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librafeng
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 Posts: 6 Location: China(PRC)

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: what role does dodecatamoiria and moiria play in Hellenistic 


Hi,everyone in this forum.
According to Hellenistic Astrology,if natal planetary configuration represents one's potential or one's due and lots represent one's fortune or represent whether one can realize his potential.And according to mordern Hellenistic Astrologers, dodecatamoiria represents the final outcome.
Then my question is what role does dodecatamoiria and moiria play in Hellenistic Astrology?Should we use both dodecatamoiria systems(12th/13th) or maybe one system is wrong.And how we use?Should we use every planets' dodecatamoiria to create a new chart or should we analysis them in natal chart?And what about moiria?Does it represent one's fate?
English is not my first language.If there is any mistake in this post or my post makes you unpleasant,please forgive me. 

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Mark Moderator
Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 4986 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: 


Hello librafeng,
Interesting question. I have obviously read about dodecatamoiria in texts like that of Firmicus Maternus. I am also aware it has a Mesopotamian origin. However, I haven't personally worked with them. Hopefully someone well versed in hellenistic technique here such as Steven Birchfield will find the time to respond to you at some point.
This is slightly peripheral to your question on the dodecatamoiria but I just wanted to highlight a thread on the monomoiria I opened here about 18 months ago. There were a lot of helpful responses from other members here.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3638
Please dont worry about the language issue here. Your post is fine. Skyscript has many members from across the world for whom English is a second language.
Regards
Mark _________________ ‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly 

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dr. farr
Joined: 26 Sep 2009 Posts: 276 Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:06 am Post subject: 


Although by no means a "Hellenist" in astrological matters, I use Pauline dodekatemorion (x13) extensively (see some of my postings, eg the Haiti earthquake entry on the mundane forum) Use of Dodek analysis has been traced back to 500 BC (Babylon) I consider dodeks indicative of underlying influences, and that they represent "ramifications"; to me they are of great importance. I apply dodeks not only to planets, but also (depending upon the circusmstances) to asc degree, mc degree, Lunar nodes, and Lots/Parts degrees. I have been experimenting with monomorionsthey seem also to reveal subtle connections of significant value.
I do not use the dodeks to setup a new chart, but as an analytical tool for all charts (natal, progressed, horary, mundane, katarchic) In addition to dodeks I also use the Manilius decans, and the duodenaries (1/12ths of signs), for additional insights (and of course, extensive use of Lots/Parts and stars) At the same time, I (personally) do not use terms, bounds, nor do I pay (much) attention to mutual reception; I also have my own unique way of estimating relative planetary dignity/debility (Note: all of these personal practices of mine are open to a variety of objections from both Hellenistic and Traditionalist philosophies: when I post examples of my practices, I do so only for the curiosity of Skyscript members, not as suggestive of what they should door even consider doingin their own practices!) 

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astrojin
Joined: 15 Nov 2005 Posts: 469

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:21 am Post subject: 


Hello librafeng,
Quote:  Should we use both dodecatamoiria systems (12th/13th) or maybe one system is wrong. And how we use? 
It is my opinion (my conjecture only!) than there is only one version of duodekatemoria and I think that with multiplication by 12 or 13 gives rise to the “mistake”.
I think the ancient Hellenistic Astrologers meant to subdivide the signs into 12 segments (and not 13). Why 12? Simply because the whole zodiac has 12 signs of equal sizes, it seems logical for the Greeks (who loved geometry, symmetry, etc.) to further subdivide the signs into 12 equal segments too.
If the 12th division of the zodiac has 30 equal portions (that we call degrees), then 12 equal segments of one sign would have 2.5 degrees for each portion (each is then called a duodekatemorion which simply means 1/12th of a sign). The first duodekatemorion will have the same sign as the sign itself and the following sign (according to zodiacal order) will take up the next duodekatemorion and so on and so forth.
As an example assuming I am dividing the 30 degrees of the sign Cancer:
0 to 2.5 deg Can, duodeka = Can
2.5 to 5 deg Can, duodeka = Leo
5 to 7.5 deg Can, duodeka = Vir
7.5 to 10 deg Can, duodeka = Lib
10 to 12.5 deg Can, duodeka = Sco
12.5 to 15 deg Can, duodeka = Sag
15 to 17.5 deg Can, duodeka = Cap
17.5 to 20 deg Can, duodeka = Aqu
20 to 22.5 deg Can, duodeka = Pis
22.5 to 25 deg Can, duodeka = Ari
25 to 27.5 deg Can, duodeka = Tau
27.5 to 30 deg Can, duodeka = Gem
Let’s say that I have Moon in 9deg30min of Cancer. According to the table above 9deg30min belong to the duodekatemorion of Libra (ruled by Venus) because 9deg30min falls between 7.5 to 10 degrees.
Using this table is cumbersome (you’ll need to remember that the start of the duodekatemorion is the sign itself). So, we calculate using multiplication.
We can do this via two methods:
1. Multiply the degree to 12 and add back the deg or
2. Mathematically the above is the same if we simply multiply the degree by 13
Someone else will have to show the multiplication method here but it should be the same as the one figured out using the table above! 

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dr. farr
Joined: 26 Sep 2009 Posts: 276 Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: 


I think we may have a confusion over terms here: Astrojin is absolutely correct in his description of sign 1/12ths: they are 2.5 degrees each, and they do start with the sign itself. Greek term for the 1/12th division of a sign is dodekatemorion (Vedic astrology refers to these 2.5 degree divisions as dwadashama's; certain modern astrologers refer to them as "dwads" or "duads"see for example the "Decans + Dwads" thread on the Astro.com Forum under "Other Branches of Astrology")
However, there was a special TECHNIQUE used by such as Firmicus Maternus and Paulus of Alexandria which was also called "dodekatemorion", which was applied not to divisions of signs, but instead to determine a degreepoint calculated from the original degree point of a planet (or angle, cusp, Lot, etc). This technique is different than 1/12th sign division. There were 2 such ancient techniques:
A) The "By 12" technique (Valens, Maternus, etc):
degree (of the sign) in which (lets say) a planet is posited, multiplied by 12, then subtracting 30 degrees for each forward sign from the result (counting the sign the planet is posited in as the first 30 degrees to be subtracted)
Example:
Moon posited at 11 degrees Pisces. What is its "By 12" dodek?
11 (degrees) x 12 (the multiplier) = 132; subtract 30 for each sign (starting with Pisces) = 4 signs (Pisces+Aries+Taurus+Gemini); this leaves 12 leftover (1324 signs of 30 degrees=120; 132 minus 120 leaves 12 leftover);
+therefore the "By 12" dodek of the Moon = 12 degrees Cancer
B) The "Pauline" technique (Paulus Alexandrinus, Olympiodorus, etc):
degree (of the sign) in which (lets say) a planet is posited, multipled by 13, then subtracting 30 degrees for each forward sign from the result (counting the sign the planet is posited in as the first 30 degrees to be subtracted)
Example:
Mars posited at 26 degrees Scorpio. What is its Pauline dodek?
26 (degrees) x 13 (multiplier) = 338; subtract 30 for each sign (starting with Scorpio then going forward in the zodiac) = 11 signs
(Scorpio+Sagittarius+Capricorn+Aquarius+Pisces+Aries+Taurus+Gemini
+Cancer+Leo+Virgo); this leaves 8 leftover (33811 signs of 30 degrees=330; 338 minus 330 leaves 8 leftover);
+ therefore the Pauline dodek of Mars = 8 degrees Libra.
This is whyto avoid confusion of term meaningsI use the word "duodenary" for sign 1/12ths, and the words "Pauline dodekatemorion" (which I usually abbreviate as "PD") when I am referring to the technique described above.
(PS: I only use the Pauline dodek technique as described above) 

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zoidsoft
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 970 Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: 


The 13th part is symbolic of the Sun / Moon synodic cycle. This is because in the time it takes for Moon to come back to the same degree a month later, the Sun has moved forward one sign, so the Moon has to go through a 13th sign to reach conjunction with the Sun again. Both types of twelfth parts are reflective of the idea of having some part reflected within the whole and the whole reflected within the part. Hint: the lights are said to represent "one's all" in Valens (or "the whole"). Bonatti says that the Sun has power akin to being in one's own bounds in the Solar half of the zodiac (Leo  Capricorn) and the Moon has the same (Aquarius  Cancer). This is a clue that you are dealing with something that has a nature contrary to the nature of an arabic part (or allotment). Robert Schmidt has some theories about the reasons for these and what they represent based upon Platonic metaphysics. _________________ Curtis Manwaring
Zoidiasoft Technologies, LLC 

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astrojin
Joined: 15 Nov 2005 Posts: 469

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: 


Hello,
I concur with dr. farr's response. I am aware of the dodeks (multiply 12 and 13) outlined by Firmicus/Valdens and Paul of Alexandria but these dodeks are not discussed in detail by those authors (I mean the delineation part  not that the 12th division dodek is discussed!). I am not comfortable using these multiplication dodeks because
1) I cannot relate to the multiplication by 12 and 13 (I mean, I can't find the theoretical reason to multiply anything by anything except in harmonics astrology but that's modern
2) If I were to use any of these 2 multiplication dodeks, I do not have a good reason to prefer one to the other.
To dr. farr:
Why do you prefer Pauline dodek? Have you discovered the subtle differences between Firmicus/Valens and Pauline dodeks?
Thank you! 

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dr. farr
Joined: 26 Sep 2009 Posts: 276 Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:56 am Post subject: 


In the Paulus book "Late Classical Astrology" (pages 4041 and pages 99103) Paulus gives his reasoning for multiplying by a factor of 13 rather than by 12. He also gives the purpose of using the dodeksie, to gain additional insight regarding celestial factors influencing a planet (or Lot, etc) When I read this material several years ago, I was impressed by his reasons (and I did notice that these ancient concepts were actually similar in essence to modern ideas regarding harmonics); I tried out this technique and found it to be highly revealing (for me) in actual practice. Since then I have extensively applied the Pauline dodek technique in astroanalysis, having found it to be particularly valuable in my field of astrotherapeutics. 

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