Mark wrote:Moving from the theoretical to the practical it would be good if you could take the opportunity to demonstrate historical examples which you feel demonstrate the accuracy of your selected chart.

Here are a few contacts taken from the collected posts in my site that I think are significant or validatory...

[NOTE: for clarity in the exposition I have removed this part of the post and reproduced the same contacts in subsequent posts, with the corresponding comments and references]

Right now, regarding the recent events in Egypt, I note that at the time of Mubarak's resignation (11 Feb 16:02 GMT):

Mars = 26,07 Capricorn
Sun = 27,41 Capricorn
Saturn of Islam = 26,27 Cancer

Alternatively, to make this more of a challenge what if I propose the events for you to test your chart with? I was thinking of really dramatic events in Islamic history. Still I suppose there are issues around what constitutes a validation of a chart.

It would be interesting (for me) to explore what possible "role" one can see this chart has in those events, although we know beforehand that we will disagree on what constitutes validation or on what is relevant.

Incidentally are you now moving over to adopting the chart proposed by 37 Cenned rather than the one previously suggested on your website? Can I therefore assume that the chart proposed by 37 Cenned is now the one you are advocating?

I am all open to consider that this may be an even better chart, but I am not "adopting it" until I have worked with it for a considerable time.

I will be exploring my own ideas further on the thread but you are more than welcome to put forward your case for the validity of your chart in practical astrological terms here.

Like you, I don't think that there is only one collective chart that is superior to all others, but I am definitely interested in finding more significant correlations to this chart, so bring in the dates and I will see what I find.

BTW, this is not "my chart", I am just following others who brought it to my attention and consider it an important or useful radix for Islam.

Juan

Juan wrote:Right now, regarding the recent events in Egypt, I note that at the time of Mubarak's resignation (11 Feb 16:02 GMT):
Mars = 26,07 Capricorn
Sun = 27,41 Capricorn
Saturn of Islam = 26,27 Cancer

pursuing this a little more (all sidereal):

Sun/Mars conjunction (Feb 4 2011,16h41m UT): 20,37 Capricorn
Sun of Islam = 19,53 Cancer

which is 0,44' from the exact opposition, a very direct hit to the "heart" of Islam. Consider also that Mubarak's Sun is in (or around) 19,57 Aries sidereal according to Mark's solar chart. When a week later Sun/Mars passed over Islam's Saturn, Mubarak fell.

Furthermore, the events happen during the days following the Jupiter return of Islam:

Jupiter Islam = 2,01 Pisces
tr. Jupiter solar eclipse Jan 4 = 2,07 Pisces
tr. Uranus solar eclipse = 2,08 Pisces

Secondary progressions show something intriguing that adds to the historical significance of the events in Egypt. The following are sidereal positions (with "bija") for March 15, 2011:

progressed Moon = 6,03 Taurus
progressed Sun = 7,13 Taurus
progressed Venus = 6,54 Taurus (retrograde)

This means that a new spiritual seed or design of destiny is being planted in the heart of Islam right now, and we are barely beginning to witness the first signs of a new 30-year period (a progressed New Moon) in Islamic history strongly marked by Venus, which I would describe as a restoration of Islam's most cherished values, an intimate sense of spiritual fulfillment. The progressed inferior conjunction of Venus was exact in early January 2011.

Juan

hello, as a contribuition i would like to share the Horoscope of Hegira according to Abu Mashar (The book of religions and dynasties,chapter eight pag 129 -Yamamoto and Burnett translation).

It's just a corroboration,since Mark posted the same chart earlier.
As usual,medieval astrologers cast an ingress solar Aries chart in order to do analyses of historic events in perspective.
Data:March 21,622 11:38 A.M. Medina-Saudi Arab(39e36/24n28)
Asc: 2 Cancer 12 M.C.21 Piscis 50
a Conjunction of Mars and Saturn,at 22 Cancer,falls in the Ascendant
Venus,planet of the Arabs,lies in the house of religion,house 9.
New Moon at house 10,mark the beginning of the religion.

All the best
Gerson

hello, as a contribuition i would like to share the Horoscope of Hegira according to Abu Mashar (The book of religions and dynasties,chapter eight pag 129 -Yamamoto and Burnett translation).

Hi Gerson

Ah you were able to afford it? I am really jealous.

It's just a corroboration,since Mark posted the same chart earlier.
As usual,medieval astrologers cast an ingress solar Aries chart in order to do analyses of historic events in perspective.
Data:March 21,622 11:38 A.M. Medina-Saudi Arab(39e36/24n28)
Asc: 2 Cancer 12 M.C.21 Piscis 50
a Conjunction of Mars and Saturn,at 22 Cancer,falls in the Ascendant
Venus,planet of the Arabs,lies in the house of religion,house 9.
New Moon at house 10,mark the beginning of the religion.

All the best
Gerson

That chart certainly deserves a lot more study considering the fact that the establishment of Islamic rule in Medina was the first time the Muslims took power anywhere. In the ten years following the Hijra, Medina formed the base from which Muhammad attacked and was attacked, and it was from here that he marched on Mecca, becoming its ruler. Even when Islamic rule was established, Medina remained for some years the most important city of Islam and the capital of the Caliphate. From a traditional perspective therefore the ingress of 622 may be seen as the foundational ingress for the establishment of Islam as a political entity.

The other ingress I have been meaning to look at is for 629 as this preceded the Muslims final victory and conquest of Mecca in January 630. There is an argument that the full coming to power of Islam coincided with them finally capturing Mecca and defeating their opponents in Arabia in early 630. In Islam this event is called Fatah-e-Mubeen, The Glorious Victory. It represented the final victory over the Meccan tribe of the Quraysh who had opposed the Muslims. Following this victory Muhammed and his followers visited the Kaaba and destroyed the idols of the various faiths represented there. Muhammad declared Mecca as the holiest site in Islam ordaining it as the centre of Muslim pilgrimage, one of the faith's Five Pillars. Muhammed also declared that no non-Muslim would be allowed inside the city so as to protect it from the influence of polytheism in future. This practice has continued to this day.

Mark

Hello Mark,i made a mistake in my last post.
The correct data is :
March 21,622 11:37 /,Medina -Saudi Arab
Asc 3 Cancer 24/M.C. 21 Piscis 34

All the best
Gerson

Hi Gerson,

I displayed this ingress chart at the start of the thread. However, as we are discussing it again here is the chart:
Mark

Juan wrote:Here are a few contacts taken from... Positions are all Fagan/Bradley sidereal:
Sun of Islam = 19,53 Cancer
Pluto of Israel (May 14 1948) = 18,38 Cancer
Node of Israel = 20,00 Aries

This connection between the foundational horoscope of Islam and that of Israel constitutes as far as I'm concerned a very sharp and concise astrological description of the relationship between the Islamic world and the State of Israel; it is also a paradigm of the meaning of Pluto in Astrology and an example of the accuracy of the sidereal reference frame.

To be really "perfect" in my mind, the Sun/Pluto synastric conjunction would have to be of less than 1 degree, and I note that in the July 15th chart proposed by CNN this requirement is fulfilled:

Sun of Islam (July 15th 622) = 18,55 Cancer
Pluto of Israel = 18,38 Cancer

But perhaps this exactitude is not needed because the State of Israel' nodal axis sharpens the 75' orb of the conjunction with the July 16th chart:

Israel true North Node = 20,00 Aries
Israel mean North Node = 19,39 Aries

Of this Sun/Pluto connection I wrote 10 years ago:

Since the Pluto aspect refers to the birth chart of Israel, then we have what can be considered a permanent situation, something that is "by definition" a question of life and death (Sun/Pluto). We know it is. We know how much "death" has to do with it: death to Israel, or death to Palestinians?
I can see in this Pluto contact the terrorism from both sides, the abuses of all kinds... it is a sign of a fundamentally irreconciliable division at the heart of Islam (the Sun), something that was Plutonically and militarily imposed from above, an insult to what is most fundamental to a Muslim. We also see that Islam becomes the personification of Pluto for the Israeli state, could we say the incarnation of its struggle for survival?
http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts ... mboyd.html

We can add here more perspective if we consider the Islamic Resistance Movement - Hamas, which issued its initiating statement on December 15, 1987. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... amas1.html)

Mars Hamas = 19,27 Libra

Pluto Islam = 16,52 Aries
Pluto Hamas = 16,57 Libra

The Iran revolution of 1979 also connects directly to the Sun of Islam (see http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts ... /iran.html ):

February 11, 1979 (1 p.m.) and charts the time when the government of the Shah fell. After the Army had read a declaration of neutrality on the radio, two more hours of tranquility in the streets of Tehran, and a voice was heard on the radio: "This is the voice of the revolution of the Iranian people!".

see http://www.iranian.com/History/Feb98/Re ... index.html

Moon of Iran's "voice of the revolution" = 19,53 Cancer
Sun of islam = 19,53 Cancer

Of this I wrote 10 years ago (see link above): "It is no surprise that the new Iranian regime identifies with a very conservative view of Islam (Moon exact over Sun)"

Feb 11 2011, when Mubarak fell, was the anniversary of this event:

Iran's Revolution Sun = 27,37 Capricorn
Saturn of Islam = 26,27 Cancer

So I think we have a similar situation here, where the solar opposition to Islam's Saturn marks the fall of a very long, oppressive regime.

Juan

Juan wrote: progressed Moon = 6,03 Taurus
progressed Sun = 7,13 Taurus
progressed Venus = 6,54 Taurus (retrograde)

Regarding the significance of Venus, it has already been mentioned in this forum by others, that it is a part of astrological tradition, Venus as Islam's "ruler". I would like to bring to your attention the fact that the Venus of Islam is brought out or illuminated directly in regards to contemporary events by the most famous terrorist of all times: Bin Laden.

The following is from http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts ... mboyd.html, which I wrote 10 years ago (and which, by the way, infuriated many of my readers). I think it deserves to be repeated here.

The "fatwa" (="judgement") was written by Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin and faxed to Al- Quds al-'Arabi in London where it was published in Arabic on February 23, 1998. At 12h GMT that day, the Sun was in exact conjunction with Jupiter (remember, it is the sidereal zodiac):

Sun = 9,57 Aquarius
Jupiter = 9,51 Aquarius

This conjunction is in exact opposition to Venus in the chart of Islam (NOTE: all references to the chart of Islam refer to July 16 622, UT 15h59m13s, exact sunset at Mecca (39e48/21n27):

Venus Islam = 9,45 Leo

I will not quote the text of the Fatwa but you can read it here:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

continuing quoting myself:

Quite objectively, one can say that the Sun/Jupiter is promoting, exalting, striving to fulfill or exploit the Venus of Islam. Sun/Jupiter and Venus signify a concentration of feelings, an exploitation or promotion of morality, religious feelings, a high ideal, an exaltation of what is most dear (Venus) for a Muslim.
In Islam there is a very personal and intimate relationship with God and with the "holy places". This personal intimate involvement can be seen in every Muslim going to his knees head on the ground in the direction of the holy place at the time of prayer every day, in whatever part of the world they are. This in my opinion is clearly Venusian, personal, intimate, ruled by strong affection and a feeling of submission. These are Venusian traits.
The Fatwa Sun is very directly involved making the exact opposition. You may think that the Fatwa (the Sun that illuminates this Venus) is a mere propagandist pamphlet, yet what it is saying in this context about the violation of their holy places by Americans is a very objective reality, and I don't see how it can be denied or ignored.

Another direct hit to the Venus of Islam that I want to comment is that of the Soviet Union as reflected in the 26 Oct O.S. 1917 chart. I use 0h UT as reference:

Mars of Soviet Union = 9,24 Leo
Venus of Islam = 9,45 Leo

Saturn Soviet Union = 20,38 Cancer
Sun Islam = 19,53 Cancer

the independence and sovereignty of Chechnya was declared on Nov 25, 1990. AT 12h UT that day:

Jupiter Chechnyan independence = 18,57 Cancer (at 12h GMT)

One can say that we are witnessing today (in the other Islamic ex-soviet satellites as well, not only Chechnya) the dramatic effects of these contacts. 10 years ago I wrote:

Did the Soviet Union tried to conquer (Mars/Venus) Islamic nations? Did it try to control and repress (Saturn) them? If it were not for the heavy and hard hand of Saturn, one would say that the Soviet Union and Islam were having a "love affair"... Mars conquers and demands, Venus submits or complies, but often ends up repudiating and leaving. ref: http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts ... henia.html

In the above link you can read that the second part of the Chechnyan War ignited in 1999, when hundreds of Islamic fighters --reportedly financed by Osama Bin Laden-- crossed to the neighboring Dagestan and used Chechen villages as shelter. The first group crossed from Chechnya on 7 August 1999: <<On 07 August 1999 group of between 200 and 500 armed men crossed the border into Dagestan early in the day and took up positions around three mountain villages. The Muslim insurgents quickly captured several villages in the remote mountains of the southern Dagestan region. On 10 August a council of Islamic leaders in the region met and declared Dagestan's independence. The declaration called for Muslims from Dagestan and Chechnya to fight until all infidels were ousted from Muslim territory.>>
I use 3 a.m. GMT 7 August 1999 as reference:

Sun = 19,28 Cancer
Mars = 19,47 Libra
Sun of Islam = 19,53 Cancer

Juan

Hello Juan,

On your website you state you work both sidereally and tropically. The majority of our members here do work tropically so it would assist a lot if you displayed your data in the tropical zodiac too. Just to confirm is your radix chart date/time exactly the same as the one I earlier displayed at the beginning of this thread proposed by Nicholas Campion in his Book of World Horoscopes?

Thanks

Mark

Mark wrote:Hello Juan,
On your website you state you work both sidereally and tropically. The majority of our members here do work tropically so it would assist a lot if you displayed your data in the tropical zodiac too. Just to confirm is your radix chart date/time exactly the same as the one I earlier displayed at the beginning of this thread proposed by Nicholas Campion in his Book of World Horoscopes? Thanks - Mark

Hi,

There is a small difference in the angles because the chart reproduced by Campion is that of Mark Lerner, calculated for Medina, while I use the coordinates of Mecca, but the difference is insignificant.

I wanted to write an explanatory note regarding my use of a sidereal zodiac, so I am glad you asked. I am aware that most members (by a large margin) of this forum work in the tropical zodiac exclusively, and I don't mean disrespect or lack of consideration by using a sidereal one. But displaying tropical positions would make all the contacts I am mentioning disappear, they simply do not exist in the tropical reference frame.

It is not important to me what sidereal zodiac I use. The Fagan/Bradley zodiac is for convenience and clarity only, as a sort of "standard". It is possible to represent (or reproduce) the positions in a so-called "precession-corrected tropical" reference frame, but by experience I know that this creates confusion because of the the way these are often handled by the usual atrological programs, and this practice is generally not well understood.

In a precession-corrected tropical reference frame, one date is the radix and is displayed normally (tropically), but all the transiting tropical positions must be shifted by the amount of accumulated precession from the time of this radix,so these transits won't be recognizable tropically, or in other words, given the large amount of precession accumulated from A.D. 622 (about 19 degrees), they simply do not exist.

If you still think it would be useful, though, I will add the tropical equivalents, or perhaps only the precession-corrected ones.

Juan

Hello Juan,

If you want to send me the time for the chart you are using I will display this in the Fagan-Bradley zodiac here. Equally, I will present the same chart tropically. I am personally, a 100% tropicalist so would like to look at the chart that way too. I believe others who have used this chart are tropicalist too. I dont use precession corrected charts myself and I suspect the majority of our members dont either.

More generally, I am researching a large number of dates in Islamic history for other astrologers to use. These cover pivotal dates throughout Islamic history. I will post my research up here when time allows. Hopefully, this will generate some discussion and assist people's own research whatever zodiac, house system or chart they are examining.

regards

Mark

Mark wrote:Juan, if you want to send me the time for the chart you are using I will display this in the Fagan-Bradley zodiac here. Equally, I will present the same chart tropically.

Thanks for the offer, Mark, I think it would be a good idea. I gave the data in a note when speaking of Bin Laden's Fatwa above: July 16 AD 622 at sunset in Mecca (38e48/21n27), LMT 18:38:25, UT 15:59:13. As mentioned before the UT can vary significantly depending on the software used. I have no problem accepting the fact that very few are interested in working sidereally.

Your research on dates sounds great.

Juan