skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Combustion or /and Affliction?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
RegulusAstrology



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 147
Location: USA

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clelia,

What I suggest are raw impulses of a combust planet's function when it approaches the Sun is not inconsistent with hidden. Raw impulses can be acted in private out of the public eye.
_________________
Dr. H.
World Class Research in Medieval Predictive Astrology
www.regulus-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb!

I tried to quote your post but it was said "the post does not exist!" May be it was combust? Laughing
you wrote:

Quote:
In my opinion, no, the Sun is not afflicted by the malefic. The weakness that a planet suffers during combustion philosophically relates to the end of its synodic cycle, where the vitality given to it by the Sun in the previous cycle has become exhausted.


This is a new and refreshing perspective! Thank you for bringing up this idea. For me it was a real insight! THIS makes sense! You don´t know how much your words clarified my doubts. I have to think a lot about that.
So the problem of combustion has not to do with visibility, hu?

Quote:
Hence the benefics cannot be benefic and the malefics cannot be malefic


And how do you see the situation of the houses they rule? Is it a good thing to have a malefic combust, if he rules "bad houses" because the ruler can´t do any harm? If the answer is positive, in the case they rule the 10th, for example, being combust and weak would be a terrible thing for carreer( provided that other planets were not giving their testimony, of course) ?

Quote:
In all cases the combust planet is simply weak and unable to express its essential strength. The Sun is the source of the vitality and is never afflicted by its conjunctions with other planets – the benefics cannot benefit the Sun in their conjunction, and the malefics cannot hurt it.


It is coherent:-)

Quote:
that the vitality and animation of all the planets is originated by the Sun, which acts as a pulsating heart to the cosmos and passes influence to them (in the same way the Moon distributed the influence throughout the Cosmos).


I maintained the quote, because it is really beautiful!

Quote:
I have seen other traditional authorities strongly disagree with the notion that a planet can be protected from combustion because of its sign placement. I’m sorry to say though, that I didn’t note the references. They certainly exist and I’ll add them here when I find them again.


Many thanks for the important contribution, Deb. It really brought a new light on the topic!

Clelia
_________________
http://www.astrologiahumana.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuzuru - thanks for the ref!

I am going to write that down. My trouble is that I usually find one thing whilst looking for another, and then later I remember reading things but its all a blur for sources. I've seen a few similar references which suggests that this has always been a point of controversy, so worth taking the trouble to reference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RegulusAstrology wrote:
Clelia,

What I suggest are raw impulses of a combust planet's function when it approaches the Sun is not inconsistent with hidden. Raw impulses can be acted in private out of the public eye.


Thank you for clarifying this point! :-)

Clelia
_________________
http://www.astrologiahumana.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 970
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
Quote:
I have seen other traditional authorities strongly disagree with the notion that a planet can be protected from combustion because of its sign placement, and I agree with them. But I’m sorry to say that I didn’t note the references.

Abu Mashar

I, 179. The reason why people who say that a star which becomes burned in its own domicile or elevation does not offend, are mistaken.
Some people say that when a star becomes burned in its own domicile or in its own elevation it does not cause offence. However ,when Saturn, which is cold and dry becomes burned, it is similar to stone which being burned by the fire, decays and breaks .When Jupiter becomes burned it is similar to gold that melts and when it moves in the rays of sunlight its pure substance takes on a red hue. Then, when Venus and the Moon become burned they are similar to the quicksilver that if we throw it into the fire, the fire escapes from it like from something different from its nature and is not able to tolerate it.

http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.testi.metafore/eng.metafore.html


In the medieval literature there is something called "peregrination" which is fundamentally the opposite to being in domicile, exaltation or any of own places. A peregrine planet is a "wanderer" - sort of like Valens' "being away from home lot" which is a harsh, Saturn / Mars lot, cast out into the desert where the Sun can get at it. When in its own domicile, it is in its own house and Schmidt says that it has its own resources along with it for protection. It does not seem consistent to me to ignore what peregrination means without also including the concept of domicile because in one case the planet is away from home, in another it is in the place of a sect mate where it has help from others, or it has no help at all (peregrine). These two concepts imply each other and if one is true then the other is as well because you can not have a "being away from home" without having a home. And if a home can't protect you, then what good is the concept of domicile? One has to be divorced from the anthropomorphic paradigm to think contrary to this.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Combustion or /and Affliction? Reply with quote

Hi Margherita:

Thanks for answereing back!

I have to sleep one night on all the new ideas Laughing

love

Clelia


margherita wrote:
Hello again

Clelia Romano wrote:
. But my question on combustion with malefics concerns not only the malefic and his strenght, but also if the Sun himself is afflicted by the conjunction with a malefic. If the Moon would be afflicted by Mars, why the Sun will not? If the answer is positive the houses/signs ruled by the Sun, i.e. Aries and Leo would be afflicted. Clelia


I would say yes, the Sun is damaged. Ephestio says that Mars inclines the Sun heat to destruction.
And Ptolemy about children not reared

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb54.htm

So Mars invisible after his setting gives a very long drought. (I have not the source, it's something from CieloeTerra entourage)

Moon is mostly afflicted by Saturn, because of opposite hairesis, as the Sun with Mars,

p.s I saw Deborah post Embarassed

I agree with her that here the problem is more Mars than the Sun, because the phase to the Sun is very important in considering a planet.

margherita

_________________
http://www.astrologiahumana.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clelia
Quote:
So the problem of combustion has not to do with visibility, hu?

Yes, the visibility is important too. It’s all connected in the symbolism – just as we normally expect the colour, light and brilliance of the planet (or star) to have meaning. The planetary light alters according to phase, and the principle is always the greater the light the more forceful the astrological influence. When the planets are conjoining the Sun they are far from Earth, so even when they become visible, the light is at its dimmest, reflecting the weaker expression of their influence.

Quote:
And how do you see the situation of the houses they rule? Is it a good thing to have a malefic combust, if he rules "bad houses" because the ruler can´t do any harm? If the answer is positive, in the case they rule the 10th, for example, being combust and weak would be a terrible thing for carreer( provided that other planets were not giving their testimony, of course) ?

If I were looking at the 10th to judge a career matter and its ruler was combust, (and there were nothing else to consider – although there always is !) I would expect that to relate to some kind of vulnerable weakness, or change – the end of one position if the combustion was applying, or the start of a new position that is not yet secured.
I agree with Dr H’s comment too, that planets moving towards combustion can indicate a lack of control, but I see the principle of weakness as reliable and constant. The other aspects are important for describing how a planet behaves when moving into combustion – remember that this is symbolically a ‘death’ (followed by renewal) for the planet; and just like humans, these deaths are not always passive or serene. So an planet that is about to experience combustion is increasingly weakened, but can react with malice or panic (metaphorically speaking), but a planet that is separating from combustion, has lost its malice, but (to begin with) is too weak and sensitive to express its full influence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 970
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clelia Romano wrote:
Hi Deb!

I tried to quote your post but it was said "the post does not exist!" May be it was combust? Laughing
you wrote:

Quote:
In my opinion, no, the Sun is not afflicted by the malefic. The weakness that a planet suffers during combustion philosophically relates to the end of its synodic cycle, where the vitality given to it by the Sun in the previous cycle has become exhausted.


This is a new and refreshing perspective! Thank you for bringing up this idea. For me it was a real insight! THIS makes sense! You don´t know how much your words clarified my doubts. I have to think a lot about that.
So the problem of combustion has not to do with visibility, hu?

Quote:
Hence the benefics cannot be benefic and the malefics cannot be malefic


The malefics turn violent when they don't get their way and don't willingly go into the rays of the Sun. The question then becomes is the malefic overpowered by the Sun and purged of "impurities" yet (in the impious degrees)? Each planet has its own character in the way it faces death. Take Hitler's chart for example - with Mars and Venus on heliacal setting in the 8th.
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Curtis
Quote:
if a home can't protect you, then what good is the concept of domicile? One has to be divorced from the anthropomorphic paradigm to think contrary to this.

I don't think so, since the concept of domicile is also an expression of a planet’s relationship with the Sun. The synodic philosophy is very ancient but it was also at the heart of Arabian and Medieval natural philosophy as an explanation of how planetary influences are passed through 'celestial light'. In a nutshell, all planetary vitality originates from the Sun, which is (as Valens says) “the light of the mind” or (as Paulus says) “The Creator of the whole”’. Ibn Ezra puts it beautifully: “the Sun signifies life, for he is the greater luminary and the light of all the bodies”. So even though the combustion process is one that sees a temporarily loss of power, it is not one from which they need ‘protection’ because it is through this process that their power is regenerated.

But the loss of visible light is also important, since ancient astrology associates brilliance with power and the loss of brilliance with the loss of power. I like the point about the planet continuing to have an internalised energy though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 970
Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Hi Curtis
Quote:
if a home can't protect you, then what good is the concept of domicile? One has to be divorced from the anthropomorphic paradigm to think contrary to this.

I don't think so, since the concept of domicile is also an expression of a planet’s relationship with the Sun. The synodic philosophy is very ancient but it was also at the heart of Arabian and Medieval natural philosophy as an explanation of how planetary influences are passed through 'celestial light'. In a nutshell, all planetary vitality originates from the Sun, which is (as Valens says) “the light of the mind” or (as Paulus says) “The Creator of the whole”’. Ibn Ezra puts it beautifully: “the Sun signifies life, for he is the greater luminary and the light of all the bodies”. So even though the combustion process is one that sees a temporarily loss of power, it is not one from which they need ‘protection’ because it is through this process that their power is regenerated.

But the loss of visible light is also important, since ancient astrology associates brilliance with power and the loss of brilliance with the loss of power. I like the point about the planet continuing to have an internalised energy though.


I think there must be more than one context here. I find it difficult to reconcile the concept of synodic renewal with the idea of protection from combustion. I've seen some who seemed to get this protection and some who didn't (perhaps a nocturnally combust planet is better off?). I know malefics behave differently in the charts of eminent nativities and it may be something like this. The average person with a problem malefic bears the burden on their own, but the eminent, such as heads of state, their malefics tend to function by bringing down everyone around them until they themselves fall (if at all). There is also what is good for the planet, is not necessarily good for the native and vice versa...
_________________
Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4186&start=0

Just to throw an example here. Both in my delineation and Steven's the death of the father at an early age came up. The testimonies amount to more than the combustion of Mars, like the distance of Saturn and some other things, but in his take on the cause of death, Steven stated that it was probably a heart attack. Although one can not say for sure if it was or not, if Mars (rupture) is not able to hurt the Sun (father by position and universal significance, although a nocturnal chart; heart) this could not be (otherwise I did not understand his delineation properly). I find it odd to think that a planet merging with the Sun is so weak it can not exert any influence, since it is indeed at it's weakest magnitude, but can still barely be seen during the night (as during the day the Sun rules alone, and does not share).

Even in a total eclipse area, with the Sun at its weakest, his light is faintly present.
_________________
Paulo Felipe Noronha


Last edited by PFN on Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some reason my last post is missing some comments that I thought I had made about the final aspects before combustion adding detail about whether the ‘setting’ (ie combust) planet closes down its cycle with serenity or violence. I don’t have time to rewrite now but Curtis’s idea of malefics bringing down others as they fall is not one that I have any problem with.

Paulo your reference to mystery chart 18 gives us an interesting example to consider, since we are talking about someone who experienced the death of his father as a child. The chart has Mars closely combust the Sun in the 4th house and I assume your argument is that Mars must be afflicting the Sun (so cannot be weak), because you are taking the Sun as the significator for the father. Here is the way I see it: the 4th house cusp is in Capricorn and it is a night time chart so Saturn signifies the father by house-rulership and natural signification. Saturn is situated within 5° of the descendant (the setting angle) and the Moon is in the 8th house applying next to the unreceived sextile of Saturn – I think the indications of ‘father death’ are very strong, and emphasised by the fact that Saturn is disposed by a combust Mars, which suffers the combustion in his house. Hence I see the combustion of Mars in the house of the father as a natural signature for loss of the father figure.

In regard to whether Mars is weak or not, check the other houses it governs: the 2nd and 7th houses – we know that he died penniless and had at least six marriages, so even though Mars is in Capricorn (essentially exalted) it was not an effective planet, but one that managed its affairs weakly and with a sense of loss. However, I have seen combust Mars signify literal as well as symbolic deaths and the nature of the death accords with the natural expression of Mars – for example accidents, martial type illnesses, burns etc. So as I said above, even though Mars in combustion brings the signification of an ending, it acts in its own way. But it is weak in that it can’t impress its influence upon others, or give its disposition to them – hence the principles such as return of virtue.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quoting Deb:

Quote:
have seen combust Mars signify literal as well as symbolic deaths and the nature of the death accords with the natural expression of Mars – for example accidents, martial type illnesses, burns etc. So as I said above, even though Mars in combustion brings the signification of an ending, it acts in its own way. But it is weak in that it can’t impress its influence upon others, or give its disposition to them – hence the principles such as return of virtue.


It´s interesting that we are talking about the end of the synodic cycle of a planet meaning death, and today the Moon is initiating a new cycle, so she is combust. But I chose this special part of Deb´s post, because when I initiated this discussion I had doubts relating to a chartin which Mars was n Virgo, in the 6th house, entering in combustion. The chart pertained to a person dead in a flight that crashed against the WTC, at 11th of September. The Ascendant was Aries. So the ruler of the Ascendent was weak being combust ( besides being cadent) and the Sun, the exaltation ruiler of the Ascendant was weak as well, accidentally.
I think that Deb´s words explained well the situation.

Clelia
_________________
http://www.astrologiahumana.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree almost with everything has been said here, but still I'm not sure that Mars does not affect the Sun.

Here, as Clelia pointed out, are in front about two different threads, one about Mars and the other about the Sun.

About the qualities of Mars there is no doubt that the phase to the Sun is very important. They teach this in Cieloeterra because there is no author - and Ptolemy in the first place- who does not mention the phase.
A phase is the first thing to see in a planet, because as Deborah wrote everything on the Earth depends on the Sun.

But what about the Sun? The Sun is giver of life. If Sun is damaged there is not life at all.
This is the meaning I believe of the chapter about "children not reared." But it's difficult to read without any guide. I saw (not here obviously) the funniest reading of Tetrabiblos.

But Lilly puts it in plain words. CA III, 103, If the native is like to live long or not.

If both the Lights or one of them, especially that of the time, be afflicted in any angle by the malignant aspect of an Infortune (wherein you must observe, that the Sun is most afflicted by his being in Conjunction with Mars, the Moon by her Conjunction with Saturn; but the Sun is more afflicted by Saturn in his Opposition, and the Moon by Opposition of Mars;) if together, I say, with the affliction of either of the Lights, the Lord of the ascendant be Combust, or dangerously any otherwayes afflicted,without doubt the Child then borne will not live long, &c.

Now in this chart we should say that this is night chart, so Sun is not the light of the time, but in every case not a good sign.

margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
I agree almost with everything has been said here, but still I'm not sure that Mars does not affect the Sun.

............
But Lilly puts it in plain words. CA III, 103, If the native is like to live long or not.

If both the Lights or one of them, especially that of the time, be afflicted in any angle by the malignant aspect of an Infortune (wherein you must observe, that the Sun is most afflicted by his being in Conjunction with Mars, the Moon by her Conjunction with Saturn; but the Sun is more afflicted by Saturn in his Opposition, and the Moon by Opposition of Mars;) if together, I say, with the affliction of either of the Lights, the Lord of the ascendant be Combust, or dangerously any otherwayes afflicted,without doubt the Child then borne will not live long, &c.

Now in this chart we should say that this is night chart, so Sun is not the light of the time, but in every case not a good sign.

margherita


Did Mata Hari consult Lilly Idea

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Mata_Hari

Look at Sun-Mars and Moon -Saturn.It seems she got shot because facts did not come in the way of a good story Shocked

It can also give more energy than one can contain:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Emerson,_Keith

PD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 3 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated