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Sun on the 12 house cusp
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Miracle



Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 18
Location: South Coast, UK

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:54 am    Post subject: Sun on the 12 house cusp Reply with quote

Hi all,
Im still a beginner and will be grateful if you respond to me with an answer to this question.

In this particular natal chart the 12 house cusp is in 16 degree of Pisces, and the Sun is in 15 degrees of Pisces in 11 house.

Should I consider the Sun to be in the 12 house, or should I interpret the Sun to be in the 11 house?

Thanks to all who will respond.
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masyn



Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Sun is definitely conjunct the 12th house cusp and should be considered as related to the 12th but with a few 11th house issues carrying over.
The Sun is a huge influence in a chart
Also, I my experience, birth times are always a little before the time noted, so chances are the Sun is more in the 11th than you think but i like to think of it this way.
The 'Planet' in Direct motion is looking ahead, and as it gets to the end of the sign/house it 'sees' the house ahead and starts planning before it gets there, so always has influences of both.

Always try to rectify your time.
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Miracle



Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 18
Location: South Coast, UK

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot masyn. What you are saying does make sense. The time of birth in this case though is as precise as it can possibly be (I was there when this person was born). I guess it would have been better if no planets were placed in the 12 house.
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Masyn,

You said, "...birth times are always a little before the time noted, so chances are the Sun is more in the 11th than you think..."

As the Angles and Cusps move FASTER than the planets, an earlier birthtime makes that particular Sun LESS in the 11th, not MORE, since the 12th House cusp is moving much more quickly than the Sun.

Below is a chart for earlier today...



Below is a chart for 10 mins earlier...



See that the Sun earlier was LESS in the 11th...

This is an important concept...it is vital that it is fully understood.

Take care,

Peace

Atlantean
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masyn



Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 22

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Atlantean, thanks Cool that was a typo, it was meant to be 12th.

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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Should I consider the Sun to be in the 12 house, or should I interpret the Sun to be in the 11 house?


Atlantean's comments are very helpful. However lets just assume the Sun really does fall just before a house cusp. How do you interpret that?

Like so many questions in astrology its an issue of how you choose to work with a chart. In particular what house system do you favour? The house placements of planets will obviously vary depending on this.

For example, using a whole sign or equal the Sun is clearly in the 11th house. However, if you use a quadrant system such as Placidus it could in either the 11th or 12th house depending how you work. Most traditional astrologers working with quadrant houses ( eg Placidus, Regiomontanus, Alcabitius etc) use the so called 5 degree rule. This means a planet falling in the last 5 degrees of a house is judged to be in the next house. The idea being that it is already more under the orbit of the following house cusp. On that basis this Sun would be definitely in the 12th house. On the other hand if you do not use the 5 degree rule you might just be able to squeeze the Sun into the 11th. You need to clarify for yourself what approach you favour.
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Last edited by Mark on Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This mean a planet falling in the last 5 degrees of a house is judged to be in the next house.


The way I was taught is that the house starts five degrees before the cusp. The word "cusp" comes from a Latin word "cuspis" which is the tip of a sword or the point where the energy is concentrated. The point (no pun intended) is that the word "cusp" does not mean "beginning." The cusp is the most sensitive or important point in the house, just as the the front door is not the most important point in your home, you have to get inside a little bit to get there.

This makes sense, but then I read Morin on the subject. His belief was that the cusp is the dividing line between the houses. However he acknowledged that planets close to house cusps often had influence in the following house. He reasoned this was due to the planetary orb. If a planet has a 5 degree orb or more correctly a 5 degree moiety then if he was within five degrees he would influence the next house.

Either way it is usually acknowledged that a planet close to the cusp will influence the next house.

Tom
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was my own battling (with myself) over just such issues for the several decades I used Placidus, which primed me for Whole Sign; now I never have any of these confusions; and since the sensitive points in Whole Sign are all in exact relationship with the asc degree, I also never have to worry about where the most prominent/significant point ("cusp") of any House might be (all are exactly related to the asc degree); MC/IC? Additional points (in most cases) for added testimony (in addition-in many cases- to the sensitive points of the 4th and 10 Houses)

I LOVE Whole Sign (but that's just me-please disregard this posting if not to your liking, or your experience!)
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Dr farr,

I have found Whole Sign houses very revealing for natal work. I still compare them with a quadrant house system though. In fact I still prefer quadrant houses for horary or electional charts.

I was wondering how you delineate a 'cusp' as you describe it in a Whole sign house? In particular how do you view a cusp within say a cadent house? Presumably a planet being close to a cusp or sensitive point like this means that it resonates more with the energy of the house it falls in? Can this operate negatively? For example by strengthening a malefic or strengthening a benefic planets association with a difficult house?

Mark
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr. farr wrote:
It was my own battling (with myself) over just such issues for the several decades I used Placidus, which primed me for Whole Sign; now I never have any of these confusions; and since the sensitive points in Whole Sign are all in exact relationship with the asc degree, I also never have to worry about where the most prominent/significant point ("cusp") of any House might be (all are exactly related to the asc degree); MC/IC? Additional points (in most cases) for added testimony (in addition-in many cases- to the sensitive points of the 4th and 10 Houses)

I LOVE Whole Sign (but that's just me-please disregard this posting if not to your liking, or your experience!)
When you relate the cusps of the houses to the degree of the ascendant is then the ascendant the beginning or cusp of the first house? If so you are working with equal houses rather than with whole sign houses?
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my above posting I am not relating the word "cusp" to the border or dividing line between houses-I am referencing that word as Tom has defined its Latin meaning in his posting.

Suppose the asc degree (horoskopic point) is 15 Aries:
-the beginning of the 1st house is 0 degrees Aries (thus in our example the asc degree point would NOT be the beginning of the 1st house, but in this case would be in the middle of the house: essentially, EACH HOUSE IS THE ENTIRE SIGN/each sign is an entire house; each and every house starts where the entire sign starts-0.00 degree of the sign- and each and every house ends where the entire sign ends-29:59th degree of the sign)
-the beginning of the 2nd house is 0 degrees Taurus
-the beginning of the 3rd house is 0 degrees Gemini
...and so on for the rest of the houses.

Regarding the determination of the "sensitive degree" of each house (not degree on the border or the dividing line between houses but rather the sensitive point as sometimes understood by the term "cusp", as that term is defined in Tom's posting, above) using our example of the asc degree point being 15 Aries:
-we proceed exactly 1 whole sign (30 degrees) forward in the zodiac (from the asc degree point) and state that the "sensitive degree" (or "point"-or "cusp") of the second house is 15 degrees Taurus;
-we proceeed exactly 2 whole signs (60 degrees) forward from the asc degree and say that the "sensitive degree" (or "point"-or "cusp") of the third house is 15 degrees Gemini;
...and so we proceed forward to each house, ending by projecting the asc degree point 11 whole signs forward from the asc degree point, saying in this example that the "sensitive degree" of the 12th house is 15 degrees Pisces.
In summary, each house involves an entire, complete (whole) sign, with no such thing as interception possible; and the "sensitive degree" (point of "power", "cusp" as Tom has defined that term) for each house (subsequent to the 1st house) is a "projection"-like a spoke or spearhead-directly radiating from the precise horoskopic degree.

Any planet (or star or Lot, etc.) posited near the "sensitive degree" of any house will have a particularly significant involvement with that house, but this holds valid wherever in that house the "sensitive degree" (derived precisely from the asc degree point) might happen to be found-whether in the very beginning of the sign (house) or the middle of the sign (house) or even at the very last degree of the sign (house)

In Whole Sign (also referred to as the "Sign/House" system) it often occurs that the mc/ic degrees are different than the "sensitive degrees" of the 10th and 4th houses (remember that the horoskopic degree directly dictates all of the sensitive degree points of each and every subsequent house by exact geometric relationship) So it often happens that the mc/ic points will be different than the asc (horoskopic) degree point. But this is no problem in actual, practical delineation: whatever the angular relationship of the mc/ic to the asc degree is, this will be taken into account in delineation AS WELL AS the (always) exactly 90 degree relationship of the sensitive point of the 10th house (and 4th house) to the asc degree point.

Now the above is merely my simplistic effort to outline the fundamentals of Whole Sign in answer to MarkC and Johannes Susato questions. Robert Hand's book "Whole Sign Houses: the most ancient house system", in which I first read about the system over a decade ago-although more of a booklet than a full treatise on the subject-will provide a much more satisfactory explanation of this subject than my little attempt here.
Hopefully, though, my explanation will be at least partially satisfying.
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James E.



Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Canada

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From page 25 of Whole Sign Houses The Oldest House System, An Ancient Method in Modern Application by Robert Hand, Arhat Publications

"Previously I felt that reading between the lines, one might get the impression that the what I am about to describe may have been the practice. And, the passages from Maternus cited previously have very much reinforced my view that the "cusps" of Whole-Sign houses were as follows: In each sign, the degree that the Ascendant occupies in the 1st sign is the degree of the cusp. This means that the Whole-Sign "cusps" are the same as the Equal House system cusps. The difference is that in the Whole-Sign system the "cusps" are not the beginnings of the houses. But wait! Aren't cusps supposed to be beginnings by definition? No. In fact, the word 'cusp' means 'point'. Remember that 'bicuspid' teeth are teeth with two points, not two beginnings. The cusp is the point where the symbolism of the house is expressed most intensely. Even in classic Equal Houses, and in medieval sources all other systems as well, the cusp is supposed to be five or approximately five degrees into the house, not at the beginning. The Hindus place the cusp in the middle of the house. In Whole Signs, the cusp is free to float about the house and be anywhere at all, even while the place or topos coincides with the full extent of the sign."
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr. farr, this is a really far more than a "simplistic effort" or a "little attempt" as you call it - thank you very much!

Knowing the difference of whole sign and equal houses but not using these for myeslf in traditional approach it is nonetheless always very interesting to see different techniques and experience.

But following your praxis would it not be consequent then to allot a special meaning to each space between these 12 sensitive points (in the same degrees as the ascendant) too?
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dr farr,

Thanks for going into so much detail.

I did hear Ben Dykes speak on his research into the subject of Whole Sign houses a couple of years ago and it appears his research into Persian Medieval astrology led him to conclude the early Persian astrologers worked in a similar way.

Does anyone know if his new book on Persian Nativities discusses the issue of Whole Sign houses further? I dont have a copy of this yet.

Mark
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Dionysus C.



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 3

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply Reply with quote

Hello, For me the delineation of the Sun being in one house and very close to the next house cusp would make the Sun in a conjunction with the cusp as noted by another here in the forum.First it is always important to have a basic understanding of the Sun and while the description differs from person to person it still holds the same basic indications.
So for me the Sun represents the concentration of the life force and spirit,The Sun relates the the individuals focus for their life and the capacity to create and express the individual being within society to such an extent that one becomes the authority and star of their journey here in this life and so on.
The Sun within the Houses will always shine it's light on the activities or within the arenas of life to such an extent that they become highlighted and noted within one's life.The houses dictate to areas of individual's life in such a manner that we can see what planet affects what aspect of the life the individual is involved in. So the Sun as we know can brighten the house activities but,it can also overheat or cause the life force to radiate to strongly within that area of life as well when not expressed in a positive manner. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing.
So we know quite simply that the 1st house cusp represents the Individual while the second represents the Individual's Forms(structures and possessions).The 11th house represents the individuals area of life that deals with the link up with humanity within the context of our society as well as the connection to universal information and abstract goals and ideas. The Sun makes these things important within your life and in turn makes you the Authority over them within this lifetime.It just so happens that the Sun shares a part in not only the 11th house's realm of life but, also the 12th house which represents the unconscious,imaginary,spiritual, physically reclusive,detached,and energetically all encompassing sides of life.
The Sun brings both of these areas of life and melds them together through the Sun's jurisdiction and role. The Ego as represented by the Sun becomes transcendentally focused,spiritually rational,scientifically boundless in that it deals with things in life that relate to those descriptions taking you on a journey that is more unique to some degree or another.
Every Chart is unique and should be appreciated for it's complexity.The ruler of the Cusp of the 12th house will help to color it's realm and in turn has jurisdiction over the Character,Role,and Authority you represent.The Unified Goal and the Transcendence beyond Individuality on a Spiritual Plane will become joined together in Some way and you will be able to veer into the internet and link up of information and interactions in group junctions and you can peak into the hidden and spiritual realm and imaginary planes of inspiration as well in order to have a wider scope of focus than most people.
I hope some of this information has helped you out! I guess I decided to come to the Forum with a Bang! My Mars in Aries being the only fire sign in my chart helps me to just burst into the Scene.
To clarify my name is Dionysus and yea it's my real name. I am 19 years old and an astrologer/rebel psychic.I feel absolutely enthralled to be in and apart of a group or forum of people who have just as much passion about their astrological or what I call celestial musings as me. I hope to enjoy my time with you all as much as I hope you enjoy your time with me!
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