Retrograde motion in Progressions

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Hi, everyone.

We have had multiple conversations on retrograde planets in Natal charts here, some of them are still fresh and I hope I'm not suffocating the forum with yet another similar topic but I opened a separate thread because I have a somewhat specific Question when it comes to retrogradation of Natal planets. It's a question that has been "bugging" me for quite long and, honestly, I don't know how come I never asked it here- I'm sure that you will have some interesting insights.

So, the question, at least for those who use Progressions, is- how do you threat a planet that was not retrograde in the Natal chart when it turns retrograde in progressions?

My Natal chart ruler is Mercury; it was not retrograde, it wasn't even stationary but it was extremely slow and it entered its first stationary phase 3 days after I was born. I have obviously been under the influence of its backwards movement and slow motion ever since. The fact that it is about to stop moving retrograde and enter its second stationary phase this April, made me start thinking about this "phenomenon" and similar placements again.
Is a planet weaker when retrograde or when in its first station in the Natal chart ?
Which planet is in better shape- a retrograde planet or a planet that was not retrograde at the time of birth but did enter its first station soon after it? They will both spend a lot of time in retrograde motion!
Would you examine differently a slow and a fast moving planet in the same position?
What do you think about the moment when such planets turn direct again or when they enter their second stationary phase in progressions? Do you make a note of such changes?

I0've got many questions as you can see and some of the obviously require a more thorough approach if not a statistical analysis :) but I would be very interested in hearing your opinions regardless of whether you have examples to support them or decide to rely upon your common sense and general astrological knowledge.

Sincerely (and currently stationary),

aglaya :lol:

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Since progressed planets, by definition move so slow, I'm not sure that planetary speed, by itself, is all that important. The natal delineation should take that into consideration.

Many astrologers look at progressions as slow moving transits. The problem with using transits as the be-all end-all of prediction is that they imply that our lives are going along one way or another and then BANG! A transit brings an event, with little or no reference to the nativity. Not all astrologers look at things that way, but enough of them do whether they admit it or not. For example listen to the moans and groans over the Saturn return, which is really just a transit.

"Oh my God what will happen to me when Saturn returns to my 7th house?"

If you're taking care of 7th house matters, probably nothing much will happen. To believe otherwise is to believe that nothing that happened previously in the life is going to matter once Saturn gets close to his natal place.

Look at this in the reverse. If we need a job and we see a glorious Jupiter heading to the MC, we wouldn't spend all of our time at the pub buying drinks until we drop and then expect to be offered a fine job because Jupiter to the MC means good fortune. It also means excessive behavior. So the progressions show the rather slower unfolding of the potential of the planet, and if that planet, over time, slows down, stops and goes the other way, it is highly significant. Apply that to the the rest of the chart.

Progressions demonstrate how things unfold. When a natal planet changes direction it should tell us something that is happening or something we have been working on will reverse for better or for worse. Ruler of the ASC might indicate a change in life direction, but we need supporting testimony.

I'd figure out when the planet switches direction and cast a solar return for that year (or two if it happens near the birthday) and look for the significance of that planet in the return. It might be very revealing.

Tom

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The problem with using transits as the be-all end-all of prediction is that they imply that our lives are going along one way or another and then BANG! A transit brings an event, with little or no reference to the nativity.
Doesn't this apply to any kind of prediction method? I agree that expectations of transits are often pitched too high but one could also have such high expectations from directions, returns etc.

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Doesn't this apply to any kind of prediction method? I agree that expectations of transits are often pitched too high but one could also have such high expectations from directions, returns etc.
I agree but that wasn't my point, and I was a bit too flip, so I'll re-state more clearly. My problem isn't with transits per se. My problem is that transits are currently taught by many astrologers as virtually the only prediction method necessary.

I don't know of any traditional method sold as the only one to use. I mentioned using progressions and solar returns after delineating the chart - that's three. That isn't the way transits are currently taught. Modern astrologers teach students to be on the lookout for Saturn returns, Pluto squares etc. These are only transits and can be useful when used with other techniques. By themselves, they aren't as effective. But then using only the solar return or only progressions, solar arcs, directions etc isn't any better.

Tom

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There is some ambivalence with transits; on the one side I believe them capable to relate to mood changes, on the other side they often are unreliable to guarantee a result. Your Jupiter/MC/pub example being a clear one. In delineating transits I would 'fill' in the empty spaces with concepts like behaviour/social/economical/political circumstances.

I strongly agree with you that the natal chart comes first and (maybe differently from you) I think it serves as a 'mould' in which we humans have space according to the circumstances just mentioned. Hence the difficulty to delineate charts of twins. However the transits are also a mould but moving yet originating from the natal chart. At birth it is astronomically determined that a certain transit (or any kind of prediction method) will occur then and then, but I personally consider it impossible to make predictions at that moment with astrology alone, at most some rough indications. I find inspiration in Ptolemy IV.10:
certain causes more general and predominating are pre-supposed in existence before particular causes
My observations of primary directions and secondaries have often been disappointing or too vague and many times made me think I shouldn't use them. However on a few important occasions in life there are 'accumulations' of primary, secondary and transit. Perhaps my disuse of houses, signs, exaltations appears a bit barren to most astrologers and could explain the disappointment in prediction, but other times I enjoy to see the simpleness of an effective transit

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I like Morin's method and it isn't just his nor did he claim to invent it. The idea is to go from the general to the particular. We start with the nativity. Then we use one (or more) of the following: primary directions, secondary progressions, solar arc directions. If we see something there such as an exact aspect to conjunction to an angle, cast a solar return for the year it occurs. If it occurs near the birthday, cast two solar returns. Then use lunar returns to narrow down the timing further then use transits as triggers.

All this sounds like a precision machine, but things don't always work this neatly. However the principles are sound in that we look at the nativity for the potential and the unfolding of the nativity for initial timing. If we find a native where all of these things line up neatly, we can be reasonably certain that a significant year is upon the native.

What I like best is that this system gives the astrologer a framework that he can work with instead of the hit and miss method of transits to natal planets. Others may prefer to work with profections and the firdaria. I haven't done this, but I understand there are some great successes using this method. Both systems treat the life as unfolding instead of random events occurring as bolts from the blue.

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Hi aglaya,

I can't say whether a natal Rx planet is in better or worse shape than a SR planet. As you point out, the distinction in speed is so minor. I do wonder if there was a significant event in your life when you were 3 years old?

As far as specific examples, I agree with Tom that it's all there in the nativity. A natal mercury combust in the 12th house went retrograde by progression in the native's 52 year. The native's brother and sister died within one week of each other. Natally, mercury is L3, L12. The timing of the incident was actually one year after progressed mercury retrograded, when SA mercury was combust progressed sun.

Another example: Native's ascendent ruler Venus retrogrades by progression 6 months ago. Native recently broke up with boyfriend of 7 years, a traumatic event since it forced her to realize how the relationship had been depleting her vitality and essence for a long time. Natal venus is conjunct regulus in the 11th house, square jupiter in 2nd. Lots of "status" issues. Native is tired of the L.A. club scene, wants to spend time at home.

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Hi, everyone, I won't quote, I'll simply answer to all of your posts! :)

Tom, thanks for your replies, very interesting observations and lots of material to think about as always. :'
(has anyone ever told your that you have a great writing talent? I'm serious, your posts are always so well "shaped" and your sentences are very classy! :D You should at least write articles! I'd be your regular reader! )

Now, as for the "big explosions" called The Returns- I agree 100%. I've actually explained how I approach planetary returns just recently in another topic and, long story short, I tend to examine the passages of the planets through the Zodiac as larger trends and don't pay much attention to the fact that a planet is back where it started from unless, of course, if it activates an important natal promise or/and when the planet is at the same degree (or within the orb of conjunction) in the Solar return chart because then we do have a strong activation of the Natal promise. then I simply follow Lilly's explanations though, i must say that I have found them to work only when supported by directions, other aspects found in the same chart or progressions. Sometimes, they simply spice up the story a bit. Just recently I've had two SR charts in my hands with SR Venus conjunct natal Mars but nothing huge happened - because there was no other promise.

I also agree that everything needs to be supported by in at least one more chart or by another aspect and, by all means, that the Natal chart always comes first.

But, as for the transits- I have never really liked the idea of predicting the events or even just general tendencies by using simply transits. i actually don't use them at all. Besides, I have seen too many mistakes in readings caused by the astrologer's blind faith in transits. Only on very few occasions have I found them to be helpful in determining the exact time of certain events but even then, the events were dramatically announced by other predictive methods. (example: Progressions, direction and SR chart all suggesting that a marriage is most likely to be ended during that solar year only the dates gotten from different calculations vary. Then I simply find the date when the transitional sun will make a stressful aspect or any other divorce-like aspect that fits into the expected time frame and that could trigger the event and make a note of that date. When the situation is like a temping bomb then it only takes a little for it to explode.).

But, wouldn't you say that, though technically just transits, progressions are still somewhat different- the placement of a progressed planet is not just the current placement of the planet (unlike in transits) and, to me at least, progressions have always made a lot of sense and have been a natural "match" to Natal chart because, if the moment of our birth can determine the course of our life than the next steps that the planet will do after we are born should be able to provide at least some help in trying to unfold the story hidden in our Natal chart. That is not to say that progressions alone are sufficient and that they should be used as the only predictive method but I do admit that my experience with them is quite satisfying.

JulieYvonne- no, nothing significant happened when I was three. But after reading yours as well as Eddy's and Tom's posts, I must say that something very interesting comes to my mind- something that i, unfortunately, usually have no time to check with the people who have such natal placements during the delineation and something that they usually don't have time to explain after the delineation is done. :) And that is- retrograde progressed planets will sometimes make multiple aspects. This could be very interesting for fast planets such as Mercury (the case from my chart) as, with them, it is expected that the planet will actually return to its natal placement during the person's life time. It would be very interesting to examine the same aspect in both retrograde and direct motion of the planet. I can't give you any example from my chart because my mercury is yet to enter its second stationary phase and it won't make another aspect (except some minor ones) for maybe 10 more years but I'd say that these repeated aspects as well as the return of the planet on its natal position would be very interesting to examine .

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My opinion is that in secondary progressed charts you can, or rather, should, take into account the retrogradation of a planet. Also, the debility of the planet can be measured according to it's speed/station. 1st station is the worse, followed by retrogradation, then 2nd station, and direct (good shape). But as others have said, this is a single testimony, and alone, can not say much.

I actually have an example:
Image
This is my mother's natal chart. As you can see, Mercury is retrograde in her chart. In an attempt to investigate why and how myself and my two sisters that followed were conceived, since in this chart there are some serious debilities to the planets, I took a look at the secondary progressed chart for the day I was born. There, I concluded, the only noticeable feature was that Mercury had gone 2nd station and direct by secondary progressive motion. I regressed the chart a little bit and went to the likely month of conception (I was born 25/09/1983). Here is this progressed chart:
Image
As you can see, the Moon is travelling through Virgo here, her radical 5th. Also, she opposes Saturn, which natally opposes the 5th. The Moon testifies to sons, since the part of sons on her radical chart is in 21? Cancer, so she has relation to the matter. Also, it is important to keep in mind for the following informations I'm going to present that:

In the natal chart, the Moon is almuten of the AC (it's a night chart) and is ruled by Saturn (by being in Capricorn). The planets that look most apt to carry the 5th matters are Saturn (by placement), Moon (by placement and universal signification), Venus (by placement) and Mercury (by authority). Mercury is angular, albeit in aversion, Saturn is in a good house, although retrograde and peregrine, Venus is in fall (but not peregrine, as she has face) and the Moon is in the worst condition (detriment and cadency). The other planet not averse to the 5th is Jupiter, but he is in aversion to the AC and also exiled (although rendering the light of Mercury to Venus).

Anyway, would that be enough to predict a son on the way? I'm not sure it would. Then, I took a look at the firdaria:
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As you can see, things are getting a bit clearer now. During a Saturn period, Mercury sub-ruler, a son was a possibility. Is there a direction to further show the possible outcome?
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The one I consider important here is marked on 30/08/1983. So, the relation between Mercury and Saturn strengthens. I shall add that a sister of mine was born 30/09/1986, near that Venus/Mercury direction. The other sister was born 08/12/1984, if of interest to anyone. Let's keep going, and look at the Solar return for the year that interests, the one she got pregnant for the 1st time:
Image
Here, again, we see that Mercury is on the fore. Ruling the AC, and moreover, in close aspect to Jupiter and Mars in the 5th (radical 7th). Interesting enough, my father had his natal Mars on 3?56 Scorpio and I have Saturn on 3?06 Scorpio :shock:. Since we are focused on Mercury, let's look at it's Return for the year I was born:
Image
Again, a relation between Mercury and Saturn is apparent. I also cast the chart for the 1982 Mercury Return, and it was interesting, but here, information is clearer. Mercury conjunct MC, again in close aspect to Saturn.

So, all this came from me noticing a single thing, Mercury's retrogradation on a secondary progression. Did I know there was already an event? Yeah, so this is not so amazing. Do I think it would be possible to predict my birth if it was yet to come? I'm not sure. But at least, I could try to do that with a little more 'narrowness'. Since Mercury is so up to the front in these charts, and ruling 5th and 2nd, I could say either 'child, pleasures or money'. As a matter of fact, I would be correct in all of them. During this period, my mother was cast from her mother's house, cause they did not accept her relationship with my father (a much, much older man). They went so far as calling the police several times to harass them before and after I was born (saying my father was corrupting a minor) and with no work or money, they had to go under a real hell in relation to 2nd house matters as well (in fact, one of the worse of my mother's entire life). But they survived.

Hope this is usefull for the discussion.
Last edited by PFN on Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
Paulo Felipe Noronha

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PFN wrote:This is my mother's natal chart....
As you can see, the Moon is travelling through Virgo here, her radical 5th. Also, she opposes Saturn, which natally opposes the 5th. Hope this is usefull for the discussion.
It sure is, thank you for this example, I will surely give it another better look!

But, since you're mentioning the 5th house matters and the Moon's aspects in your Mom's progressed charts- I have found the Moon's aspects to the natal placement of the Lord of the 5th and especially to Venus in progressed charts of women to sometimes have very strong effects; I know of two cases where young women have lost their virginity when their progressed Moon trined their natal Venus. In one of the cases, it actually happened the same day when the aspect became partile. The truth is- they had more indications of the 5th house activities as well as of some turning points in their romantic life (for both of them it was also the beginning of romantic life in general and those were their first boyfriends ever) but this aspect must have had a very strong influence as well. And the Natal Moon wasn't even very strong in either of the charts.

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Modern astrologers teach students to be on the lookout for Saturn returns, Pluto squares etc. These are only transits and can be useful when used with other techniques. By themselves, they aren't as effective
I agree that the planetary cycles aren't very useful standing alone for prediction, but I AM surprised at the number of people who experience upheaval at the uranus opposition (age 42), inspiration at the neptune trine (early 50's), and death at the uranus conjunct (83). Just sayin' :) .

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Tom wrote:Then we use one (or more) of the following: primary directions, secondary progressions, solar arc directions.
It surprized me a bit to read that you use solar arc directions. I don't intend to judge this or to go deep on the subject in this thread, but they seem pretty modern to me. I thought your main focus was on Morin.

To return to Aglaya's original question, I can't tell whether retrogradations of progressed planets are important. Personally I have not been very convinced of progressed planets but I'll keep an eye on them following years. If I look at secondary progressions, I mainly look at those of the Sun and sometimes the Moon (usually when the progressed Moon coincides with an aspect to the Sun and eclipses). There's something funny in my chart though. Progressed Mercury will go retrograde just before the sextile to natal Sun only to sextile the Sun some 30 years later. I don't know what this means, missed opportunities? ,perhaps I don't want to know and maybe that's why I tend not to use the progressed planets.

In case of using them I believe that I only would take the retrograde movement in consideration if the progressed planet will aspect a natal planet or angle. I'd think that the effect of the retrograde motion alone in the progression would be too faint to be noticed or only as a slight undertone in life. If at the same time of stationary the planet would aspect another one, then I would consider it worth some closer examination, not if at that moment the planet would remain unaspected.

However note that here I'm mainly theorizing and speaking out some of my own thoughts. Never feel restrained to investigate.