Sun on the 12 house cusp

1
Hi all,
Im still a beginner and will be grateful if you respond to me with an answer to this question.

In this particular natal chart the 12 house cusp is in 16 degree of Pisces, and the Sun is in 15 degrees of Pisces in 11 house.

Should I consider the Sun to be in the 12 house, or should I interpret the Sun to be in the 11 house?

Thanks to all who will respond.

2
The Sun is definitely conjunct the 12th house cusp and should be considered as related to the 12th but with a few 11th house issues carrying over.
The Sun is a huge influence in a chart
Also, I my experience, birth times are always a little before the time noted, so chances are the Sun is more in the 11th than you think but i like to think of it this way.
The 'Planet' in Direct motion is looking ahead, and as it gets to the end of the sign/house it 'sees' the house ahead and starts planning before it gets there, so always has influences of both.

Always try to rectify your time.

3
Thanks a lot masyn. What you are saying does make sense. The time of birth in this case though is as precise as it can possibly be (I was there when this person was born). I guess it would have been better if no planets were placed in the 12 house.

4
Hello Masyn,

You said, "...birth times are always a little before the time noted, so chances are the Sun is more in the 11th than you think..."

As the Angles and Cusps move FASTER than the planets, an earlier birthtime makes that particular Sun LESS in the 11th, not MORE, since the 12th House cusp is moving much more quickly than the Sun.

Below is a chart for earlier today...
Image
Below is a chart for 10 mins earlier...
Image
See that the Sun earlier was LESS in the 11th...

This is an important concept...it is vital that it is fully understood.

Take care,

Peace

Atlantean

6
Should I consider the Sun to be in the 12 house, or should I interpret the Sun to be in the 11 house?
Atlantean's comments are very helpful. However lets just assume the Sun really does fall just before a house cusp. How do you interpret that?

Like so many questions in astrology its an issue of how you choose to work with a chart. In particular what house system do you favour? The house placements of planets will obviously vary depending on this.

For example, using a whole sign or equal the Sun is clearly in the 11th house. However, if you use a quadrant system such as Placidus it could in either the 11th or 12th house depending how you work. Most traditional astrologers working with quadrant houses ( eg Placidus, Regiomontanus, Alcabitius etc) use the so called 5 degree rule. This means a planet falling in the last 5 degrees of a house is judged to be in the next house. The idea being that it is already more under the orbit of the following house cusp. On that basis this Sun would be definitely in the 12th house. On the other hand if you do not use the 5 degree rule you might just be able to squeeze the Sun into the 11th. You need to clarify for yourself what approach you favour.
Last edited by Mark on Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

7
This mean a planet falling in the last 5 degrees of a house is judged to be in the next house.
The way I was taught is that the house starts five degrees before the cusp. The word "cusp" comes from a Latin word "cuspis" which is the tip of a sword or the point where the energy is concentrated. The point (no pun intended) is that the word "cusp" does not mean "beginning." The cusp is the most sensitive or important point in the house, just as the the front door is not the most important point in your home, you have to get inside a little bit to get there.

This makes sense, but then I read Morin on the subject. His belief was that the cusp is the dividing line between the houses. However he acknowledged that planets close to house cusps often had influence in the following house. He reasoned this was due to the planetary orb. If a planet has a 5 degree orb or more correctly a 5 degree moiety then if he was within five degrees he would influence the next house.

Either way it is usually acknowledged that a planet close to the cusp will influence the next house.

Tom

8
It was my own battling (with myself) over just such issues for the several decades I used Placidus, which primed me for Whole Sign; now I never have any of these confusions; and since the sensitive points in Whole Sign are all in exact relationship with the asc degree, I also never have to worry about where the most prominent/significant point ("cusp") of any House might be (all are exactly related to the asc degree); MC/IC? Additional points (in most cases) for added testimony (in addition-in many cases- to the sensitive points of the 4th and 10 Houses)

I LOVE Whole Sign (but that's just me-please disregard this posting if not to your liking, or your experience!)

9
Hello Dr farr,

I have found Whole Sign houses very revealing for natal work. I still compare them with a quadrant house system though. In fact I still prefer quadrant houses for horary or electional charts.

I was wondering how you delineate a 'cusp' as you describe it in a Whole sign house? In particular how do you view a cusp within say a cadent house? Presumably a planet being close to a cusp or sensitive point like this means that it resonates more with the energy of the house it falls in? Can this operate negatively? For example by strengthening a malefic or strengthening a benefic planets association with a difficult house?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

10
dr. farr wrote:It was my own battling (with myself) over just such issues for the several decades I used Placidus, which primed me for Whole Sign; now I never have any of these confusions; and since the sensitive points in Whole Sign are all in exact relationship with the asc degree, I also never have to worry about where the most prominent/significant point ("cusp") of any House might be (all are exactly related to the asc degree); MC/IC? Additional points (in most cases) for added testimony (in addition-in many cases- to the sensitive points of the 4th and 10 Houses)

I LOVE Whole Sign (but that's just me-please disregard this posting if not to your liking, or your experience!)
When you relate the cusps of the houses to the degree of the ascendant is then the ascendant the beginning or cusp of the first house? If so you are working with equal houses rather than with whole sign houses?

11
In my above posting I am not relating the word "cusp" to the border or dividing line between houses-I am referencing that word as Tom has defined its Latin meaning in his posting.

Suppose the asc degree (horoskopic point) is 15 Aries:
-the beginning of the 1st house is 0 degrees Aries (thus in our example the asc degree point would NOT be the beginning of the 1st house, but in this case would be in the middle of the house: essentially, EACH HOUSE IS THE ENTIRE SIGN/each sign is an entire house; each and every house starts where the entire sign starts-0.00 degree of the sign- and each and every house ends where the entire sign ends-29:59th degree of the sign)
-the beginning of the 2nd house is 0 degrees Taurus
-the beginning of the 3rd house is 0 degrees Gemini
...and so on for the rest of the houses.

Regarding the determination of the "sensitive degree" of each house (not degree on the border or the dividing line between houses but rather the sensitive point as sometimes understood by the term "cusp", as that term is defined in Tom's posting, above) using our example of the asc degree point being 15 Aries:
-we proceed exactly 1 whole sign (30 degrees) forward in the zodiac (from the asc degree point) and state that the "sensitive degree" (or "point"-or "cusp") of the second house is 15 degrees Taurus;
-we proceeed exactly 2 whole signs (60 degrees) forward from the asc degree and say that the "sensitive degree" (or "point"-or "cusp") of the third house is 15 degrees Gemini;
...and so we proceed forward to each house, ending by projecting the asc degree point 11 whole signs forward from the asc degree point, saying in this example that the "sensitive degree" of the 12th house is 15 degrees Pisces.
In summary, each house involves an entire, complete (whole) sign, with no such thing as interception possible; and the "sensitive degree" (point of "power", "cusp" as Tom has defined that term) for each house (subsequent to the 1st house) is a "projection"-like a spoke or spearhead-directly radiating from the precise horoskopic degree.

Any planet (or star or Lot, etc.) posited near the "sensitive degree" of any house will have a particularly significant involvement with that house, but this holds valid wherever in that house the "sensitive degree" (derived precisely from the asc degree point) might happen to be found-whether in the very beginning of the sign (house) or the middle of the sign (house) or even at the very last degree of the sign (house)

In Whole Sign (also referred to as the "Sign/House" system) it often occurs that the mc/ic degrees are different than the "sensitive degrees" of the 10th and 4th houses (remember that the horoskopic degree directly dictates all of the sensitive degree points of each and every subsequent house by exact geometric relationship) So it often happens that the mc/ic points will be different than the asc (horoskopic) degree point. But this is no problem in actual, practical delineation: whatever the angular relationship of the mc/ic to the asc degree is, this will be taken into account in delineation AS WELL AS the (always) exactly 90 degree relationship of the sensitive point of the 10th house (and 4th house) to the asc degree point.

Now the above is merely my simplistic effort to outline the fundamentals of Whole Sign in answer to MarkC and Johannes Susato questions. Robert Hand's book "Whole Sign Houses: the most ancient house system", in which I first read about the system over a decade ago-although more of a booklet than a full treatise on the subject-will provide a much more satisfactory explanation of this subject than my little attempt here.
Hopefully, though, my explanation will be at least partially satisfying.

12
From page 25 of Whole Sign Houses The Oldest House System, An Ancient Method in Modern Application by Robert Hand, Arhat Publications

"Previously I felt that reading between the lines, one might get the impression that the what I am about to describe may have been the practice. And, the passages from Maternus cited previously have very much reinforced my view that the "cusps" of Whole-Sign houses were as follows: In each sign, the degree that the Ascendant occupies in the 1st sign is the degree of the cusp. This means that the Whole-Sign "cusps" are the same as the Equal House system cusps. The difference is that in the Whole-Sign system the "cusps" are not the beginnings of the houses. But wait! Aren't cusps supposed to be beginnings by definition? No. In fact, the word 'cusp' means 'point'. Remember that 'bicuspid' teeth are teeth with two points, not two beginnings. The cusp is the point where the symbolism of the house is expressed most intensely. Even in classic Equal Houses, and in medieval sources all other systems as well, the cusp is supposed to be five or approximately five degrees into the house, not at the beginning. The Hindus place the cusp in the middle of the house. In Whole Signs, the cusp is free to float about the house and be anywhere at all, even while the place or topos coincides with the full extent of the sign."