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Solar Returns
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Solar Returns Reply with quote

[I copied and moved my post on this topic from the Nativities Forum, over to here, in the hopes that should anyone want to continue that discussion in the same way that it was being conducted there. We drifted from a question about a particular solar return to a discussion about traditional approaches to solar returns]

I did find something and I'm posting it in order to attempt to undo some of the confusion I probably caused. Plus I found something interesting that is somewhat relevant.

I found no description of how to find the Lord of the Year in the revolution, but I found a reference to it in one of the charts under discussion. Morin was explaining the revolution that occurred prior to the death of Cardinal Richelieu. In that delineation he noted that Mercury was the Lord of the year as well as the Lord of the ASC. This indicates that Lord ASC of the revolution isn't simply the default choice. In this chart, Mercury was in Virgo, so very strong, and ruled the ASC, MC and the Sun. I found no other planet in the relevant chart that might be considered quite so strong.

This method is similar to the method Lilly teaches to nominate the Lord of the Geniture. Similar but not identical. In this chart Mercury is in the 12th house. Lilly would have looked elsewhere. But the Lord of the geniture is a planet we can choose to work with. The ruler of a revolution is going to influence what will happen to the native during the year, in the case at hand, kill him.

Now irony of ironies. Early on in Book 23 Morin sings the praises of one of his sources for his opinions on revolutions. He cites the great work on the subject by Hermes the Philosopher. The joke is on Morin. The translator, in a footnote, informs us that the text on solar returns that Morin referred to was actually written by Abu Mashar. His opinion might have been altered had he known that. Morin did not accept the work on profections of course, but other doctrines like repetition of the nativity in the solar return indicating the thing promised would occur that year, are prominent in Morin's work. Morin also studied, but was critical of much of Cardan's work on Revolutions. Still he was probably influenced by it.

He would be less likely to direct through the bounds as he preferred directing in mundo to in zodiac.

Tom
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Returns Reply with quote

Hello Tom

Tom wrote:


Morin did not accept the work on profections of course, but other doctrines like repetition of the nativity in the solar return indicating the thing promised would occur that year, are prominent in Morin's work. Morin also studied, but was critical of much of Cardan's work on Revolutions. Still he was probably influenced by it.

He would be less likely to direct through the bounds as he preferred directing in mundo to in zodiac.

Tom


thanks for the kind reply to my question. I did not know exactly what Morin thought about profection, but on the other hand I was almost sure he did not trust in them. Everyone is child of the period he lives....

It's true that Albumasar text on revolutions is messy, I have the partial Italian translation (Bezza) and still I have difficulty to follow.

Anyway I would say a working routine could be (this is Argoli in commenting Ptolemy):

1- by age, not depending from the birth chart ( chronocrators, firdaria)

then depending on birth chart and more personal:

2- directions, and as all mentioned in the rest of the thread the Ascendant divisor

3- profection

4- solar return

5- transits.

margherita
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is how best to use much of the older material. Find a usable workable system and work with it. If an astrologer had only a handful of charts to work with all year long, it would make perfect sense to get as much out of each by using as many legitimate techniques as possible. It has to manageable and Margherita's system is quite manageable.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing of interest. Lilly advocates determining the arc, in the order of the signs, between the ASC and the part of fortune and using that arc in the solar return to place the POF. In other words, if the ASC is 15 Gemini and the POF is 25 Leo, that is an arc of 70 degrees. When the solar return is cast, place the POF 70 degrees from the SR ASC and read it accordingly. That way the POF will almost always be in the same house in every solar return.

Morin rejected this idea, but may have named the originator. Lilly doesn't say where he obtained the idea. Morin credits David Origanus (1558-1628) with inventing it.
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astrojin



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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

From Tom:
Quote:
Lilly advocates determining the arc, in the order of the signs, between the ASC and the part of fortune and using that arc in the solar return to place the POF. In other words, if the ASC is 15 Gemini and the POF is 25 Leo, that is an arc of 70 degrees. When the solar return is cast, place the POF 70 degrees from the SR ASC and read it accordingly.

John Frwley is certainly a proponent of this method. I think he does this to all points of the natal chart and not just the Lot of Fortune. He calls this "mundane conjunction". When the arc between a natal planet/point to natal Asc is the same as the arc between return planet and return ascendant, there is what is called mundane conjunction of the return planet to the natal planet/point. The natal planet/point would be in the same house as the return planet (if you use natal place for your return chart and the same house system).

This has a nice symmetry because when a return planet conjuncts a natal planet/point, we usually mean by ecliptic distances (e.g. natal Lot of Fortune in 20 deg Aries and return Jupiter is also around 20 deg Aries). The point of reference here is the Aries point (0 Aries), i.e. the arc between 0 Aries and natal Lot of Fortune is the same as the arc between 0 Aries and return planet/point.

So, we have two "conjunctions" to look into, the regular ecliptic conjunction and mundane conjunction. Come to think of it, the mundane conjunctions seem to be more personal as the reference points are the specific natal ascendant and return ascendant (2 points of references) whereas the ecliptic conjunctions use only one general point of reference (0 Aries). Furthermore, the ecliptic conjunctions are part of the regular transit i.e. transit that occurs at the time of the solar return itself.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
John Frawley is certainly a proponent of this method. I think he does this to all points of the natal chart and not just the Lot of Fortune.


He does this with the 7 lots based on fortuna. He discusses this somewhat in the final issue of The Astrologer's Apprentice (no. 22) where he says:

Quote:
Lilly's method of taking the natal Fortuna (= the soul) and projecting this from the Return ascendant (= the reality of this time and place) is asking "What is this soul going to experience in the reality of this year? Usually the answer will be "not much" ... But when something of true significance does arise, we will usually find that this natal arc Fortuna is emphasized within the Return chart.


The idea is that Fortuna represents the soul (among other things) and the soul is a constant and therefore a constant in the life that should be shown as a constant throughout the life. There are some constants in all of our lives.

I have no idea if this works any better or any worse than using Fortuna as usually calculated in a solar return. But it is also true that if we reverse (Frawley does not) then sometimes Fortuna in a solar return will be calculated as a day lot and other times as a night lot. Does this make a difference?

Tom
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astrojin



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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Quote:
He does this with the 7 lots based on fortuna. He discusses this somewhat in the final issue of The Astrologer's Apprentice (no. 22) where he says...

He also use other mundane conjunctions (planets and other lots), at least in one of his talks when discussing annual natal predictions (one of which is the ISAR lecture/tutorial).

Although I find many of his techniques very interesting and do work in certain level, I am still not prepared to ignore the sect of the chart in Lot of Fortune calculation.

I feel that the recalculated Lot of Fortune will only show "Fortunes" in the return year itself provided that the recalculated Lot of Fortune activates a personal planet in the natal chart. It represents fleeting "Fortunes" whereas the activation of the natal Lot of Fortune by a return planet accomplishes what is promised by the natal Lot of fortune in the natal chart provided that the return planet is the chronocrator.

Speaking of the chronocrator, there are three temporal ascendants to reckon with in the medieval analysis of solar return viz. the profected ascendant (whose domicile lord is the Lord of the Year), the ascendant of the solar return itself and the ascendant of the directed natal ascendant through the bounds (or terms) whose term lord is called jarbakhtar. Do these temporal ascendants have different meaning? The Arabian astrologers did not seem to make this clear. Another research seems to be on the way...
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astrojin



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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Annual predictions in the Book of Aristotle:
Ref: Persian Nativities Volume 1: Masha'Allah and Abu Ali, translated and edited by Dr Benjamin Dykes, The Cazimi Press, 2009, page xxx:

1. The sign of the annual profection of the Ascendant, including planets in it and aspecting it (both in the nativity and at the cycle of the year).
2. The profected Lord of the Year, known as salkhudhay.
3. The direction of the natal ascendant through the bounds, its aspects and dispositors.
4. The calculated ascendant for the cycle of the year (called the "east of the year"), ...
5. The domicile lord of the east of the year:...
6. The transits of the planets through the nativity at the moment of the cycle of the year.
7. The condition and place of the Moon at the cycle of the year.
8. The natal Lots and their Lords,...
9. The current bound lord of the directed hilaj, ...
10. The firdariyyat.


Annual Predictions in Ali Ibn Rijal's (aka Haly) book:
Source: Robert Hand ISAR 2005.

Table of the Sixth Part of Ali’s Text The sixth part of the entire book which is about the revolutions of the years of the native. It contains 15 chapters.

Chapter 1: On the support of each of the seven planets for the times of the years of the native.
Chapter 2: On the division and divisor.
Chapter 3: On judgments about the sign of the application.
Chapter 4: On judgments about the fridaria.
Chapter 5: On the significations of the application of the year to the places of the planets.
Chapter 6: On the significations of the planets when they are in one place in the radix and they fall
in another in the revolution.
Chapter 7: On the significations of the planets when in the revolution one planet falls in a place in
which there was another in the radix of the nativity.
Chapter 8: On the significations of the Sun through each of the twelve signs.
Chapter 9: On the significations of Venus, Mercury, and the Moon when each of them is in its
own place in the revolution in which each was located in the radix, or are in the places of
other planets.
Chapter 10: On the significations of the Lord of the Orb.
Chapter 11: On the Application of Planets to the Degree of the Division, or to the Degree of the
Application, or to the Degree of the Ascendant of the Revolution, or to the Moon of the
Revolution, or to Any of the Rays, or to Any of the Parts.
Chapter 12: On the significations of Ascendant of the revolution of the year.
Chapter 13: On aphorisms which are very necessary for this discussion.
Chapter 14: On knowing the business of fathers by means of the revolutions of sons.
Chapter 15: On the dividing of the months and years.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Speaking of the chronocrator, there are three temporal ascendants to reckon with in the medieval analysis of solar return viz. the profected ascendant (whose domicile lord is the Lord of the Year), the ascendant of the solar return itself and the ascendant of the directed natal ascendant through the bounds (or terms) whose term lord is called jarbakhtar.


If we add the natal ascendant (and we should) it makes four. This is a bit of a problem, I think, since simplicity is usually a desirable goal.

As for the natal arc POF as Frawley calls it, I have no idea how well or how poorly it might work. It would still only be valid for the year in question. If we use it for temporal guidance and it perpetually falls in the same house it would show how the "fortune" shown in the nativity, plays out that year. For example if fortune is found in the 5th in the nativity, this is the promise or potential of the lot and the area of life the native may expect it. The solar return shows how that promise plays out each year in the promised area of life.

The obvious objection is "We should do that for all the planets then." First of we do something like that with the planets when we place the natal planets in the solar return chart. Only in this case we place it, usually, in a house other than where it was in the nativity, but the distance from the Sun is the same as the nativity.

Second, if the POF only dealt with temporal or material things, then that would be a good argument. But it also has a spiritual component and this method handles that component differently. Frawley calls that spiritual component the soul and it, in his view, that requires a certain consistency as the temporal and spiritual are not to be treated the same way.

I've never worked with it this way and in fact I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the lots, but it may have merit. My main purpose in posting it was to introduce a little used technique and to present, perhaps, its originator.

Tom
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Astrojin, Tom and all

astrojin wrote:

Speaking of the chronocrator, there are three temporal ascendants to reckon with in the medieval analysis of solar return viz. the profected ascendant (whose domicile lord is the Lord of the Year), the ascendant of the solar return itself and the ascendant of the directed natal ascendant through the bounds (or terms) whose term lord is called jarbakhtar. Do these temporal ascendants have different meaning? The Arabian astrologers did not seem to make this clear. Another research seems to be on the way...


In Cieloeterra they tend to "fix" profections and then mark if natal, return or directed planets enter there.

In the section "Links" I gave links for two articles - in English or at least I hope Smile where Bezza and Fumagalli gave several examples, with charts and pictures.

And in the meantime I'm translating an article written for Linguaggio Astrale, where in the second part we will give our example- hope I will put on line in my blog very soon.

But obviously I recommend Cieloeterra ones. They use a variant of profections on the equator, if I can say so, - following Ibn Ezra in a way- but the method can be applied even with the general way of profecting.

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
In Cieloeterra they tend to "fix" profections and then mark if natal, return or directed planets enter there.

Is this 'fixed' profection chart that of the birthday for the current year, or what we may call the 'real-time' profection for the present time?

I was happy to see that Bezza article in English, by the way!
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
margherita wrote:
In Cieloeterra they tend to "fix" profections and then mark if natal, return or directed planets enter there.

Is this 'fixed' profection chart that of the birthday for the current year, or what we may call the 'real-time' profection for the present time?

I was happy to see that Bezza article in English, by the way!


The translator did what she could, so forgive her, especially because Bezza writes in a very peculiar Italian, very elaborate.

What I would say that in combining the different techniques - directions, revolutions, transits, each other they firstly mark the profection on the natal chart and then note on it profected, transit and return planets, examining which of them enter in profected places.

You can see examples of how they combine solar returns with profections in the translated articles.

Did this, they use monthly profection and revolution, and "real time" profection too.
Fumagalli - between the others, gives the example of Michael Jackson and "real time" profection. If I remember well he found some deadly profection encounter confirming the time rectification made by Ben Dykes several years ago.

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
The translator did what she could, so forgive her, especially because Bezza writes in a very peculiar Italian, very elaborate.

Yes, I noticed. Smile I read both articles (in your translation!), Bezza's several times, but I still wonder: when you say,

Quote:
What I would say that in combining the different techniques - directions, revolutions, transits, each other they firstly mark the profection on the natal chart

-- what date is that profection for? If I had my birthday in April and it is now October, and I want to look at current trends, would they enter the profected positions for April or for October?

Sorry if I am being slow!

On the correct method of calculating profections, we now have three suggestions: a sign for a year, a house for a year, and Bezza's two temporal hours for a year. Frankly, until there is software to calculate this latter variety, I for one haven't the patience to try it out...
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Sorry if I am being slow!

I'm sure nobody believes!


Quote:

-- what date is that profection for? If I had my birthday in April and it is now October, and I want to look at current trends, would they enter the profected positions for April or for October?


The articles explain different methods.

Bezza explains the general method, where we move according Ptolemy one sign for year (first table) and then his method (second table).
But in his method too "two hours profections" are given for the birthday, so in the case of the girl

http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.profezione/profezione.html

from the 18th to 19th birthday the profected ascendant moves from 6 Libra to 2 Scorpio. That portion of zodiac is the profected space of the Ascendant.
So the profection is calculated for birthday.

Then in the last lines of the article he mentions monthly profections and solar returns, which are 13 in a year according Ptolemy (Quad. IV,10).


In the second article Fumagalli mentions another method (I found it for eample in Giuntini who uses it in order to rectify his own chart).

Fumagalli
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.incontri/incontri.html

starts from Bezza example. In the solar return for 1975 the return Venus is in the Ascendant profected space, because return Venus is at 12 Libra; so Venus has a rulership of the year. This Bezza says, because she is the ruler of the Profected Ascendant and return Venus is in the Profected Ascendant space.

Fumagalli now considers the profected Venus from birthday to birthday: she moves from 29 Aries to to 22 Libra.
If now we consider that she does not jump from Aries to Libra, but she moves along this portion of zodiac, we will see that at the end of the year between two birthdays, she will arrive on natal Mars, which is indicative for the event.

What I mean is that the profection is always from birthday to birthday and then in order to pinpoint some peculiar events you can "direct" it or use monthly profections.
Quote:

On the correct method of calculating profections, we now have three suggestions: a sign for a year, a house for a year, and Bezza's two temporal hours for a year. Frankly, until there is software to calculate this latter variety, I for one haven't the patience to try it out...


All the things taught in Cieloeterra work, because they are not scholars, they always use in practical work.
Obviously they have their software and this can be done with a spreadsheet too (they did) but I'm like you, i do just what I can do with a software, I hate hand calculations.

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So the profection is calculated for birthday.

Thanks, Margherita; that's what I wanted to know. I would say Bezza is definitely a scholar, but his methods may still work! Wink When you say:

Quote:
In the second article Fumagalli mentions another method (I found it for eample in Giuntini who uses it in order to rectify his own chart).

-- do you mean to say only that Giuntini used what we may call 'gradual' profections (2°30' per month, or 5' per day), or do you mean that he actually used the method proposed by Bezza and Fumagalli on the basis of Ibn Ezra? (The latter would surprise me very much.) In either case, if you have the Giuntini reference handy, I should like very much to see it.
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