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Saturn retrograde and dignified
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Tanit
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:10 am    Post subject: Saturn retrograde and dignified Reply with quote

I was reading a quote by Picatrix about when Saturn is retro and dignified, as he is now in Libra:

Quote:
When [Saturn] is retrograde, however, he signifies misfortune, debilities or infirmities, prisons and evils suffered in all things, and if he enters into aspect with any other planet, he weakens it and damages all the qualities of the other planet. If he is retrograde and you ask him for something, what you seek will come about with delays and miseries and great labor. If he is retrograde in any of his dignities, his maledictions are augmented and increased; while if he rises in his powers and dignities, then he will be easier and gentler.


So Picatrix is saying that being retrograde and afflicted is better than being retrograde and dignified? This seems odd to me, since Bonatti says of malefics in exaltation:

Quote:
... the malefic is restrained from its malice just like a vicious horse is restrained from its viciousness by a strong bridle and whatever evil is in it is converted to good...


Other quotes are found here (no mention of retro influences): http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4832&sid=c1884ade4174a12b497700d003f6c559

So retrograde changes this up a bit, or is this just Picatrix's idea?
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This version is not unknown in astrology. In Vedic astrology-"Uttara Kalamrita by Kalidasa" -it is mentioned that a debilitated planet when retrograde performs like an exalted planet and an Exalted planet when retrograde behaves like a debilitated planet.

Andrew Bevan,elsewhere mentioned the idea of 'cancellation of debility' ,similar ideas are also there in the you tube video of Rob Hand's lecture on reception that was posted by Olivia.

PD
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Tanit
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched the "Reception" video several months ago, and I remember FDR's chart and retro Mars peregrine. I don't think Hand mentioned Mars acting better as retro and essentially weak, he said it was worse, also because it had sect and was angular (power but to do harm). The essentially strong Mercury trine was helpful due to mutual reception, he said. Mercury transferred strength to Mars via conscious effort on the part of the native.
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PallasAthene



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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Saturn retrograde and dignified Reply with quote

Tanit wrote:
while if he rises in his powers and dignities, then he will be easier and gentler.


Doesn't he mean rising, as in on the AC? hmm, probably not.

So, could it mean rising (increasing) in degree through the sign of dignity ie direct and dignified...

Which actually supports Bonattis view of an exulted malefic as "bridled".

Bonnati is not talking about an Rx malefic is he?


ergo... Rx and exulted.. it's really hard work to get it.. yet the malevolence is restrained.. so there may be something worth having.
Very staurn!

Rx and peregrine.. really hard work and nothing worth having anyway, (it may even harm you in the long run?)

Rx and detrimented.. really hard work and it'll kill you!
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elumen



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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how Saturn in Libra R performs in horary? My sense is that R can not cancel its exalted state (some may disagree) but I do not have much experience of what it manifests. I can only speak from the experience of my natal chart, I have Jupiter Rx in Sag conj MC and it is still a very very fortunate influence in my life in spite Rx motion. I could speculate that Rx makes it less powerful but it still expresses enough power. Of course Saturn is not the same as Jupiter, but I am quite intrigued about what affects Rx motion produces.
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dr. farr



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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own conception of the ramifications of rx planets (and this is definitely a minority opinion, albeit based upon indications from such authors as Ibn Ezra) is that rx planets represent "self-conflicted" influences (as if the planet were fighting with itself)
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Tanit
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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Farr - that's very interesting. Ibn Ezra is certainly a reliable source. So far, in the horaries I have seen, Saturn does seem to represent someone/something that is fighting themselves/itself.

I keep looking around for quotes from ancient sources, so hopefully I'll find some to add later.
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elumen



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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be true about my recent job horary. In there I had Saturn Rx in the 1H (Tanit, I think it was the same in your job horary.) and sure enough I'm fighting with myself to pursue the jobs in my old occupation. I do not want to, but seems like I have to.
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Tanit
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturn is going retro in Libra again in early 2011 until June. Towards the end of January it is retro. It will be slowing down soon.

Feel free to share your observations in the horary charts you have/will have. I have this in my Solar Return for 2011 in the 7th house. Yuck! Tongue Out

A few other quotes that are relevant:

Bonatti's Considerations on retrograde planets:
Quote:
The 25th Consideration is, Whether the Planet that is Significator be Retrograde, or Stationary to Retrogradation: for then it signifies mischief and damage, discord, contradiction, and going backward with damage; yet being stationary, is not so bad, as being Retrograde. For the last notes the mischief to be, as it were, present and in being. But being Stationary notes that ‘tis past and over.

The 43rd is, If the Fortunes and Infortunes be together il-posited, that is, in some of the said Impediments, as Houses where they have no Dignities, Combust or the like; then whatever they signify ‘tis but weakly; according to that Aphorism of the Philosopher, “A Planet Retrograde and Combust, has no strength in Signification. The Fortunes when Combust and under the Sun ‘s beams, signify none or very little good; and the Infortunes in like case have little or no virtue to signify ill.” [An unfortunate should be regarded as having very evil signification under the circumstances.]


Stationary planets:
Quote:
The 26th Consideration is, Whether the Significator be in his Second Station, that is towards Direction; for that signifies also hinderance and evil, which already hath been and is past; yet some say that this Second Station is as good as direction: but this is only a way of speaking, as when one hath been sick and begins to grow well, we say he is recovered and sound, which is not simply true, but somewhere near it; for as the First Station is not so bad as Retrogradation, so the Second Station is not so good as direction.


Slow planets:
Quote:
The 28th Consideration is Whether the Significator be slow of Course, for then it delays the effect; and if it be in the beginning of anything, retards it, so that it will be scarce ever be finished: besides, things proceed slowly, where Significators are pointed in Sagittary, Capricorn, Aquary or Pisces: or who are the Lords of them, whether they be slow of Course; in Aries or Scorpio they are not quite so dilatory. In Leo they hasten business; more in Taurus or Libra; but most of all in Gemini or Virgo.


Essential dignity vs. debility of malefics:
Quote:
The 40th is, To consider if an Infortune, whether he be Significator or not, be Peregrine; that is, not in any of his Dignities, for then his malice is increased; but when in his Dignity it somewhat abates it; that is in his House, Exaltation, or Terms; but in his Triplicity or Face very Little, and in Hayz least of all.

The 41st is, If an Infortune, being Significator, be in his own House or Exaltation, or in his own Terms or Triplicity, or in Angles or Succedent Houses; for by all these means he is fortified, and shall be counted strong as a Fortune.
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Olivia



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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't seen Saturn well-behaved in natal charts rx, even in Capricorn. I have Saturn in 1 in Sag, stationary retrograde, in term and face, and it certainly hasn't been well-behaved, even though it's partile sextile to Jupiter in Libra (which also puts them in strong reception by exaltation and rulership).

Robert Zoller has Sun in Aquarius opposite Saturn in Leo rx, and says that being in detriment actually restrains some of Saturn's malice.

Quote:
Now this is a curious thing because a malefic planet such as
Saturn in Leo in poor zodiacal state is a nasty planet. Saturn
in Leo is a troublemaker and is trying to stir up difficulties. It
would like to cause greater harm but it cannot effect its full
nature because it is in a solar Sign and therefore it is, as it
were, very upset and waxed wrath so to speak, but it cannot
really effect as much danger and difficulty as it would like to.


He goes on with a similar description of Mars in Libra.

I guess we'll have to keep looking at our horaries.
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elumen



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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am quite familiar with manifestations of Saturn in Leo and Saturn in Cancer, as the generation of my parents have this. My parents had pretty fortunate lives, not without their struggles of course, but nothing really really challenging. My mom has Saturn in Leo (D) conjunct her natal Sun in Leo in the 5H but close to 6H cusp, and my dad has his Saturn D (ruler of Asc) in Cancer in the 7H. I'd say most challenges for them were in relationships sector.
Also having closely observed Mars in Libra and Sun in Libra in many close relationships of mine, I feel they just make the native less decisive, confident and powerful in action, and actually quite often bring violence to them (Mars in Libra).

P.S. Since i ran my job horary (mentioned earlier in this thread and in which i got Saturn rX), I got a job in my old field, which generated a lot of money for me, but I struggled psychologically more than ever as I went through it. I'm happy it is over, and am working on my dissertation.
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Tanit
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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia - that's interesting about Saturn under a solar sign. I always think of Hitler, although his was not retrograde (it had gone direct the week before and was a bit slow) and was elevated in the 10th. Strange to think that retrograding Saturn might help, but Bonatti seems to think so (if retro and combust it has basically no power to do bad).

So it sounds like the main theory is that a Saturn essentially ill dignified might be restrained from causing harm by being retrograde (he is less accidentally able to inflict his essential debility). But this means when he is essentially well dignified he might be further restrained by being retrograde (he is sort of double restrained because essential dignity restrains his malice already and there is more good to gain, although not the level of a benefic)? I would think the better influence would be the essentially good Saturn retro because the essentially bad one still has bad to it, and even when retro it might still manifest somehow (especially if it represents a recurring issue).

I have a stationary direct peregrine Saturn, although he has sect, is received by his ruler by trine and is cadent. I would say he is very severe and cold sometimes via my own personality but especially what I feel from others at times (he rules the 7th in the 3rd house of communications), and also impacts my finances, since I have a Moon-Saturn square from the 6th house. My sisters all have detrimented or fall Saturns angular and I think I have been more "lucky" than they have (they have major family burdens, especially the two Cancer ones), although I also have more Jupiter in my chart and am more independent-minded (aka, selfish!).

A retrograde planet usually returns light (often because of internal conflict when it is a person). If Saturn is a "destroyer" of influence in a chart (meaning he is not a significator for the matter but is collecting an influence or prohibiting, etc.), he possibly cannot destroy, as he returns the light rather than destroys it. He might still represent an obstacle or roadblock, but not an ending. That is what I am starting to wonder anyway. Of course, Saturn retro can also show a recurring issue or returning to a previous situation, such as Elumen's old job that she returned to briefly for financial reasons rather than out of actually wanting to work there (hardship causing her to take on a Saturnine burden).
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Olivia



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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strangely, I was looking at Hitler's chart the other night - I think he's something of an exception as his horrible Saturn exactly conjuncts his possibly even worse Mars/Venus conjunction in Taurus by antiscion.

I'm also not entirely convinced that well-dignified malefics are good things - I think a lot is going to depend on the house they're in, and the house they rule. For example, I can't really see Saturn or Mars on 7 as a good thing. I suppose if it's not only well-dignified but superbly aspected, you might end up with a marriage partner who's older and wiser, or perhaps a military hero (the kind who came by it defending the innocent or something else truly honourable), but mostly I have to go with that 'a-ha' moment the first time I read Sahl - Saturn rules misery and Mars rules conflict.

Pretty much seems to hold true, as well as the old maxim that what's good for the planet isn't always good for the person.
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elumen



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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher used to explain the difference (and that's in accord with traditional astrology and based on Morin's method) based on the accidental strength of the planet. So in Hitler's case it the debilitated Saturn is ominous as it is in the 10H, and in square aspect with debilitated Mars in his 7H, which also happens to be the ruler of his Asc (if I'm not mistaken he was a Scorpio rising?) But even if I'm mistaken, he had highly malific planets in square and on the angles. My teacher used to say, "repetition" builds up intensity -- that could explain why he did what he did, as opposed to millions of others with this placement who were not such dark figures in human history.
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Olivia



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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitler had Libra rising. But just as bad, as the Venus half (or third, if you count the antiscial conjunction of Saturn to the Mars/Venus conjunction) was involved. Plus he had a Moon/Jupiter conjunction in Cap.

I was just reading Firmicus, and he says that Saturn on any angle at night is pretty disastrous. 'He destroys wives and children and always predicts grief from loss of relatives'.

One of my clients with Saturn in Cap on the MC experienced the death of his father at age two.

My Saturn on an angle at night (less dignified) has produced pretty much the same thing, just substitute 'husbands' for 'wives' there.

And all those folks with the Saturn/Mars opposition on the ASC/DSC that I seem to attract....

Is sect the missing link? Saturn isn't a nice planet to begin with, but I think I've seen it out of sect way more often than I've seen it in sect, for whatever odd reason.
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