not be understood until much after the astro symbolism if indeed the symbolism from one predictive chart can be used to make such a grand conclusion.. what other predictive charts are you using to see this?

also it is my understanding that sec. progs were a more recent invention of placidus.. during the time of this 'event' in 630 the astrologers would have considered the aries ingress chart of great importance. i am not sure which aries ingress in the years around the 'beginning' of islam would have been singled out, but i would be curious to know others thoughts on this.

Hi
First event, Siege of Vienna 27 Sept. to 15 Oct 1529. Easy I/Net search. Another Battle to read about, Battle of Mohacs 29 Aug 1526, easy search. Mohacs article comes with estimated time of day when battle started and ended. For all examples I may put up I use Tropical Z.

To the Siege of 1529. Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent launched campaign 10 May 1529 article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna

Leading up to Siege of Vienna 1529 a few Celestial events to consider for 630 chart. The current /for year 1529/ Mars Saturn conjunction took place 27 Feb 1528 lasting two years, at 28Ar21 conjunct the 630 charts N Pluto 28Ar29 combine the three, very destructive indicator. See progressed Venus ruler of MC to this position below.

12 Nov 1528 Solar Eclipse 29Sc39 conjunct N Sun 29 Scorpio. Have no idea length of these Eclipse.
23 Apr 1529 Lunar Eclipse 12Sc28 on the Ju/Sa conjunction, Trine to N Moon 12 Pisces for 630 chart.
8 May 1529 Solar Eclipse 26Ta11 /all from Solar Fire/ conjunct 630 MC 26Ta44 opposite N Sun, sqr N Asc. To compare charts, Look to chart at start of this topic, charts Meridian, Scorpio Taurus.


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SDs/Progression the middle wheel MC /the action ambition of the chart/ directed to N Ju/Sa but first also making Trine to N Moon 12Pi48 a bit tricky to read with three planets involved in direction. Last aspect /major five aspects only/ by Mc was to Trine of N Mars 7Pi32 making Mars major or current transitional ruler for MC. His /Mars/ transits and a guess that Moon Jupiter and Saturn transits ones to watch. Examples of a couple of transits, first Mars then Saturn followed by a couple of Progressions.

Transit Mars on outer wheel 27 Sept 10Aq, on last day of Battle 15 Oct. 1529 to 18Aq meaning he squared the Conjunction during during Battle, also squaring Pr Sun 17Ta. The following can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna
START More rain fell on 11 October, and with the Ottomans failing to make any breaches in the walls, the prospects for victory began to fade rapidly. In addition, Suleiman was facing critical shortages of supplies such as food and water, while casualties, sickness, and desertions began taking a toll on his army's ranks. The janissariesbegan voicing their displeasure at the progression of events, demanding a decision on whether to remain or abandon the siege. The Sultan convened an official council on 12 October to deliberate the matter. It was decided to attempt one final, major assault on Vienna: an "all or nothing" gamble.[16] Extra rewards were offered to the troops. However, this assault was also beaten back as once again, the arquebuses and long pikes of the defenders prevailed.[17]END

Transit Mars reached 17Aq08 square Pr Sun 17Ta on Oct 12, 1529 around 10.00 UT.

Much of above and following line
START Suleiman launched his campaign on 10 May 1529 and faced numerous obstacles from the onset END
also may have been affected by transit of Saturn 28Ta01r at top of chart conjunct N Mc but even closer to N Asc by sqr.

Ruler of 630 MC, Venus, Progressed Venus at 29 Aries conjunct N Pluto 28Ar with Ma/Sa conjunction Feb 1528 28Ar21. Pluto power often sought for accomplishing some big objective, good or bad. Venus ruler of MC sought the power of Pluto but ran into Ma/Sa conjunction degree that proved a formidable opponent in 9H a foreign place.

Another indicator to this event, Directed Asc 29 Cap sextile N Sun 29Sc, ruler of Asc.. This may give hint to any optimism of Suleiman after victory at Mohacs.

A few notes potentials from 630 chart. The 630 chart Mars Moon carry negative vibes from 8th whole sign house despite both being Hayz /Solar Fire/. In Pisces deceitful, this taught in their instruction manual, the Koran. To keep in mind much of the negative that follows must be viewed as positive in sort of deranged way for the action ambition and success of the chart. Moon rules 12H in 8H, Mars ruler 4H 9H in 8H. The potential good and evil mixture of the two make a perfect fit. They are taught to use this mixture but show surprise when Mars in quad 7H excites opposition, strife when dealing with others who do not agree they are the chosen one's.

Mars in Pisces alternates between timid and bold. When outnumbered they are oh so nice and kind in their Kebab shops but once they outnumber, look out. More deceit found, Neptune in Virgo 2H gives potential to shyness and modesty, a typical trait when moving in opening the Kebab shop.

More timid and bold. See news in Paris where they block off entire neighborhood streets Friday prayer. Non Muslims scared to death to leave or enter their flats outnumbered by Hundreds of them in the streets. The dumping of Koran in Afghanistan many dead was reaction but when soldier went berserk not a word was murmured. Add Moon a liar and fraud eventually becomes exposed. Mars Moon rape, used as a tool to populate areas with new believers. Your Father a Muslim so are you. Mars ruling 4H or IC Scorpio, also the Conjunction that announced to the world via morning Helical rising what was coming add desires ambition known as the Sun, all under Mars rule, gives hints to dominate the home 4H but in this case, a worldly mundane chart, a desire to dominate The World / by fear and manipulation. Michaelb

hi michael

nice work! i sent you a message 4 or 5 days ago but i see you haven't received it yet. check you pm's..

i read an article earlier today with some very interesting comments on saudi arabia.. i was looking at the charts i have for sa and although i was only working with the chart for jan 15 1902, i re-read my copy of campions book of world horoscopes to see if there were some other important dates worth consideration.. it got me to thinking about the work you had done here on the islamic religion.. 1744 is a year that stands out in the history. from wikipedia "The emergence of what was to become the Saudi royal family, known as the Al Saud, began in Nejd in central Arabia in 1744, when Muhammad bin Saud, founder of the dynasty, joined forces with the religious leader Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab,[29] founder of the Wahhabi movement, a strict puritanical form of Sunni Islam."

i was curious to compare it with the ju/sa 630 chart.. the only connection of note for 1744 is the conjunction of saturn to radix neptune in the 630.. in so far as saturn and neptune have an association with religion, i thought it was interesting.. i am curious if you or others had more to say about saudi arabia in relation to the 630 chart you have emphasized.. thanks again for sharing your work here. i have enjoyed reading it..

Hi
I will present data for 1740 in this post and 1744 in next but will go back to the order I planned from start and that will go back to Battle of Vienna 1683. To James thanks for your PM. I only log on when posting something, rather seldom, so it never occurs to me to check PM. Also, have not had time to compare 630 chart with 2000 Conjunction but must surely be something there to gain with a little study.

On to another look at 630 Conjunction noting if the SD chart gives any indication to Wahabb movement in 1740 and 1744. There are no dates I can find for events either year or years prior. So, while aspects come due year 1740, at best they can only lead to speculation. So instead of wasting time speculating I will get to the point.

The triwheel dated 1 June 1740 for Progressed chart to split the difference that year. Again, not much to do with Transits lacking dates.

An aspect in 1740 chart that stands out giving hints to path Wahhab felt followers of Islam should be taking, a more strict version of Islam is Pr Sun sqr N Moon. With Moon in Pisces involved fits well with his cruel version of Islam. Some of you may remember old wood cuts showing School Master taking the cane to the bottom of school boys all under the sign of the Fish to show potential cruelty of Pisces?

Moon in Pisces and Moon ruling 12H punishment, can we throw in rule by tyranny, some call it fascism, forcible control or even condemnation of people. 12H least we not forget, captivity. Another Lunar example how Hayz Moon, a planet said to be in Tune with the Chart is there for the taking for those smart or daring enough to harness the power of chart to their advantage.

Sun involved, from natal position Sun is potential challenge from within to take control, given time, someone amongst them rises up, challenges authority from the 4H directed at 10H and announces /I am Holier than Thou/ 4H Sun opp 10H Midheaven. Later we also may see a similar happening when Mars is active being ruler of 4H. Michaelb

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michael,

i would note the position of pluto in the 9th house of political/religious ideology in the close 45 degree aspect to the same natal moon you discuss.. thus the sec prog of sun at 13 sag 29 makes an exact 135 aspect to natal pluto at 28 aries 29 for this particular year 1740 as well..

converse sec prog data has midheaven at 13 taurus 33 which directly opposes the jupiter/saturn conjunction which is the basis for this 630 chart as well.. converse sp jupiter is at 26 leo 12 which is square exact the natal 630 midheaven axis as well.. the data is more pronounced in the converse chart here.. for those who aren't aware of this - primary direction data moves in a similar direction to converse solar arc or sec. prog data.. the converse movement of the sec. prog sun will be exact on the jupiter/saturn conjunction for 1742 which is also within the time frame of the timing for the start to this ideological offshoot of islam (Wahhabi movement - a strict puritanical form of Sunni Islam) as well..