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Astrological houses and secondary motion
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Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 130
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Tom: I do deal with this in my book, but I know it's a confusing topic. Mostly it's a matter of semantics. So, briefly:

    When traditional authors speak of 'directing X', all they mean is that X is the significator in the traditional sense of signifying the matter under consideration (nothing to do with which point is moving).

    When they speak of 'directing X by direct motion', they mean that X is stationary or treated as stationary, and the other point (the promissor) is moved towards X by the primary motion from east to west. It is called direct because the promissor is ahead of the significator in zodiac.

    When they speak of 'directing X by converse motion', they mean that X is moved by the same primary motion from east to west towards the promissor, which is behind it in the zodiac.

In both cases, something is moved with the clockwise primary motion. If it is the promissor, we call it a direct direction; if it is the significator, we call it a converse direction. Nothing was ever really moved anti-clockwise before the end of the 19th century! (I am currently working on an article on the modern reinvention of the concept of 'converse directions', called Back to the Future.) Very Happy

When Morin directed the MC to Mars in Gustav Adolf's chart, it was Mars that was moving towards the meridian. Similarly, directing the ascendant through the terms/bounds really means watching the terms pass over the eastern horizon. (Morin also directed the angles 'conversely' in the sense of moving their natal zodiacal degrees, again with the primary motion. Others, like Placidus, said that the angles could not be directed conversely.)

I hope that clears things up a bit.


I have to say that Martin is the only person that has been able to properly explain these terms and ideas and relate them to my observations. Thanks again for your insight, I look forward to your article-
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estebon_Duarte wrote:


I have to say that Martin is the only person that has been able to properly explain these terms and ideas and relate them to my observations. Thanks again for your insight, I look forward to your article-


I think the same.

When one uses simple words to explain difficult things- like Martin in his book, this is the evidence he understands and knows what he is talking about.

In Italy we are very skeptical about people who use complicate and exotic words, we call it Latinorum.

From Manzoni's Promessi Sposi we have learned that:

1) who uses Latin and exotic and difficult language out of the context- he just is trying to cheating and confusing others about the matter;

2) that he is not neither an expert of Latin or the thing he is talking about and wants just to play the expert without being it.

Who wants to communicate something uses a language the others can understand. And this in fact the case of Martin and his book about directions, he knows the subject and uses the words others can understand-
I look forward the next article too.
margherita
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Netherlands

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Eddy, let's put this in perspective. When I took trigonometry in high school calculators had not been invented yet. I wouldn't know where to begin with a calculator and I've forgotten where to begin without one. Confused
There's a bright side on this: when calculators were introduced in highschool, the kids forgot how to calculate. My highschool years were in the '80s and the sums with trigonometry in them were almost only with 30°, 60° and 45° angles which give round (or easy to express in numbers) results, so still could be done without calculators. In the first year of school we sometimes made use of (co)sine and tan tables instead of calculators. However I can imagine it still is difficult and new to others, I would have the same difficulty to understand computers without getting angry.

Because of the great benefit it gave to me I always try to stimulate others to experiment with trigonometry. I've even thought of writing something down with many illustrations in them, but I don't have much time or the (computer)drawing skills. Deb made an introduction to primary directions once, http://www.skyscript.co.uk/directions.html . It's good, but maybe a supplement with more pictures for getting insight in the basics would make it appear less abstract.

Martin Gansten wrote:
I am currently working on an article on the modern reinvention of the concept of 'converse directions', called Back to the Future.) Very Happy
I like this title, so much contents in so few words.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin and Margherita, I'd like to ask when the use of AC and MC as promissors was first introduced in the history of Primary Directions. Has it always been there, is old or relatively new?
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This will either help you, Tom, or help you to despair


Both links will be helpful. I recall using the tables. I also recall that I liked this part of math and I may have been pretty good at it. The despair sets in when I noticed the book of tables of logarithms was first published in 1919. I'm not that old.

I agree that I am better off because I learned math without benefit of calculators. I saw the living definition of panic and confusion last week. I was on the road and I stopped for lunch. The computer system had broken down at the restaurant. Four young - very young, workers were gathered around the one who apparently knew how to use a calculator and was trying to figure out how to add up the bill and make change.

"There has to be a way to do this," offered one of the four. Well they figured it out. My bill came to $7.60 (I don't think they were bothering with the sales tax. Calculating a percentage and adding it to the total was too much to hope for. I gave the cashier $8.00. She turned to her calculator to figure out how much change to give me. I hope she never has to balance a checkbook.

Tom
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:
Martin and Margherita, I'd like to ask when the use of AC and MC as promissors was first introduced in the history of Primary Directions. Has it always been there, is old or relatively new?


Margherita has no idea unfortunately Sad

She just remembers Placidus writes explicitly that angles cannot be directed by converse motion, which he says it's the horimea- when the significator moves against the order of the signs.

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:
Martin and Margherita, I'd like to ask when the use of AC and MC as promissors was first introduced in the history of Primary Directions. Has it always been there, is old or relatively new?

Just to be clear on the terminology, the angles can never be promissors in the traditional sense, that is, the active element in a direction. But I think you use 'promissor' to mean 'the point carried along with the primary motion' (the way Rumen Kolev does) -- correct?

The earliest examples of someone directing the natal degrees of the angles that I can recall seeing derive from ar-Rijāl (Haly Abenragel) in the 11th century. He directs the cusps of the intermediate houses in the same way. There may well have been others before him, but the practice has definitely been around for the past millennium.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:

Just to be clear on the terminology, the angles can never be promissors in the traditional sense, that is, the active element in a direction. But I think you use 'promissor' to mean 'the point carried along with the primary motion' (the way Rumen Kolev does) -- correct?


I guess this should be because angles are generally considered like fixed, cardines (in English you have this word? there is no better way to explain this idea like the Italian cardine) of the sky.

When we are in the Eastern side - the direct direction according Ptolemy, we move planets towards the Ascendant or MC- planets move - promissors- and angles are unmovable. When we are in the Western side- the horimea- we move the significator (of life) to the Descendant - which again remains fixed.

Angles are like pillars of the chart in every sense.

margherita
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Martin, you grasped what I was trying to ask correctly.

Thanks Steven for this informations as well, I was wondering why not direct house cusps and parts since the MC and AC could be directed according to some source, and as you explained, it can be done, and there is a history to back it up.

And thanks Margherita for your insights as well.
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
I guess this should be because angles are generally considered like fixed, cardines (in English you have this word? there is no better way to explain this idea like the Italian cardine) of the sky.

(....)

Angles are like pillars of the chart in every sense.
They are for the direct experience of how we see the skies. Perhaps in a more 'earthy' or materialized/manifestated way (concrete events). However in most astrology I prefer to see the 0°Aries/Libra and the ecliptic as the pillars of the chart, because it serves as the basis for synastry, transits, progressions and for the movement of MC and Asc and as I see it hence also for the primary directions.

'Cardinal' is also used for the signs I believe.
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: More heretics? Reply with quote

Good evening,

Since Cyril Fagan's mundoscope has been cited, perhaps one may dare refer to other heretics who used clockwise houses, e.g. Jacques Dorsan, Luc Audy and Marie Delclos, all of whom work with so-called 'sidereal' zodiacs of equal signs. They partially based the use of clockwise houses on the work of another heretic, Michel Gauquelin, whose research showed that planetary effects are most powerful just before and, above all, after the angles in diurnal clockwise motion, i.e. in counter-clockwise cadent houses.

Here, one might consider applying Ptolemy's five degree rule but on the other side of the angles. Jacques Dorsan preferred Campanus houses but explicitly mentioned the issue of planets rising, culminating etc. in mundo whilst situated before these places in zodiaco, or vice versa.

Cyril Fagan discussed the octotopon eight house clockwise system using Hellenistic delineations. Dr. Patrice Guinard developed an eight house clockwise system with modern psychological delineations. Reinhard Ebertin dispensed with houses altogether and relied on the natural significations of the planets for topical delineations.

Two more astrological 'heretics', Dr. med. Editha Torsson, a German physician/astrologer, and Maria Thun, a German astrologer specialised in mundane agro-astrology, (deceased 2012) work(ed) with the unequal astronomic constellations instead of equal signs (tropical or 'sidereal'). Auréas astrology software (Paris) supports unequal constellations and houses based thereon.

My humble experience to date has been that, if one wishes to use houses at all, whole sign counter-clockwise houses work well but not when used clockwise. Of the 12-house quadrant systems, Campanus and Regiomontanus work well clockwise, Alcabitius and Porphyry less. When planets are near angles, one should of course check the in mundo positions. If one uses symbolism originally derived from the constellations, e.g. bi-corporeal, human, forward- or backward-looking etc., delineation of planets in constellations is the most accurate. Border positions of planets between two constellations are in themselves worthy of special delineation. Comparing the planets' heliocentric positions in constellations ('prototype') to the geocentric ones ('production') gives useful additional insight.

Of course the unequal astronomic constellations are, except for ingresses, ill suited for timing purposes. Moreover, many if not most people are very attached to symmetry, order and the like (Pythagorism and Platonism) and find unequal constellations, Black Moons, Centaurs and similar rather eccentric and irregular phenomena antipathetic.

Best regards,

lihin
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This post might better belong in the Philosophy and Science section. This Forum is for the discussion of what is commonly understood as traditional astrology.

The guidelines specifically prohibit the debates of "which is better: traditional or modern." That was a potential problem 6 years ago when the guidelines were written. Today it is less so, but the principles haven't changed. If a member does not care for traditional astrology, there are several high quality Forums on Skyscript where other topics can be discussed. This Forum is dedicated to discussing traditional astrology, not debating it's merits versus any other system, old or new or defending it. That is precisely what we've tried to avoid.

Tom
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Transfer OK Reply with quote

Dear Sir,

If as Moderator you wish to transfer my post to another section, i would have no objections. Previously in the thread there have been several posts mentioning astrological heretics and their ideas, so i presumed that my post would not be off topic. Even up to say the early 19th century (e.g. John Worsdale) there were already heated, occasionally polemic, differences of opinions amongst astrological authors who considered themselves 'traditional'.

Best regards,

lihin
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disagreements over technique, and/or who might be the "true" follower of Ptolemy is one thing. Dismissing the generally accepted tenets and origins of traditional astrology is another.

I cannot move posts. I don't have the ability to do that. I am suggesting that there is a better place for this topic. This Forum, as stated in the guidelines, is for the discussion of what is generally understood to be traditional astrology. Challenges to traditional astrology (as opposed to disagreements within) belong elsewhere. We went though something like this once before and as a result a sidereal Forum was established. There is already a Philosophy Forum where this kind of discussion seems more appropriate.
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:21 am    Post subject: What is 'traditional' astrology? Reply with quote

Good morning,

Fine, we can leave out the current and the 20th, and the portions of 19th century influenced by Mme H. P. Blavatsky et al.

But what exactly is 'traditional' astrology? Is e. g. Babylonian astrology, that differs from Hellenistic in several important respects, 'traditional'?

What about Renaissance innovations?

Etymologically, 'tradition' means transmission by saying, diction, mostly by word of mouth. Some would include transmission by writing but this might exclude a living chain from teacher to pupil.

Best regards,

lihin
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