skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

I hate Divorce horarys!

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:35 am    Post subject: I hate Divorce horarys! Reply with quote

Fellow Forum Menbers,

Those of you who have a lot of water in your chart and are extremely highly intuitive about others, astro wise of course, may realize I'm a vehement traditionalist from a few of my prior posts, when it comes to maintaining a marriage. Like Pope Clement VII who refused to grant the scoundrel Henry VIII a divorce from Catherine of Argon on 'No Biblical grounds of adultery'; thus Henry created his own Church appointing himself as the absolute corrupted leader. I stand on this early Christian precept and hold tightly to the bonds of matrimony and the sanctity of the family as that Pope who held the line for those in Christianity.

However one who 'does Not' know my King, thus *not* under the Christian Law or Precept, who has her natal Lord of the 7th in the natal 4th, in Virgo, has had her Saturn Return, and like so many with their Saturn Return, her marriage is very unstable. As Venus came in with it's law of attraction, of love, romance, affection, and relationships, only to be compromised by Mar's Lucifer Ray of temptation and unbridled passion, with it's penalty of Discord, she and her precious husband are going thru the gautlet of dispair! :-cry

She asked me "Will I get a divorce?"

1:46 P.M. PDST 3 / 23 / 2010 Reno, Nevada,...USA

As many here are having trouble posting the horary horoscopes, I ask if any could post this under astro.dienst or another chart service as my square grid did not take.

astrolog -R -w _s -c 5 qb 03 23 2010 13:46 1 +8 119:47W 39:30N -os chart.txt

As this is her first horary with it's 28can42 rising, I think as Guildo Bonatus says 'she is testing her astrologer'; yet as often is the case that same sign and not the degree is ascending in her natal with her natal Moon also in the natal 12th.

The lord of the Asc., the Moon 8can30 is squaring Mercury at 12ar23 in the 9th, while the lord of the matter Saturn 1lib09 Rx is recieving a separating sextile aspect of slighly less than 9 minutes from Mars 1can17(cjt. the horary's asc.).

In light of our recent discussion on separating aspects to the lord(namely the 17 minute noted) I'm going to say *yes* she will get a divorce.

However, due to the Saturn Rx, lord of the 7th(which severely hinders the astrologer and he needs consultants upon the matter), I'm going to say her Husband will most likely back out of the divorce.

http://mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/aphor/aphor.html

"13. A Retrograde Planet, or one in his first station, Significator in Question, denotes ill in the Question, discord and much contradiction."

It is also my oppinion that both he and she will go back to previous loves as the lord of the 7th is Rx.

http://www.horary.com/sward/sward8.html

"We understand a Planet to be ill disposed, when Peregrine, Retrograde, Combust, Cadent from the Ascendant or house of the thing demanded , so that he beholds not the house or at least the Lord of the house, in this nature the aspect to the house is better than to the Lord thereof; so that any planet in his Fall or Detriment, may properly be called Destroyer or Obstructor, or Planet impediting."

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tobyn3.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=pzaPpyZFzpEC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq='horary+retrograde+significator'&source=bl&ots=79z12E30kl&sig=kmIVzbYpJs49V58de5oWwdrGohw&hl=en&ei=YYqqS_jENJT0sQPn-tjiBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q='horary%20retrograde%20significator'&f=false

http://askchristine.wordpress.com/2008/05/22/mercury-retrograde-in-gemini-good-news-bad-news/

"In horary, a retrograde significator indicates that someone or something is going in the wrong direction."

As stated the astrologer is under obstruction due to the Saturn Rx, lord of the 7th, but it is my limited oppinion that the couple will get back together if not back out of the Divorce during the process.

And for those of you so in tune, transiting Saturn is approaching another cjt. to her natal Saturn(lord of her natal 4th) as it re-enters Virgo.

I would appreciate any insights that this constricted Astrologer has missed due to the horary!

Clinton Garrett Soule
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tanit
Moderator


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1115
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



I'm not sure I understand the background. The two people in question are married, the querent being the wife - both have had extramarital affairs, and she wants to know if this will lead to divorce? Do they each know about the flings? If she has 7th ruler Saturn in Virgo, she's had that long Saturn return with a Uranus opp on the other end. Saturn just went back into Virgo, so perhaps this might make things come to a head - make or break things.

Are children involved in the scenario? Mars being the 5th ruler on the 1st in Leo could mean children on her mind maybe, but I guess it could be their affairs being an issue here.

Moon in domicile would be nice if it wasn't in the 12th, so close to the south node (within 12 degrees eclipses the Moon too), and out of sect/hayz. The Moon is a very changeful planet too, especially in a moveable sign and accidentally debilitating house, so perhaps she is emotionally unstable. Moon-Sun and Moon-Saturn square on both sides is not nice for her (there's a T-square there, actually a T-cross if you count Pluto), and she really must be going through a tough time, possibly clinically depressed. Both parties have essential strength, but are in cadent, fallen houses. Seems like both maybe have the ability to make the marriage work but have neglected each other and are focusing on themselves.

The Moon-Saturn square could indicate divorce. Moon-Saturn square is separating but they are both in cadent houses, and Saturn might reject Moon, since it's in the sign of its detriment in Cancer. In my experiences, cadent houses don't really change circumstances so easily though, since the people involved are somewhat boxed in (especially Moon in the 12th). This might suggest continued struggles and no end solution, or at least it feels like that. Like the querent, I have Cancer rising (also with Moon-Saturn square, Saturn in the 3rd). Moon-Saturn squares in such places suggest coldness and not communicating properly, especially with a 12th house Moon (might also signify worry or depression, maybe even suicidal thoughts). Saturn in the 3rd can be pretty silent and stubborn, Moon so watery might relate too much on an emotional level and not rationally. Perhaps Saturn is stubborn about not getting a divorce when it might be a good idea (hence the retro internal struggles for Saturn and not liking what Moon is offering in Cancer).

The Mars-Sun-Saturn aspects is something that is going on in another recent thread, so that might be something worth reading for you. Saturn in particular for the quesited is almost the same.

It seems like most of the difficult aspects are of the past, with the exception of the Moon-Merc square and Mars on the ASC. I'm curious what Jupiter represents, since it seems like one good thing to focus on in the chart for the querent, and the trine from Moon is the last aspect before the Moon changes signs. Jupiter in the 9th - maybe a revelation of some sort. Maybe they need to see a counselor or some sort of mentor/religious person.

Saturn is also hayz, although in sect, and has no future aspects going on and doesn't really seem to have much intent in making it work, being so slow and also retro, at least to me. There is an ASC-Saturn sextile, but that never leads to much in the horaries I have seen.

With such a late degree rising and the querent-quesited so contentious in a square aspect, with Saturn rejecting Moon, I wonder if the querent is better off without this person in her life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand that such questions disturb you, Clinton Soule, and I am familiar with your general attitude . But, sometimes, we just have to obey to the "rules" of our society- it's the people and their actions that we sometimes disapprove with, not the astrological analysis of such actions. I believe that it is important to always keep in mind that you're not helping someone to make damage but that you're just HELPING SOMEONE by giving them the answers that they can use constructively. Divorces, marriages...? We can't change their lives. Gynecologists make abortions and at the same time provide medical help for women who cannot have children every single day- many professions suffer from this "condition".
For what it's worth, a good astrological analysis can often help people to see the things clearly and to avoid making a mistake; it is worth keeping in mind that, when a question of this kind comes along, the chances of actually helping the person to save her marriage (if that is the best solution) regardless of how she phrases the question, are very high.
But sometimes, a divorce will turn out to be the least important thing - handling charts of victimised women who cannot gain their freedom is something that no astrologer likes to do and, from personal experience, i can tell you when I see that a victimised person will not be able to find her way out of the situation (marriage) in the most proximate future, I usually can't get her story out of my head for days.

But even when it comes to those more "casual" situations (no domestic violence, no kids etc.), we need to keep cold-headed approach.
Imagine my position; according to the latest official statistical analysis, 53% of all the marriages in my town falls apart (and most couples separate within the first 5 years of marriage).
53%!!!! Of all the couples who got married in the period from 2000. to 2009., only 31% is still officially married! Divorced people are the majority! Those people are my clients!
I have a colleague who lives in South America and who hasn't had a single case of a divorce chart in 3 years.


Tanit wrote:

The Moon-Saturn square could indicate divorce. Moon-Saturn square is separating but they are both in cadent houses, and Saturn might reject Moon, since it's in the sign of its detriment in Cancer. In my experiences, cadent houses don't really change circumstances so easily though, since the people involved are somewhat boxed in (especially Moon in the 12th). This might suggest continued struggles and no end solution, or at least it feels like that.


The whole chart seems to be confusing isn't it?! Which is why I believe that this late ascendant should be taken very seriously!
Cadency, squares and separating aspects, yes...but this does not necessarily imply a divorce, maybe it is just saying that some things will be or have already been left to the past. Extramarital affairs, warmth and coziness of married life...

I wonder what it is that the Querent actually wanted to know!
The Moon is trapped inside the 12th where it feels awful but it is essentially strong. The placement of the Moon can often reveal the area of the Querent's biggest interest and, in this chart, I'm not sure it is only her marriage that she had in mind. Of course, maybe the circumstances have pushed her into this most unwanted place and maybe this position is descriptive of her current state of mind rather than of the general potential but, whicheverof the two, this placement along with the late Ascendant calls for severe caution.
Maybe she has already come to terms with the fact that some things could not be changed, maybe she is afraid of hearing the answer, maybe she has already said goodbye to her marriage...hard to tell. but the chart is confusing.

Both rulers are interestingly strong and weak! Smile Saturn is retrograde and, in this situation, it would be interesting to know more about the husband's (or the second spouse's- like tanit, i gather that the Querent is a female) interest in preserving the marriage. Unnatural motion makes me think if he is actually the one who is less involved in all this. At the same time, it's the Querent's ruler that is leaving him behind and there have obviously been some stressful activities or events involved.

But there is something very interesting in this chart. Though this mars on the Ascendant does not bode well, it is actually the ruler of the 5th cusp and the activities represented by this house just might be still very present in her life. Another thing is that The Moon (L1) and Jupiter (the ruler of the interception inside the 5th) are both beautifully dignified and that they are actually applying to each other. If the perfect aspect were possible (which, in this situation, is not the case), the Moon would actually cast a trine onto this Jupiter from the point of the exaltation of Jupiter (15° Cancer). Many thin gs in this chart seem to involve the 5th house activities. But this application is stopped by the application of the Querent's ruler to Mercury; Mercury rules the 3rd (communications), it is placed on the 10th cusp (where the secrets become public) and it is a stressful aspect . Mercury itself is a "chatty" planet and I'm not sure if this is an indication of a gossip or similar inconveniences.
4 units of time could be a month if not 4 days- has anything of the kind happened to the Querent in the meantime?

But, the fact is- we have a very late ascendant and it should be saying something.


Last edited by aglaya on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit said:

Quote:
I'm not sure I understand the background. The two people in question are married, the querent being the wife - both have had extramarital affairs, and she wants to know if this will lead to divorce? Do they each know about the flings? If she has 7th ruler Saturn in Virgo, she's had that long Saturn return with a Uranus opp on the other end. Saturn just went back into Virgo, so perhaps this might make things come to a head - make or break things.

Are children involved in the scenario? Mars being the 5th ruler on the 1st in Leo could mean children on her mind maybe, but I guess it could be their affairs being an issue here.


Yes, she is both the bride and our querant. By her confession she has had an affair, and I'm sure Tanit that you and others see it in the horary of her Husband's sexual loyalty(???) :brows

In consulting her I have advised her she must tell him as she natally has a Capricorn 7th, and as stated her natal 7th lord is in the natal 4th/virgo. I've tried to explain to this child of the Creator that with this Saturn 7th she and he must live by the rules of ethics. Unless some of my contemporarys see it within the horary, I haven't looked for that factor as of yet of whether he has been unfaithful.

Tanit, she has a son who was concieved out of wedlock; thus he chose to marry her yet the drain of responsibility has been wearing on him. Yet by her words, he is the responsible one, always being strict about the realitys of raising this child. Doesn't that echoe Saturn(Lord of the natal 7th) in the natal 4th? :(

I've tried to explain to her(an Aries Sun) that because of who she is with her map, her first marriage or co-habitation would just be that way; mostly because of who she is! :)

Back to the horary, and thank you Tanit for the Chart! :D

As I stated, and any horary artist should be able to see that with Saturn Rx as lord of the 7th/counselors, I'm obstructed severely here.

But with the less than 9 minute separation from Mar's sextile to Saturn(horary's 7th lord) I'm seeing they will divorce, he will try to back out or change his mind, and my hypothesis is even as discordant as the relationship is they will after getting with others come back to each other! :???:

But like I said I'm hampered on this one and biased to want them to make it, but Not passing judgment, yet trying to make sound astrological judgments.

And I hope no one takes me for a Biblical Heretic, as most know both the Old Testament and New Testament have been skewed some, but our Creator's Heavens, our astrology is purely divine *if* we have the wisdom to decipher it; yes more pure than either cannonized documents.

See Tanit, my querant and her love are in a quagmire as she built like Anna Nicole Smith and he looks like a tall version of Brad Pit, they transgressed the law of Venus and gave into Mars on their first date as she lead him into the women's restroom to unrestrain their lusts; now they deal with the penalty of discord! :(

But we have to learn if we don't know the rules or choose not to abide by them, and the Grim Reaper is not gentle as he swings the sickle as we reap what we have sown.

Clinton Garrett Soule
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tanit
Moderator


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1115
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yet by her words, he is the responsible one, always being strict about the realitys of raising this child. Doesn't that echoe Saturn (Lord of the natal 7th) in the natal 4th? Sad


Anyone who would have to live with a 7th house ruler as Saturn in the 4th type might be unhappy about it, don't you think? I don't know what else is going on in her chart, but Saturn as the 7th ruler on its own can make someone feel as though marriage/love is a burden, and 4th house Saturn in your living environment tends to suck the fun out of your home life. No one wants a nagging father as their husband, at least most people. Maybe she needs to get out of the house more and find other things that make her happy - or common interests between them that bring back the love they once had.

IMO, it's best to stick with the question - "will I get a divorce?"

She's the swifter planet, so she applied to square Saturn previously (and there isn't a future aspect going on with him), so she's the one more keen on ending things between them and is unhappy in the union/predicament (at least currently) obviously. He's rejecting the square because she's in the sign of Saturn's detriment. So perhaps it's ultimately up to her, he doesn't want the divorce. She may just stay in the relationship for a while, since they are both cadent and suffer together here in the square.

What does Moon-Saturn square, and 12th house Moon at that, tell you about how the querent feels in this relationship though? It's not life-affirming, it's depressing, and whether or not you believe marriage is sacred is not the issue, since the querent is probably coming to you for advice as an astrologer.

I am not one for divorce either, but I don't really think people should be forced to stay together when they are unhappy. As the astrologer you should want what's best for the querent, right?

Perhaps you are a bit biased in this reading and might do well to tell the querent you are unable to read for her? If I have an ethical issue with a question, I tell the querent that I cannot help them with this matter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1539

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely following your post, some of the syntax structure and how you use language goes over my head.

You spent the majority of the opening part of the post discussing your own moral or religious outlooks on the question being asked. It appears that there is some anxiety about such questions. I don't understand how elemental bias would help matters nor explain why someone would understand that you are traditional in your views of religion, unless you assume that, by proxy, others who share an elemental balance as you do would share such religious beliefs? In any event, if the question was such that you would find yourself in anxiety by considering it, your answer to the querent should be that you have religious or ethical reasons for not answering such questions as they fly in the face of your own personal belief systems. Because someone asks a question does not mean that you are forced to answer it after all. In fact if your personal beliefs are such that they may prejudice or bias the answer you might give, then it's probably even more a good thing that you just refrain from answering divorce horaries. On a quick tangent, I've never understood the idea of no biblical grounds for divorce, the gospel of matthew quite clearly outlines that divorce is permissable in cases where infedelity is a factor. Perhaps this will ease your conscience on this?


I have not read the other comments just yet as I like to challenge myself to read horaries independantly before reading the words of those who are better at it than I am. This is a very late degree of ascendant which is a warning often used against judgement. Lord 1 in the 12th house suggests that she is powerless at the moment. Perhaps the late degree rising is suggesting a similar sentiment. However she is domicile and so has good essential dignity. She's a good person in a bad situation.

Saturn, the husband, is also accidentally debilitated, by being retrograde. However is also in a sign of good essential dignity. Another good person in a bad situation. However consider what Saturn is just about to do, it is about to leave its exaltation and move into virgo. Their significators are also separating. He is about to be peregrine. Also he does not well receive the querent who is coming from a sign that he is debilitated. The moon is separating from aspect and so is saturn. They're both separating from one another. The horary suggests that they both leave one another, however moon domicile suggests that she stays at home and him being a peregrine 'homeless wanderer' suggests that he will leave the home.

In my understanding legal matters are a 9th house concern and so a divorce might be seen by lord 9. Lord 9 is Jupiter well dignified in pisces. The moon applies to lord 9 by trine, an easy aspect between two well dignified planets. It would seem that the querent will divorce him. In fact it is the querent's (and therefore the moon's) next aspect. The last aspect was to the Sun who may be representative of the lover with whom she cheated on her husband with. The Sun and saturn both oppose, the sun being the primal masculine planet often associated with masculine sexuality in horaries.

However, once the Moon makes her aspect to Jupiter the next aspect will immediately be to the south node, a most unfavorable aspect. Perhaps that the Moon is dignified and separating from a dignified greater benefic will lessen the implication and importance of this. In any event at the time of the horary the south node is occupying the same house as the querent.

With Mars angular and weighing on the querents mind in the first house, our attention is brought to mars ruled 10th and 5th house. Perhaps children are implicated as weighing on the querent's mind? Are children involved?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aAglala said:

Quote:
I can understand that such questions disturb you, Clinton Soule, and I am familiar with your general attitude . But, sometimes, we just have to obey to the "rules" of our society- it's the people and their actions that we sometimes disapprove with, not the astrological analysis of such actions. I believe that it is important to always keep in mind that you're not helping someone to make damage but that you're just HELPING SOMEONE by giving them the answers that they can use constructively. Divorces, marriages...? We can't change their lives.


As you know this is all my personal Biblical Bias, just like Alan Leo and Jeane Dixon were somewhat Biblically Prejudiced in thier particular view in astrological interpretation.

Clinton Garrett Soule

The question is *if* I were an astrologer and a Christian in Columbia and one asked about a Cocaine deal of about 100, 000 dollars/American even if legal in that nation is it ethical under Christ who was ushered in by the astrologers who came to worship him shortly after his birth?

If I were a Jewish horary artist residing in Israel, and a Islamic individual asks me a horary question about a the best time to attack Israel should I answer the question?

If I were living in Germany and one of the greatest German horary artists of the time in the early 1940s should I be loyal to Adolf, the leader of my nation or defect to Churchill as a few actually did?

This is all besides the point, as I have explained that because the querant is either Jewish in Belief or Christian, she is to my understanding Not under the same rules of conduct as those whom claim to be Christian.

Aglala, I have read many of your posts, know well you have the zeal of Sco and the thouroughness of Saturn; few can doubt your astro abilitys here.

But just as Martin Luther wrongly persecuted horary artist Kepler because of his heliocentic beliefs, I do not want to go against the orthodox dogma that establishes marriage as sacred and does not establish divorce as a worthy option for a Christian or one raised in Jewish tradition as challenged by my King whom shed his blood to pay for mankind's sins.

Back to the horary in question.

As saturn is lord of the 7th, her marital partner and her astrologer or/and other astrologers, I think even if I need other astrological insights, many here will be constricted by this horary.

The less than 9 minute separation from Mars sextile Saturn, lord of the 7th, seems to say Yes a divorce is coming, but the Rx Saturn, lord of the 7th, her marriage shouts he(her husband) may back out or they may get back together after going back to brior romantic liasions.

I must conclude that Daniel, the Hebrew astrologer who taught Nebuchadnezzar's astrologers, according to the Hal Linsey Report, like many of the devout Jewish advocates and Christians like Paul and his admirers such as Thomas Beckett have stood thier ground on Christian precepts as they understood.

In other words if some Scandinavian nations legalize narcotics does it mean it's right under the divine Creator?

Or just because Brothels are legal in Nevada and questionable in California is it right for a Christian to attend the 'vaginal worship services'?

And even if the corrupt Pharisees of our time in the USA, corrupt Attorneys, say Divorce is legal and ethical, what does the King who as worshipped by astrologers according to astrologer Sidney Omarr, have to say about the divorce issue for Christians and those of related geneology after Moses?

Back to the horay, Aglala I think the Saturn Rx, lord of the 7th, in this horary will have all consultants somewhat stifled in this particular question.

And 'No', I am not prejudiced against her choices as she is neither Jewish nor Christian in belief and according to scripture 'Not' under the same rules as those that are. But she and her husband are definitely in a hard place and as many of you know, Christian and Jewish folk in thier devoutness with her Saturn placement in her natal 4th would suffer a simular influence corresponding to the aspects and the philosophical choices of the querant.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this is a very generous explanation, CS!
Thank you for taking time to elaborate on your approach and to write this reply. This is evolving into a philosophical "discussion" and this probably isn't the best place to continue it (I believe that discussions about ethics are always welcome in the section of forum reserved for them) but I will try to give you just a brief answer here.

You, of course, do know that i had no intention in starting a discussion about your attitude, personal beliefs or astrological approach, i was simply referring to what you have mentioned in the intro.

Looking at your examples, I can't help but to try to convince you that i would easily (very easily!!!) refuse to take part in an organised crime as the official astrologer of the criminal group. Smile (But, i do have a client who has spent years in prison and is currently risking going through the same thing again.)
But, athough some parts of my previous answer might seem liberal, my brain is still turned on Smile and I can detect danger and "wrong questions" even without consulting lawyers or priests.
I don't know what i'd do if I were an astrologer in Columbia, to tell you the truth, but I am an astrologer here where I am and I have already mentioned some of the things that I meet with on regular basis.
Is it normal that 53% of all the couples separate? Obviously not! But, if I ever decide to refuse to do chart delineations for people who belong to this percentage, I will simply stop delineating charts!

Killing someone, putting millions of people in danger, Hitler, robbing a bank...those are all very drastic examples. Anyone can tell that such activities are wrong. Luckily, we don't have many clients who seek astrological help when robbing a bank.
After all, who is to tell what really is or is not a correct thing to do!? Maybe we all look like a bunch of loonatics from the perspective of a native south American who believes in more than one God or from the perspective of a Tibetan woman luckily married to 3 husbands!

But, besides Christianity and Judaism, there are plenty more religions out there. Some of them have a very strong influence on the law system and, in some parts of the world, that actually means that if a husband kills his cheating wife, the God(s) say "amen". Would you agree with that? I wouldn't. and i don't!
That said, people are still sentenced to death in USA. As a person, I disapprove with that but can an American astrologer refuse to delineate a chart of an American lawyer or a judge who takes that law for granted and has maybe sent someone to death already?!

But, even more importantly- our clients do not have to be religious at all. If the client is not, say, a Christian, then we cannot expect her or him to obey to the rules of Christianity, can we?! So, what should we do then? Likewise, if she claims to be a Christian and still wants a divorce- we are no priests either, we can't preach! We can give a friendly advice, we can try to keep our common sense and talk to her about it but we also need to make a clear distinction between wives craving a new toy-boy and a woman who is seriously thinking about leaving an abusive husband or simply moving on for some other reasons.


Quote:
In other words if some Scandinavian nations legalize narcotics does it mean it's right under the divine Creator?


Is it ok to kill someone just because you're a judge? It's not. This goes beyond just religion and astrology! It's one of the biggest questions!

My opinion about the law system in Scandinavian countries is very, very high but that doesn't really matter (I believe that we are talking about Netherlands!). the answer to this question can only be given by a religious person. or, in even better words, by a theistic person. I'm not one and I can't give you the answer.
But I don't think i'm a bad person either! I don't think most of my divorced clients are bad! Smile (they're mainly confused and sad!)
I can't tell you what the divine creator would have to say about this but I can tell you something else (and, please, do know that i'm by no means trying to add a negative tone to this reply by mentioning this) - I'm pretty sure that no child or women should be victimised or raped. I have met many victimise women and they were all desperately looking for a way out of the their marriages. I am not a Christian (though, my parents are), I don't see the things the way you do obviously but, I also don't think that Christianity (in its essence) supports violence or child abuse.
My system is actually very, very simple- a person is free to do with her life whatever she or he wants; I can help with an advice and I will (and usually do) try to suggest a better solution whenever I think that I can or should do it but I would never question the clients decisions from the perspective of her or his religion. Or mine for that matter! That belongs to the most intimate part of their lives and I have no right or authority to suggest that they are being "sinful". At the same time- i can't expect them to respect my beliefs. But, as long as no one is in danger - no, I don't have trouble delineating the charts for people regardless of whether i would do what they're up to. I would refuse to answer a questions about the lover's married life- that i would do. I would refuse to offer help if someone were to ask me "When is the best time to rob a bank?", I can think of many situations when I would or have said "no, that you have no right to know". But, Islamic law says that a Muslim can only marry another Muslim OR a person who is not a Muslim but is religious (baptised). No, I would not say "no" to a girl who wants to know if her relationship with a Muslim boy were possible considering the fact that she is not religious herself. And, according to some people, I would probably commit a sin just by providing astrological help.
But, I would gladly refuse to answer a Question that might put someone else's life in danger no matter what their religious rules have got to say about it and I've actually had one such situation!

Many religions think that Astrology is sinful too. as a matter of fact, I know of at least 20 Catholic priests who share that opinion!

We can act friendly and remind our clients that their children might suffer or that their extramarital affair might put their calm marriage into danger but I would never dare suggesting that they were working against the God's will.
And I do believe that Paul's suggestion sounds fair enough- an astrologer who does not feel comfortable with such questions, should probably try to say it openly to the client:"Sorry, but I do not support that and I don't think that i'm the best person to help you at the moment!".

Quote:
Aglala, I have read many of your posts, know well you have the zeal of Sco and the thouroughness of Saturn; few can doubt your astro abilitys here.


I'm, off to meditate on this now! Very Happy Quite interesting! "The zeal of Scorpio" is something that I will have to investigate thoroughly but I do find it intriguing! Smile
And, I am Virgo rising with Saturn (conjunct N. node) inside the 1st, yes! Great observations!

Oh, and btw, it's AglaYa - it's a character from F. Dostoyevskiy's novel "The Idiot". Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:
In consulting her I have advised her she must tell him as she natally has a Capricorn 7th, and as stated her natal 7th lord is in the natal 4th/virgo. I've tried to explain to this child of the Creator that with this Saturn 7th she and he must live by the rules of ethics.


In my opinion this could be very wrong. Ethics do not fall under Saturn, they fall under Jupiter.

If you are talking about what society validates as "ethics", then your perceiving notion of what it means may be based in laws, traditions, customs and norm, and indeed, these are saturnine in nature (and changeable, I might add). But that would still be a dangerous loose use of the word "ethics", and I do not advise it.
_________________
Paulo Felipe Noronha


Last edited by PFN on Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton
I have removed your last post and would ask you to think very carefully about the potential for causing offence when offering your opinions on Biblical scripture. The first and foremost policy in this forum is this:

Quote:
Members should post in a way that is respectful of other members. Members undertake to make their comments freely available to a diverse range of visitors to the site, and so should avoid posting comments that could cause offence or be generally construed as objectionable in content or tone.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/templates/subSilver/read.php


Your post underlined (and emboldened) a view which many of our members will find intolerant, upsetting and offensive. If this happens again your IP will be blocked from accessing the forum without further notice.

I personally feel the late ascendant is warning you to leave this matter alone. A horary consultation should be built upon the querent’s decision to ask, according to their own free will; but also your decision to judge should be based upon your free will too. If you hate divorce horaries then simply don’t do them. Better for everyone, since that aversion to the matter you are looking into will prevent you from judging the chart with an open mind that can balance the signification appropriately.

In any case, members come here to discuss astrological technique and don’t need a discussion on what the bible might or might not say about adultery, fornification, and the appropriateness of death penalties.

Deb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul said:

Quote:
In my understanding legal matters are a 9th house concern and so a divorce might be seen by lord 9. Lord 9 is Jupiter well dignified in pisces. The moon applies to lord 9 by trine, an easy aspect between two well dignified planets. It would seem that the querent will divorce him. In fact it is the querent's (and therefore the moon's) next aspect. The last aspect was to the Sun who may be representative of the lover with whom she cheated on her husband with. The Sun and saturn both oppose, the sun being the primal masculine planet often associated with masculine sexuality in horaries.


Paul, I understand many Moderns have used this house for Law, but from what I understand this relationship matter whether Marriage or the Separation or Divorce is the 7th, if I understand Lilly correctly. I do like the simplicity of the Moon trine Jupiter(lord of the 9th), and I understand many have used various techniques arriving at the same results but is it a Traditionalist approach or a Modern method?

And thank you Deborah Holding for the boundary, I knew I was getting too worked up, running off with this like Forest Gump on the gridiron, getting on my soapbox, and if anyone wants to know about the Bible there are various Biblical websites they can post on. :D

It's hard on the other animals in all our own natal charts when a beast in one's 9th is seen as abusing the other critters! :,

The less than 9 minute separation says to me she will divorce.

The Saturn Rx, lord of the 7th, says he may try to back out!

And my hypothesis is they both will go back to prior loves only to return to each other as I think they will eventually see the faults are within themselves and regadless of who they were with, history will repeat itself, but a child will bear the sorrow of two who have refused to take both parental and matrimonial contracts seriously!

NOT into passing judgment but trying to bypass my bias and consult God's Heavens by making a sound astro horary judgment,

Clinton Garrett Soule
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1539

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton

"Paul, I understand many Moderns have used this house for Law, but from what I understand this relationship matter whether Marriage or the Separation or Divorce is the 7th, if I understand Lilly correctly. I do like the simplicity of the Moon trine Jupiter(lord of the 9th), and I understand many have used various techniques arriving at the same results but is it a Traditionalist approach or a Modern method? "

Well in terms of the relationship be it love or divorce, I understand the use of the 7th House. I was just looking for anything that might be supporting testimony and with the 9th House being the ruler of law, and the querent's sig approaching and easy aspect to that significator, it seemed to tie in to the question regarding divorce.

I have not yet read Lilly so I do not know if this is 'modern' or traditional. My horary knowledge mostly comes from modern writers like Frawley, Appleby and Barclay. But even without using Lord 9, it seems a separation at the very least is being implicated in the horary.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The final outcome of this horary on divorce:

Our benevolent Host stated:

Quote:
I personally feel the late ascendant is warning you to leave this matter alone. A horary consultation should be built upon the querent’s decision to ask, according to their own free will; but also your decision to judge should be based upon your free will too. If you hate divorce horaries then simply don’t do them. Better for everyone, since that aversion to the matter you are looking into will prevent you from judging the chart with an open mind that can balance the signification appropriately.


It was my misunderstanding that all horarys can be answered, but leave it to Deb to tell it as she knows so well, as Lilly Did Not include horarys with late degrees for an obvious reason. In this case the querant was most likely testing the artist as Bonatus emphasized with late degree risings.

The 9 minute separation from Mars to Saturn(lord of the Matter) may have a bearing here as according to one of our members, Olivia, a few Ancients allowed one degree orb to the lord of the matter by separation. However, to my understanding Lilly only allows 7 minutes separation to the ruler of the quesited.

Also, as the 7th, the quesited is Rx the following by Lilly and emphasized by our beloved Tom states:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6465&sid=7166c6ae063091e97a64e18725964873

Yes, the Querant, also a natal Cancer Asc., is in the finalization phase of finally getting a divorce and Deb's insights of Lilly's standard has struck home for this astrologer; beware of late degree risings!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, it's been almost two and a half years since we discussed this. Thank you for the update.

Indeed, this chart was full of warnings and it was a fiery discussion Shocked although, to this day I haven't deciphered why you would say that i have a "zest of Scorpio" I have to admit!


Cheers,

aglaya Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aglaya said:

Quote:
Indeed, this chart was full of warnings and it was a fiery discussion although, to this day I haven't deciphered why you would say that i have a "zest of Scorpio" I have to admit!


Well we all know we can't or shouldn't pass judgments upon others, yet make worthy astro analysis, despite our fixed positions and our attitudes or oppinions. Like people with certain Virgo traits may have very sensitive beliefs about Capital Punishment as the culture at the Rosicrucian Fellowship in California that teaches astrology has that attitude and are 'Vegan Vegetarians'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB7Bx-rYBBs

We all put our beliefs on the line in horarys just as all judges in courts have their unique prejudices; so this horary was very hard for me.

And the fact that the Lord of the matter was only separated by 9 minutes from a sextile, and Lilly allowed only 7 while a few Ancients allowed one full degree still has me swimming in this query; as was that saying YES?

But Aglaya, as many of us realize, and the devout horary advocate and teacher, Dorothy J. Kovach of California, and owner of Angelicus Merlin Forum, pointed out as an Authority on horary particularly William F. Lilly, that 'the planets correspond to the natural chart and the houses'.

IE. Aries on the 1st ruled by Mars, Tau on 2nd ruled by Venus, Gem on 3rd ruled by Mercury, etc....

So if you have one of the lights(Sun or Moon) in the 8th, or one of them cjt Mars or Pluto(out on the Limb John Frawley uses Outers), or something of that order in the 1H it could be recognized as scorpio. Even if your writtings are very thorough I just can not see Capricorn as you seem not inhibited or perhaps you have overcome Chronus. Maybe it's your natal 3rd?

And Yes, can you hear the delay, hindrance, obstacles, all Saturn adjectives in regard to the way the matter has manifested about the quesited?

And the querant was so infantile(cancer) about this query that matches both her natal ascendant being Cancer and the horary's asc. The lord of the querant being in the 12th also shows the clandestine love affair she had and the sorrow she was in as well as her self-undoing in regards to her marriage and it's final ending. It always amazes me how much the 'stars speak' the truth as King David of ancient Israel wrote in a famous book of Hebrew culture.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated