16
Just a thought , but the concept of the collective conscious does not diminish the concept of the singular conscious, it is merely different ways of looking at something.

I think there are times when a world chart makes perfect sense, WWI and WWII for example were times where the planet as a whole was in crisis, and a world chart should have made sense. (haven't looked I'm theorizing here) and then there are times when I think it makes more sense to look at a local chart. which I think is probably most of the time.

anyway, its an idea.

Granny
ps, extension of that idea, might be to look at a world chart in terms of economy, since that has been a world wide issue recently...

17
margherita wrote:
Deb wrote:
If we are not too picky we could forget about the equator requirement and just go for the central point of longitude. I'd vote for Greenwich, London - that would be nice and easy for me :)
What about Roma? :)
Greenwich would certainly be easy for users of a paper ephemeris :) . What about Brussels for EU matters?

As a 'world' Aries ingress chart a reasonable choice would seem to me a place on the equator where the Sun was exactly in the zenith or nadir or on the Eastern/Western horizon.

By the way, in my fantasy Lake Victoria in Africa on the equator and one of the main sources of the river Nile has always attracted me as a 'navel' of the world.

18
What about Roma?
look, you Romans had your day - time to move on. I didn't want to sound precocious earlier, but I was actually thinking of just a little north of Greenwich (like here - at my house).

19
. . . I was actually thinking of just a little north of Greenwich (like here - at my house).
Do you really want hordes of obnoxious tourists in your garden jumping over an imaginary line and chanting 'I'm in the east, I'm in the west'?

20
I have learned to get used to such things.

If I did want to draw a 'world chart' though - why not just draw it for 0 longitude & 0 latitude? What does it matter that there is no city there? Al Biruni was talking about a place that could act as a 'centre of the world', presumably for symbolic purposes, since he talks about different nations describing this centre of longitue and latitude in different ways: "The Hindus however say that it is a high place named [Sri?] Lanka...".

Obviously they were not all enlightened enough to recognise the Greenwich 0? meridian (let alone my house) in the 11th century. This has made me realise that I don't understand the ancient history of longitude very well. He says:

239: Cupola of the Earth
A central point of longitude between East and West of the habitable world is called the cupola of the earth. Sometimes it is decribed as lacking latitude, because it is on the equator.

But how did they measure longitude then? Did all the different nations have different starting points? I haven't really thought about it until now.

21
But how did they measure longitude then? Did all the different nations have different starting points? I haven't really thought about it until now.
Probably, in his time, the center of the world was Baghdah. The chinese always called China the middle kingdom. In vedic astrology it is used the "dome of the world", that "falls in 64E24 of longitude and 0N00 in latitude" (nehran magazine, p. 32, January 2009).

(An interesting article by the way, anyone interested can google nehran magazine and download it in english).

According to google earth this is the middle of ocean.

Best regards
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22
The beauty of using the Aries Ingress chart is that we do not need or even desire a chart of the world. What would it show anyway? The world is a pretty diverse place. The concerns of those in Moscow, Russia are far different from those in Anchorage, Alaska, or Sidney, Australia.

The Sun in Aries is the Sun in Aries for the whole world. The Sun enters Aries at a particular instant or looked at another way at the same time for everyone everywhere. The effects of that ingress are varied by the angles, which are different everywhere. So the Sun in Aries is the Sun in Aries is the Sun in Aries, the Sun on the ASC is not the same as the Sun on the MC which is not the same as the Sun in the 8th. If we wish to see the effects of the Ingress on the UK, we cast the chart for London. If we wish to see the effects as they pertain to the USA, we cast the chart for Washington DC or perhaps New York City, and so on. We can compare those charts if we wish to look at Anglo-American relations during that year.

This seems to be a much more rational system than casting a single chart for the whole globe and trying to tease out information from a single chart that applies to both America and Kyrgyzstan.

Tom

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Tom wrote:The beauty of using the Aries Ingress chart is that we do not need or even desire a chart of the world. What would it show anyway? The world is a pretty diverse place. The concerns of those in Moscow, Russia are far different from those in Anchorage, Alaska, or Sidney, Australia.

The Sun in Aries is the Sun in Aries for the whole world. The Sun enters Aries at a particular instant or looked at another way at the same time for everyone everywhere. The effects of that ingress are varied by the angles, which are different everywhere. So the Sun in Aries is the Sun in Aries is the Sun in Aries, the Sun on the ASC is not the same as the Sun on the MC which is not the same as the Sun in the 8th. If we wish to see the effects of the Ingress on the UK, we cast the chart for London. If we wish to see the effects as they pertain to the USA, we cast the chart for Washington DC or perhaps New York City, and so on. We can compare those charts if we wish to look at Anglo-American relations during that year.

This seems to be a much more rational system than casting a single chart for the whole globe and trying to tease out information from a single chart that applies to both America and Kyrgyzstan.

Tom
i completely agree- that is the beauty of the Aries Ingress. I have been using it locally for state and county predictions as well. When you live in a country that is very large even the Ingress for the capital doesn't necessarily give indications for individual municipalities.
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24
I decided to look at the Ingress, because I hadn't actually looked at it this year, did you notice that Aside from the Sun being in its sign of Exaltation, the Moon and Mars and Saturn are all in their signs of exaltation as well, and Jupiter is in his own sign! of the 7 traditional planets, only Venus and Mercury are not in great shape. Venus in detriment and Mercury isn't in either terms or face, etc.
I just found that an interesting tidbit.

Granny

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side from the Sun being in its sign of Exaltation, the Moon and Mars and Saturn are all in their signs of exaltation as well, and Jupiter is in his own sign!
The sun will always be in exaltation on the ingress chart. And mars in Leo is not in exaltation.
completely agree- that is the beauty of the Aries Ingress.
Also agree. Ingresses and eclipses gain value by their local determinations and comparation with previous charts.
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26
Intelligent mundane astrology has to be done with more than one chart. We can get away with general potential in a nativity because we are talking about one person. If we cast an Aries Ingress chart for Washington DC it isn't going to tell us much by itself. The current Ingress cast for Washington puts the Sun on the MC indicating a great deal of attention will be placed here, but that by itself isn't too much different than any other year.

The Sun is opposite Saturn in Libra, also exalted, but retrograde and at the bottom of the chart. Saturn rules the 7th, enemies of the nation, and they are at home, 4th house. One might be tempted to look at this as enemies of the head of state as Saturn opposes the MC, which also holds the Sun.

The Moon, the people, is on Algol, occupying the 11th and ruling the ASC. Neptune fans will notice the tight square from the Moon. The ASC is conjunct Castor.

OK once all of this and more is worked out, we would then look to see just how much if any of the potential will be realized and to what extent. For that we need more charts. Subsequent ingress charts, lunations, eclipses, etc are the more typical ways.

One question the astrologer has to answer is how to arrange the hierarchy of the charts. To Abu Mashar, the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in effect would be the main chart, but we know as he did that in his day that chart could not be accurately constructed. His contemporaries would have used the following Aries ingress chart. We now know that the tables used to construct Aries Ingress charts weren't all that good right through the 17th century and beyond. Our authorities never constructed an accurate ingress chart in their lives.

We can, and we can construct a lot more than that giving us a real advantage in that we can compare our results to real world events that can also be timed accurately.

We could also take Morin's approach and give the Aries ingress the top spot in the chain and see how subsequent charts work with the Aries ingress. For example the 2010 Cancer Ingress cast for DC has almost the identical angles of the 2010 Aries Ingress cast for the same place indicating much of the promise of the Aries Ingress will be realized this summer. Then there are the lunations that can help us narrow things down even more.

The point is that mundane astrology takes quite a bit of work. It is chart heavy and requires understanding of the world in addition to understanding of astrology. I think more importantly for us is that the field is wide open. We have the principles handed down to us from our predecessors, but we also know they did not have the tables and tools necessary to put their principles into practice accurately. We get to do that. We can take the various methods and subject them to study and try to either validate some of the older methods or come up with our own.

Tom

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Tom wrote:The beauty of using the Aries Ingress chart is that we do not need or even desire a chart of the world. What would it show anyway? The world is a pretty diverse place. The concerns of those in Moscow, Russia are far different from those in Anchorage, Alaska, or Sidney, Australia.

This seems to be a much more rational system than casting a single chart for the whole globe and trying to tease out information from a single chart that applies to both America and Kyrgyzstan.

Dear Tom here we don't agree. I'd like to have very much a chart of the world, for Aries Ingress or the preceding syzygy or whatever.

We read in our newspaper that in Kyrgyzstan the opposition leader sent to home the whole Parliament and explosions in Moscow underground, but nothing in Italy or in USA or UK.

How could the astrologer see in advance WHERE the event will manifest? I cannot cast charts for the capital cities of the world in advance.

There should be something connected with astrological chorography, the one mentioned by Greek astrologers for example and repeated by the Renaissance ones.

For example both Russia and Kyrgyzstan (it should be Scitia or Serica if I'm not wrong, it's not easy for me which I'm in Rome) should be under the Air trigon- surely Aquarius for Russia, I'm unsure for the other nation, Aquarius like Russia or Libra.

Is this a coincidence? But where we see these signs? In which chart? I know many of you are not happy with this method but it was very used in the past.

margherita
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