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Natal astrological influences on non-human mammals?

 
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Do you believe natal astrological influences are operative in the lives of mammals other than humans?
Yes
72%
 72% 
No
18%
 18% 
Cant's say
9%
 9% 

Author Message
dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:16 am    Post subject: Natal astrological influences on non-human mammals? Reply with quote

Are natal astrological influences operative in the lives of non-human mammals (such as whales, apes, dolphins, dogs, monkeys, cattle, cats, horses, etc.)?
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Bill



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Ireland

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm happy using astrology with animals (some of my clients are horses).

However, I'm one of those people who conceptualizes astrological processes as essentially cognitive, requiring humans (i.e. astrologers) to mediate them. I don't believe in "natal astrological influences".

As far as the heavens are concerned, I would say that astronomical/astrophysical (rather than astrological) influences are operative in the lives of non-human animals.

On the other hand, astrological concepts and techniques can be brought to bear on the context of an animal's life, generating insights to supplement rational and common sense assessments. Putting them all together, one sees more.

I suppose that means my answer is 'No', even though I have worked as an astrologer with animals.
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill wrote:
As far as the heavens are concerned, I would say that astronomical/astrophysical (rather than astrological) influences are operative in the lives of non-human animals.
The issue depends on how astrology is believed to work, which can be viewed as value or fact. If it's the former then the distinction astronomical/astrophysical vs. astrology is necessary, if it's the latter then there's no need to distinguish between the two.
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Bill



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that would seem to be true Eddy, which means that one's answer is guided by philosophical perspectives.

What fascinates me more is the question of how astrologers are believed to work, rather than how astrology 'works'. I consider what astrologers are able to do with astrology as having a functional value.

In the context of the question originally asked, I'm not sure that I'd associate astrology with the word 'fact', though it does depend on how one defines that word.

That astrology exists is a fact; the same is true for mathematics. They have an existence in human cultural contexts as conceptual systems, and everything else that materializes from that. But is the mathematical constant Pi in an orange, or in the idea of an orange as conceptualized by mathematicians?

On the other hand, it is a fact that water runs downhill, or that if let fall, a stone will drop to the ground. These don't require any explanation to be accepted as material facts - one would expect a maximum degree of human inter-subjective consensus on the matter. If one wishes to provide an explanation of such facts, then that may or may not be given the status of a truth.

I think scientific explanations acquire the status of material facts, but really it seems to me that they are more like dense truths, whose density is a function of explanatory value. As such, astronomy and astrophysics are replete with dense truths. The existence of the four elements was presumably held to be a fact by Aristotle, though I would see it as a dense truth whose explanatory value was undermined in time.

Personally, as a contemporary western astrologer I find it difficult to see where the dense truths are in astrology, and so I place it in a different category to astronomy and astrophysics.

This categorical differentiation is only amplified when one considers the immiscible nature of astrology and astronomy as indicated by how they are practiced, their purposes, and the foci of their attention (for example astronomy and science in general are used to model what is quantifiable and repeatable or reproducible, while astrology in practice is centrally concerned with the assessment of qualities in relation to unrepeatable and unique events, entities or processes).

Accordingly, I see astrological knowledge, truths, and understanding as existing in relation to an applied conceptual system which has evolved in various forms within human cultures, having been motivated by purpose. They reflect in a particular way the nature of human cognition. Astrological concepts structure astrological understanding; scientific concepts don't. Astrological truths (which are not very dense) can be completely untrue when considered in relation to another conceptual system such as a modern scientific one. I don't see this as a problem, though I can understand why others might. The question for me is whether the conceptual system has a functional value when applied, and in terms of fulfilling the purpose which motivated its emergence in the first place.

Of course I think astrology does have a functional value, because that is where my experience has led me. It is why I continue to practice astrology. I believe that astrology can be applied to any subject matter that one can imagine, including animal life forms, but also abstract concepts such as ideas, 'stock market confidence' and so on.

I suppose in the end, the choice I have made is to see astrology as a human and necessarily subjective conceptual tool, rather than envisaging it as modeling an objectively embedded, mind-independent feature of external reality operating according to universal 'laws of Nature'.
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relative to astrology, Bill's thoughtful explanation seems to be similar to the Whole System Model concept which I have posted about in other threads, and which applies also to other fields (such as the various alternative medicines like homeopathy, Ayurveda, Oriental medicine, etc)
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a very attractive side to the subjective approach Bill, which necessarily will be involved when dealing with humans. The concepts of dense truths as in science perhaps can't be applied to astrology. Like in your example of Aristotle, science evolves through new truths that confirm or supersede the old truths.

The developement of astrology is quite different, it evolves and adapts to the time spirit but much of the basis remains the same. Apart from several alternatives most use 12 houses and 12 signs etc.

Quote:
This categorical differentiation is only amplified when one considers the immiscible nature of astrology and astronomy as indicated by how they are practiced, their purposes, and the foci of their attention (for example astronomy and science in general are used to model what is quantifiable and repeatable or reproducible, while astrology in practice is centrally concerned with the assessment of qualities in relation to unrepeatable and unique events, entities or processes).
However, I think that although the immiscibility of the nature astrology and astronomy the use of the exact positions of the planets for an exact time and place reveals the attempts of mixing the two. Hence the reason I believe there must be 'something' that connects us with the planets. This contradiction withholds me from an entirely subjective approach.

This is why I can see as a problem that,
Quote:
Astrological concepts structure astrological understanding; scientific concepts don't. Astrological truths (which are not very dense) can be completely untrue when considered in relation to another conceptual system such as a modern scientific one.
Although I can accept that in a certain culture certain qualities will have a completely different meaning than in other cultures, and this certainly also would fit with dr. Farr's Whole System Model, I still have the (vain?) hope that some universal 'truth' might be possible.

To return to the question of a possible effect of astrology on animals. Animals might therefore be an ideal study object to see if astrology works unrelated to culture. How to observe this still would be difficult because of our perception which can be biased by culture. However there are a few basic/universal traits in animals which can be measured. For example it would be interesting to see if dominating lions in a pack have several similar traits in their natal charts. To do this would be quite difficult if one wishes to study the animals without humen interference.

Here's a French study on dogs and astrology (also in English). http://www.aureas.org/rams/rams15DogsSFBUS.htm
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