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Younger vs. Elder Siblings/Children

 
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:13 pm    Post subject: Younger vs. Elder Siblings/Children Reply with quote

In Vedic astrology they give the 3rd house the younger brother/sister, the eldest the 11th. I can't seem to find a reliable source for traditional Tropical/Western derived rulerships. I read a theory somewhere online, quoted second-hand from Robert Hand's "On the Judgement of Nativities," that an elder brother/sister are assigned certain planets and also (Dorthean) triplicity lords of the 3rd.

I then wonder about younger/elder children, which might be under a similar method. This could pertain to both horary and natal.

If anyone knows of any sources on how to derive these houses, or might direct me to any threads where this has been discussed previously, that would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit,

I was looking via the web; at the moment no good sources.

However it's in Lilly's CA under third house elections, and Lilly covers alternating houses to locate various siblings. This also is for marriages, jobs, courtships, etc.

The concept is the 3rd is your oldest sibling, the 5th is the next in age, then the 7th, etc., and you eleminate yourself from the ranking in siblings.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, both.

My first astrology teacher was supporter of this approach (the 11th for the siblings born before the Native ; elder siblings). I know that he used to study Vedic astrology for over 20 years and it wasn't the only time that I find his approached in the scripts of Jyotish astrologers ('tho, I haven't read many).
I don't really know any more what happens when we want to "find" the second oldest brother for instance and whether we should derive the houses from the 11th in that case (he never told me, only few people have more than one or two siblings nowadays Smile ). Personally, i tried to use this approach many times and I never found it to be perfectly precise- i'd always have to include an additional element and even then, the 3rd seemed like a much better solution.

The option mentioned by Clinton Soule is commonly suggested by modern authors. Many astrologers love this approach (the second house from the relevant house is the house of the "next"; 9th for the 2nd marriage, 5th for the second sibling etc.). again, I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of that principle alone either. Not in the version in which we completely exclude the radical house.

What seems like the best option to me is Lilly's approach (now this is so humble of me, isn't it, I'm saying that Lilly was right! Laughing ) and his approach is actually very flexible. He doesn't say much in the chapter regarding the 3rd house maters but I think that the approach that he favours in the chapter about the 7th house matters (marriage in particular) is applicable to all situations where we need to use a single house in order to get informations about more than one person. WE should simply start from the house and see what we have there. A planet occupying the relevant house can be the ruler of the other sibling (the characteristics of the planet will tell which one). Also, the applying aspects that the ruler of the 3rd makes, can help us determine whether the person has more than one sibling. It's actually much easier with the 3rd than it is with the 7th since the clients are usually grown up people and can easily confirm if any of our assumptions sounds recognisable.
The quality of the aspect (dexter vs. sinister, applying vs. separating etc.) can be examined too as it can often suggest whether a specific person is younger or older.

The more I think about his book, the more I'm sure that the biggest value of Lilly's work is not hidden in the quantity of the informations that he had left us but rather in his instructions on how "to use our brains"- nothing is ever black&white in his delineations despite all the aphorisms and rules that he wrote about.
So, basically, i would simply start from the 3rd.


Last edited by aglaya on Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:04 am; edited 2 times in total
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Goca



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 948
Location: Srbija

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we need to distinguish between brothers, take lord 3 for the eldest, or the one you happen to be thinking about, and the 3rd from the 3rd to show the next one. So we regard the next one as 'my brother's brother'.
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Goca
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http://fensi88.livejournal.com/
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goca said:

Quote:
If we need to distinguish between brothers, take lord 3 for the eldest, or the one you happen to be thinking about, and the 3rd from the 3rd to show the next one. So we regard the next one as 'my brother's brother'.


Goca, I hate putting you on the spot, but I tried to find this alternating the houses in CA II last night for brethren; I know I've read it or something akin somewhere in Lilly.

Many Moderns in their writtings misunderstood Lilly as I know I do from time to time. That's why I only use Modern books I have collected in the distant past as reference to Traditional sources.

But where in Lilly's works or of the Ancients does this concept or taking the 3rd from the 3rd for the second brother or sibling?

It makes great sense; a lot more than using every other house as I beleive Louis said in his first book.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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Goca



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 948
Location: Srbija

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is from my private correspondence with J Frawley.
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Chrissie Davidson



Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Bangor Co Down

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at a J Frawley Natal intensive in Fulda Germany June 2007 he said to use the Dorothean Triplicity Rulers to divide up the siblingings into elder, middle and younger. Maybe he has changed his opinion since then.
I have 3 brothers and 2 sisters, quite a lot in this day and age, it does seem to work with this method of who is who in my chart and how I get along with them.

Chrissie
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to get some clarity here. So renumbering the houses is not a traditional technique? In horary, I use it often, and it seems to bear the results. Just recently a friend asked me to advice who of 3 candidates is the best one for her to hire as a nanny for her kids.). I looked at the 6H, the 6 from the 6H, etc, and gave her the result, which turned to be accurate. Anyone can point me out in the right direction, does Lilly say anything about this?
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissie Davidson wrote:
I was at a J Frawley Natal intensive in Fulda Germany June 2007 he said to use the Dorothean Triplicity Rulers to divide up the siblings into elder, middle and younger. Maybe he has changed his opinion since then.
I have 3 brothers and 2 sisters, quite a lot in this day and age, it does seem to work with this method of who is who in my chart and how I get along with them.

Chrissie


I find this approach very interesting; I know of a few astrologers who use the same principle when examining the 2nd house and the development of their financial situation throughout their life (each Triplicity equals to a certain period of life) and with much success too.

There's another method, described by Ibn Ezra and it includes 3 rules of each house. I don't have the book at hand at the moment (it is “The Beginning of Wisdom” ) so i can't give you any references but I have managed to find a websites with enough informations about this approach to at least be sure that i'm not making a mistake.

According to Ibn Ezra 's system, each house has 3 rulers : diurnal and nocturnal rulers plus the co-ruler of the house. In a diurnal chart, the daily ruler is the first ruler whilst the nocturnal one is the second. The co-ruler is always the third.

Fiery houses

Day ruler: Sun
Night ruler: Jupiter
Co-ruler: Saturn

Earthy houses:

Day ruler: Venus
Night ruler: Moon
Co-ruler: Mars


Airy houses:


Day ruler: Saturn
Night ruler: Mercury
Co-ruler: Jupiter

Watery houses:


Day ruler: Venus
Night ruler: Mars
Co-ruler: Moon

In the book, the full list of symbolics regarding each house is provided but here, i will only mention his suggestions on how these three rulers and their meaning should be applied to the 3rd house and the Native's siblings in particular.

First ruler: older siblings, their dignity and state according to their places

Second ruler: middle siblings, their dignity and state

Third (co-ruler) : young siblings

Of course, many astrologers suggest that this list can be extended and that even the quality of the relationship with one's siblings in different periods of life could also be examined by using these three rulers (relationship with brothers and sisters in childhood would then get the first ruler etc.).
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Chrissie Davidson



Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Bangor Co Down

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure that is the book that John Frawley recommends to his students, it is on my to buy list. John also said to use this method to divide up the chart for 2nd house and 7th house matters, then did an example with Lilly's own chart and his 3 wives.

Chrissie
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