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"Exalted" love question :)
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:44 pm    Post subject: "Exalted" love question :) Reply with quote

But I know you love them! Smile))

There's really nothing special about the question but I decided to post it here because there is something in this chart that i don't understand.

The question and the chart first:

"Will the two of us be together this year?"



The Querent is my cousin, a female and by "be together" she means pretty much everything! Smile "Have sex", "Have a relationship", "Have a casual relationship"...she simply wants to know if anything could happen beetween them.
She used to have a HUGE crash on this man about a year ago but nothing happened. When I asked her "why?", she simply answered: "He wasn't interested in me at all! He didn't like me!". Apparently, he had separated from his ex girlfriend (long relationship) just before she met him and the attention of young good looking women was more interesting to him at the time. She met him in the street last October and she thinks there was something weird about their encounter- it was almost as if it were him who used to be in love with her not so long ago. Yesterday she had a phone call from a headhunter - a very nice firm has offered her a job. Apparently- he'll start working in the same firm this spring too.

In the chart- she is the Venus, he is the Mars. How convenient! Smile My first impression was- this is a clear NO. Their significators are separating (Venus is moving away from Mars)! I did reduce the orbs a bit but both planets are still making a separating aspect to Saturn (in a wide orb)- but this is not a collection as both planets are actually separating , right? So, a second NO. The Moon forms no major aspect to L1 (much less- they don't see each other) and is separating from L7. Yet, another- NO. The Moon is also on the 29,20 degrees but I'm not sure this is really a VOC since it has already started applying to Jupiter. The first applying aspect that could actually mean something to this story.
Based on what she had said about him "chasing" young women last winter- I instantly spotted tis Mercury "applying" to his significator but then I realised-no, it's still too slow; L7 will enter the next sign before the conjuction happens. Much less- Mars will perfect the conjuction wih Jupiter before "meeting" Mercury. So, when we do exclude this Mercury- here's what I find confusing about this chart-

1. All three main significators (l1, l7 and the Moon) are on a treshold of the new sign- what kind of change could this be? (I was even wondering if it may be saying that what she is asking about is just "two steps" ahead of the timeframe she has set for this question! A very trivial guess but still...)

2. All three planets are applying to Jupiter, though The Moon will form the aspect first but, can a co-significator of the question actually behave as a prohibitor? The one thing that does make sence is that Jupiter is the ruler of the 3rd and 6th house (her daily job and communications- she has been offered a job in an advertising-company thought she is a musician, so, her daily job in communications industry could, indeed, be the next connection between them).

3. My favourite part - The venus (l1) is less than 2 degrees away from the point of its exaltation. The Mars is only one degree away from the point of its exaltation and, finally- the Moon is yet to enter the sigm of its exaltation but, again, it's only 3 more degrees to go! What does that mean? (And I'm really curious to hear what you will say here!9

I, then, of course, checked dignities and, thought there is a weak mutual reception between their significators, her ruler is obviously a lot better received by his ruler than the other way around which perfectly fits what she was saying about that day in October (they haven't seen each other since then). Finally, the Moon is currently leaving the sign of the fall of Venus and entering the sign of the fall of Mars. Unfortunatelly, The Venus is about the enter Aries and become weaker too plus- the influence of Mars will probably expand.
It just seems to be an endless circle- everything I see in this chart makes me believe that something is about to be changed OR that something will happen after some kind of a change. Still, I don't see any applying aspects, TOL or collection of light, only significators in very strong positions, a step away from leaving the signs they're in and the Querent's ruler being better received by L7 than the other way around. The Moon seems to be on her side too.


Last edited by aglaya on Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, I've been thinnkig...I completely forgot to include this Jupiter as a potential translator of light! Can it actually translate the light here? I've checked the rules for perfecion/denial just now but I'm still not sure this Jupiter i actually translating the light here because, both planets (significators, L1 and L7) must change signs in order to complete the aspect with Jupiter. Still- they're both within the orb (or at least moiety, it's a stretchy orb for Mars/Jupiter conjuction) and, therefore- in a way, Jupiter is already making that link between significators - they're both applying to Jupiter, Jupiter is the slowest planets here, the connection has been established so, it's all there, only- the aspects will not be perfect before both significators change their signs. Does that matter?
Given that there is a certain mutual reception between significators, that they're well placed and applying to a potential translator in favourable aspects (separating from each other in such aspects too) - if this Jupiter is really a link between the significators than I'm not so sure it is a clear NO, after all. It's a specific situation because of all these "changes" I've been metioning in my previous post but I don't think it looks like a plane NO to me any more. I hope someone will put some light on this for me (be my translator of light, please Very Happy ) because I would like to know more about such situation in general, not just regarding this chart. While reading the rules of denial and perfection, I realized that, according to Lilly, this separating aspect between significators just might be a good sign of the first part of this story (a negative outcome for the Querent the last time she was interested in this person - the last winter).
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aglaya



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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AN UPDATE- not on the situation questioned, though- I came back (to try to wake you all up Smile ) and tell that you just had a great aooportunity to tell me I was either blind or stupid. Smile
The main significators are actually applying!!!!!! Mars will meet Venus (I was obviously very, very tired when I was writing this as I was even cheching the ephemeries while reading the chart!). BUT, they wont form the aspect until they both change signs. Of course, I'm aware that, at this point- it's all about the approach for not everyone would say this actually is frustration because- if we leave this Pluto aside (which, i believe, most of you would)- neither Venus or Mars will be applying to another planet before meeting on 7 degrees of the next sign.

What a soap-opera!
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi

i think there is interference

Venus meets jupiter before Mars catches up.. and Jupiter does not possess martian reception.. so it cannot technically be COL

maybe others think differently

CD
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right about the conjuction- I was looking at the wrong degree - the degree of the N.node. The Venus will perfect the aspect with Jupiter before Mars gets there- they will all be on the same degree (9degrees Aquarius) only Mars will be 20 minutes too late! How about that!? Smile

So, maybe it is a sign of a negative answer but it should be saying something about all this I guess, hopefully, someone will have an idea.

But, also, if Jupiter does prevent the mainn significators from forming an exact aspect- why can't it still be the collector? One of the planets will always reach the collector first, in this case, it would be the Venus but, it is slower than both and they're both applying to it so, the only thing that might act in a destructive way here would be the fact that it's an out of sign aspect both for Venus and Mars. I'm not sure whether it is enough just to see planets applying to the Collector or is it neccessary that they form the exact aspect with it before leaving the sign.
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Tanit



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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused why you would say Venus is about to enter its exaltation. It is about to leave its exaltation and will be in its detriment in Aries and is in a weak house. Venus and the Moon both could be viewed as VOC. As a native Venus in Aries at a critical degree, I know that debility well. They tend to give their heart away very easily and thrive on the thrill of new romances. In my opinon, he will probably be a big "crush" for her. We all know what crushes do to you.

His is the strongest planet in the chart. He seems to hold the cards...
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Tanit



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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been following Venus as well, and you are right that they meet up again, I think some time in June. Venus goes retrograde soon.

But I honestly don't think this chart is fit to judge with such a late degree Moon.
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aglaya



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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit333 wrote:
I'm confused why you would say Venus is about to enter its exaltation. It is about to leave its exaltation and will be in its detriment in Aries and is in a weak house. Venus and the Moon both could be viewed as VOC. As a native Venus in Aries at a critical degree, I know that debility well. They tend to give their heart away very easily and thrive on the thrill of new romances. In my opinon, he will probably be a big "crush" for her. We all know what crushes do to you.

His is the strongest planet in the chart. He seems to hold the cards...


Hi, Tanit333, thanks for this thoughts.
As for this Venus- I'm aware it is leaving the point of the exaltation, and so is the Mars (actually, it's only the Moon that is yet to reach its own point of wxaltation) but, what seemed rather intriguing in the chart was actually the fact that all three planets are so close to the point of their exaltation which, I believe, should be a sign of a strong position in this situation.

Now, why would you suggest mars is the strongest planet?
This is how I see it- at this point (before leaving the signs they're in at the moment)- they're both rather strong only- her ruler (the Venus) is way better received by his ruler (the Mars). So, when translated into the language of the reality- she should be "stronger". (She does think he likes her now, this chart just might be saying he actually does but I think what she generally wants is to hear that- everyone would want to hear that, right? Smile And, given that his signicator is not so well received by venus- it's pretty much clear that she doesn't fancy him as much as she just wants to be wanted- exalting hertself). You're right about them rushing into new loves easily.
But, then, you're also right that- once they leave the signs they're currently in- she will become weaker. And under his "controll". That I don't like because I wouldn't want to see the "last winter episode" happening twice because she, indeed, was completely smitten with him and has suffered pretty much over this story.

The Moon- yap, it's all about the approach, isn't it, I think that's what brings most confusion into my thoughts in Horary. Some would just say it's a VOC- the chart is not fit to be judged, others would, on the other hand, say that the Moon is not VOC as long as it has started applying to another planet before leaving the sign. That is why I'm actually glad I posted this chart because it basically contains most of this "extra confusing" things for me. That Jupiter is driving me crazy. Can a planet be a COL if the aspects with the significators will not be pefect before they leave the signs or not?
If it can- is it a prohibitor or a Collector (because, as long as a slower planet to which both significators are applying is considered to be a Collector- one of the significators will always perfect the aspect with the Collector first and, thus, in a way- prevent the positive outcome from happening!!! So confusing! It's almost as if- a slower planet can be a COL if both significators are applying to it (before it starts applying to any other planet) but as long as the significators meet before the aspect with the COL is perfect?! (this sounds so confusing, i Know!).
And there is always more. I remember a topic here on the forum where Mercury (swifter than any of the significators) was applying to both (conjuction) and, some of the members shared the opinion that it was actually evasion while others thought it was a TOL because, once the Mercury reaches the first significator, it will start translating the light to the second sig. Double standars, obviously!

And, though I usually don't pay attention to such things, I did notice that all three planets (l1, L7 and the Jupiter) will meet on 9 degrees of Aquarius- the Querent's Natal Moon is on 9.00 Aquarius.

So, even if this is a negative chart- I'm not sure whether it is suggesting a negative development of the situation or no "activity" at all.
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Tanit



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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mars is the strongest planet according to Lilly's point system.
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aglaya



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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you're right about that!
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An update! Smile

I've just spoken to my cousin and here's how the things look like 2.5 months later. My cousin does not get the job she has applied for. They say there still is a chance though a very small one for her to start working there but it probably won't happen as, in the mean time, she has realised they're not as promising and "stable" as she had thought at first. Plus, she's currently aranging everything to start working in a different sector of the firm she is currently working for so she is not really disturbed by this rejection.
The man from the question had apparently been working in the firm for about a month before the question was asked (only not many people knew about that at the time)- maybe late Moon was suggesting that he was already employed. So, most probably, they won't be seeing each other at all in the end.


Now, let me try find it all in this chart! Smile
I hope including "pro" side of their lives does not mean "going too far" here as the question was triggered by the information that the two of them might start working together in May. So- the Jupiter was a prohibitor. The Jupiter rules the 6th and, since my cousin, just like me, is working outside her field, I thought it was her daily job. but it could also be her colegue, right? nd, from what it seems, another two cologues from her firm will be getting the job she has applied for. The Moon is the ruler of her 10th (new job, bosses) and is the first one to apply to Jupiter (colegues) - her (ex) colegues get the job she wanted and prevent her from getting the job in the Quesited's firm and meeting him again. That could also be explaining the placement of her ruler at the end of the sign and about to enter the sign of her detriment and become retrograde eventually (losing the power). She was almost 100% sure she'd get the job ( they said they wanted her to work for them) - probably because she was still tightly conjucting the point of her exaltation at the time the question was asked. Entering the sign of the exaltation of the Sun was maybe anouncing that she'd be exalting the future bosses (gerenal authorities) hoping they'd give her the job she wanted. Also, being transfered to a different sector of her current firm is a sort of a change.

As for the Quesited- he indeed was the the strongest significator and, though it was a love question, I can't help but to think that it was the reason for him to get the job unlike the Querent. Also, his ruler was in his 10th (his career), ruled by saturn, exalting himself and about to change signs but to stay in the rulership of the Saturn, in Saturn's term and n the face of the Sun (general authorities again). So, maybe it was indicating that he was already there and would be working there in the future too. Maybe!

What still doesn't "make sense" Smile)) is that, the Moon (the Querent's L10) was about to eneter Taurus i.e. that the job really wanted her. Probably, some "higher" powers have wanted her colegues to get it instead of her (the Moon applying to the Jupiter).
And, second of all- how come both the Moon (the rx L10) and the Saturn (the Quesited's derived L10) are actually separating from the Quesited's ruler yet he does get the job? Unless, of course- it's another sign that he had actually been working there before the question was asked?!

Well, now that I look at this chart, I just can't help but to think- he really was interested in her and, if it weren't for the prohibition caused by her not being able to spend more time with him- tre was a good chance they'd have some kind of a romantical relationship.

anyways- just thought you might want to hear the update. Smile
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mojo



Joined: 13 Apr 2009
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

The question is 'Will the two of us be together this year?'

She is Venus and the Moon
He is Mars and the Sun (because the question concerns the relations)

The Moon (her feelings) is changing the sign in less than one degree and entering the detriment of Mars. Her emotional side will hate him soon. Venus (her mind) is leaving Pisces where it is in the triplicity and face of Mars and Venus is just to enter Aries where Venus will love (domicile of Mars) and exalt him (the Sun).
What about him? Mars is in the triplicity of Venus and in the detriment of the Moon. There's something he likes in her, but there's something that he hates. The Sun shows no interest in her. Mars after changing the sign will be only in the face of Venus.
I see no way that their significators could meet each other.
OK, let's have a look at the Part of Relations (Asc+Dsc-Venus). It's placed in 18 Libra. The Part is in the domicile of Venus, this relations seems good for her. But what about the man? The Part hates both significators of the man, being placed in the detriment of Mars and the fall of the Sun. There's nothing good for him in this relations.
And one more point...there's a fixed star Vindemiatrix close to the Ascendant. It deals with divorce and separation. No good for relations.
Well, it's a sort of a long-time question and maybe my approach is not accurate but what I've written seems clear.
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aglaya



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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what you've written about the Mars being in the triplicity of Venus and concluding that he doesn't reall ylike her I take it that you'd consider the Quesited's significator being in the Querent's term(face/triplicity) to be a sign of his affection for her! Am I right?
Because, the way I'd look at the Mars (in this case, at least) when found in the term(or any other dignity) of the Venus would be as a sign of the Querent's affection for the Quesited rather that the other way around. The L7 being in the triplicity of the L1 = the Quesited is RECEIVED BY the Querent or, in other words- it is she who likes/receives him. Same goes for the mutual affection between the phisical bodies or their mutual sexual attraction when examined through the (potential) mutual reception of her venus and his Sun.
So, from that perspective- I'd examine how the Venus is received by his ruler and, it looks like she is well received- she in the triplicity and the face of Mars.

Though, I'm aware that some astrologers would strictly suggest it was the other way around. Still, like I said- I'm not sure if I've understood your approach well. Smile

No, the significators can not meet because the Jupiter (or the Jupiter/Moon aspect) is obviously preventing that from hapening and now we have found out why - they will simply stay distant and will not work together (the querent took the "working together" option for granted- that's how the question was triggered). Of course, the Venus was yet to turn into a retrograde motion and eventually meet Mars but- only after the prohibition takes place. As a matter of fact- the Mars and the Venus are finally conjuct now. Strange- as she has received the rejection note yesterday! Smile

I am aware that the Moon is also the co-ruler of the question and the planet of feelings but, I just couldn't help but to use it as her L10 because it is so obvisly aspecting the ruler of her colegues who get the jon instead of her and prevent her form meeting him again. The Jupiter, the prohibitor- was the one to prevent that from happening and it seems like the Jupiter's aspect with the Moon was telling a part of the story- it was the job (or her not getting it) that has, in the end- played the biggest role here.
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mojo



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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aglaya,

Really it's not my approach, it seems to be Frawley's.

When one planet is placed in the dignities of other planet, it likes what that other planet signifies. The degree of this likeness is changing according to the type of dignity: love (domicile), exaltation speaks for itself, triplicity (liking), terms (a lesser degree of liking), face (almost indifferent).

Quote:
The L7 being in the triplicity of the L1 (??? of the Moon you probably wanted to say)= the Quesited is RECEIVED BY the Querent


That's right. I'd rather give an example that seems close to life. Mars (L7) is in the triplicity of the Moon (significator of the querent) and at the same time in her detriment. Mars is recieved by the Moon, it's like a guest and a host. Mars likes something here, the dinner, for instance (in the triplicity of the Moon) but the house is dirty and cockroaches are scurrying here and there (in the detriment of the Moon). However good the dinner is, all that untidy stuff will cross that good impression of the dinner off (the detriment is stronger than the triplicity).
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aglaya



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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is what I was asking- whether you were using the Frawley's "system". Because, i don't! Smile)))

I am basically keen to believe that a planet being inside a certain sign denotes the interest of the that planet in whatever the sign and its ruler are representing (if L1 is in the sign or the house ruled by the Quesited's significator than I'd assume it was the Querent who is interested in the Quesited). Although, the Venus aspecting Mars from Aries (as mentioned in Deb's article about Lilly's rules of reception) could also mean that the Venus is received by that Mars in his own house. No strict rules!
As for the exaltation- I'm trying to make notes and impressions on that part trying to find the "pattern"- so most of the times, I've seen the Querent's ruler exalting the planet that signifies what the Querent is hoping for or from whom/what he is expecting something etc. Of course, that is just my impression but I'm still more keen to believe that the planet is actually "exalting" something/someone than "being exalted" by that something or someone. But I'm still learning after all! Smile I hope this is undrstandable! Smile)))

But, as for the dignities- my approach would basically be the reversed "dinner story" Smile))). If the ruler of the Querent is in any of the essential dignities of the Quesited, then my first "conclusion" would be that she is well received by the Querent rather than that she likes him. I'd search for the signs of her affection on the other side- by checking his placement and where from are the planets aspecting each other (if they do form an aspect).

Well, that is how I've been taught but it has worked in many, many cases so I'll stick to that for now or at least start from there. though, there's always more than just dignities that will lead towards the accurate reading.


As for the quoted part about the L1/L7 and the Moon- I wasn't sugesting anything in particular - it was just an example "if we'd find the ruler of the 1st in the terms of the ruler of the 7th..." Wink
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